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36. Ming I / Darkening of the Light

M

maremaria

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Unpolished thoughts :

Looking again in the picture Luis posted and LiSe’s image in 36 the eclipse seems that is pictured .
Having in mind, how important is the sun for people and all beings life must be a very frigthening event the sun eclipse and in Luis picture that fear is clearly depicked. The man is runing away and the animals sencing the effects of that phenomenon are screaming (shrieking)

LiSe’s 36 image shows a sun a moon and an arrow .
Maybe Sun + Moon = eclipse and maybe the arrows are used to kill the dragon that eats the sun .
Probably a very simplistic thought but focusing just to this two images ( and ingoring the texts for a while) ,is it safe to say that when we face situations that our “fire” is threatened by something/someone like the Sun is threatened from the dragon then it is our responsibility to save our own fire ( use those arrows to kill the dragon)

Does the arrow imply an aggressive act or just strenghts the concept of “protect” ?
Does 36 advice to withdrawn and if yes what is the dirrerence with 33 ?
And the trigram of earth what says here ? Is the carrying "mother" who provides nurisment and selter to all creatures or something else ?

:confused:
Maria
 

rosada

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THE IMAGE
The light has sunk into the earth:
The image of DARKENING OT THE LIGHT.
Thus does the superior man live with the great mass:
He veils his light yet still shines.

The upper trigram K'un means the mass. Amid the multitude are the two dominating rulers of the hexagram, as the superior men. Their behavior is explained on the basis of the relative positions of the two trigrams: Earth stands over light, and this suggests veiling of the light. But the lower trigram Li is not injured in its character by this combination. Its light is veiled, not extinguished.
 

ravenstar

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Hi raven

Ricardo, instead, said to me: "wonderful"....

When you acknowledge the darkness around you and the light inside you (sign 36), is because you are in the middle of the process to be able to be inside the archetype without being dominated by it anymore. Archetypes are like the dark earth (dark here has no negative meaning), but you can preserve the light of consciousness (the fire within).

In that moment, that answer (both the Yi's answer and Ricardo's interpretation) was a great help for me. I don't know if this old memory coud be useful for you.

Best wishes

P.S. On the other hand, some would say: "hey! see how wrong the result was, being now Jesed as Jesed is now":rofl: :bag:

Wow! Thanks Jesed, this made so much sense to me and has helped me to understand Hex 36 alot more. I appreciate you taking the time to answer my ongoing questioning mind :rolleyes:

Very appreciated
ravenstar
 

rosada

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Thoughts on the difference between 33. Retreat and 36. Darkening of the Light:
It seems to me that Retreat is about stepping back from a situation where the energies are going off in a direction you don't choose to flow with. Like let's say you've decided to participate in a protest march. It starts out peacefully enough but the energies start to build and before you know it you're being swept along by a mob. You don't try to turn the mob around, you just slow down and let everyone else who wants to storm City Hall rush past you. By then moving along at your own speed (34) you eventually make it to City Hall and infact you may have moved with such dignity that the mayor actually chooses to speak with you (35). Now you have a chance to actually influence, but not quite yet, first you have to infiltrate the situation, understand the mindset of these people so we have 36. Darkening of the Light where instead of Retreating, you are staying there with the group but no one knows how you really feel. You can be like a spy. I think of how 7.The Army advises that one needs to be right there in the midsts of the troups inorder to lead them. I see 36. as getting in with the opposing army, in order to eventually introduce ideas to them that if presented up frount would be immediately rejected. By hiding your light, becoming like family,37, etc. etc. until we get to 49 finally you are acknowledged and listened to> On your own day you will be believed!
 

Sparhawk

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There is one guy in Chile, from who I had learned some tools of interpretation. His name is Ricardo Andree. The jokes I made to Luis in this thread was related to a long dialogue between Luis and I about not taking too seriously the yi's studies, and the yi's schools, and the yi's "masters". And Ricardo has a lot to do with this friendly and not-to-serious dialogue.

Oh boy, that's a HUGE can of worms!! :rofl:

I must say though, having read his books, I came to really appreciate Ricardo, not because of his personal claims, that I've always seen as outlandish, but because his writing shows a guy that really loves the classic and is a good interpreter of the Yi. For that I mean that, regarding interpretation of the Yi, I haven't found great disagreements with him, or many at all, for that matter. People with a personality like mine will always have a problem with his claims, but, those new to it, that can get past that aspect, will find a good teacher to learn the classic.


P.S. On the other hand, some would say: "hey! see how wrong the result was, being now Jesed as Jesed is now":rofl: :bag:

Hey, some will say that there are bad students, not bad teachers... :rofl:
 
M

maremaria

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Hi Rosada,

Thank you for your input. Your example of the protest bring me in mind the protest of those Chilean women dancing the “cueca” with the photos of their “disappeared” husbands or sons on their chest . During the dictatorship years, dark years, their freedom to express their ideas, believes and protest was diminished but they find a way to express their opposition by hiding their “light” in that “dance” .
We had also in my country a military dictatorship many years ago. Music, literature, theatrical plays and arts in general, were the “caves” for some people to keep safe (for future use or just keep it safe) their fire without having to abandon their individuality.

During the last solar eclipse, a experiment take place in my country. Scientist want to examine to eclipse’s effects in the environment, plants, and organisms. Among other interesting founds they mentioned that plants change their functions as it was night during the event and some sea organism living deep in the sea they move upwards to be closer to the light. Both plants and organism adapted to the new situation.

Maybe 36 is like being in a room and suddenly the lights goes down. At the beginning you cannot see anything and it is frustrating. If you immediately react and start searching for candles or torch probably you’ll fall in the furniture and get hurt. But if you wait for a while, your eyes will adapt to the new situation and then you can move easier.

Maria
 

mudpie

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Hi Rosada,

Maybe 36 is like being in a room and suddenly the lights goes down. At the beginning you cannot see anything and it is frustrating. If you immediately react and start searching for candles or torch probably you’ll fall in the furniture and get hurt. But if you wait for a while, your eyes will adapt to the new situation and then you can move easier.

Maria

I think it infers a bit more danger than that. a nasty image that comes to mind for me is Virginia Tech and the murders by Richard Speck many years ago. Richard Speck broke in to a dorm and murdered all the nurses there with the the exception of one who hid under the bed -the whole time the gruesome acts were happening. and in Va Tech, one person saved his life by playing dead under a heap of bodies. in both cases, it was dire that the two stay low and act as if they were dead, they had no choice when the darkness was in power. but after wards both emerged unscathed and able to bring the details to the police
 
M

maremaria

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I think it infers a bit more danger than that.

Well, I'm not sure about that. Still have difficulties to understand 36 , but I thing that the danger maybe isn't always life-threatening. Not always “dark black” but also “grey”.
I wanted to ask you, Those examples you posted could be 33 ?
I’m trying to find an answer on the difference between 33 and 36. Still not clear to me.:duh:

Maria
 

hilary

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They do have a lot in common - how to save yourself from danger. But at the least, the tactics are different: 33 leaves the situation, like a hermit retreating up a mountain; 36, like ***i, stays in the midst of it. The hermit isn't hiding his difference, just translating it into distance.

About suns and arrows - there is a Chinese archer hero called Yi (not the same character, sorry) who rescued the world when the ten suns all rose at once by shooting them down. He had to be stopped, though, before he shot down the tenth. If I remember rightly, Steve Marshall speculates that this myth may hide an earlier form, in which he was actually saving the sun by shooting the crow that was eating it during an eclipse. Oh, and a crow, or at least some black bird or other, is the emblem of the Shang, at whose court ***i hid his light.

I wouldn't like to guess how all this should be blended into a single interpretation, but it does seem to be connected.

Edit...
OK, the obscenity filter is a bit hyperactive. ***i. Prince Ji. Good grief.
 
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frank_r

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Does 36 advice to withdrawn and if yes what is the dirrerence with 33 ?

Hallo Maria,

For me the difference between 33 and 36 is that 33 is a active withdrawel. The outside trigram is heaven so very active but staying inside on the same spot(inside trigram is mountain). You will keep your personal idea's but you retreat in a active way. Here there is a strong connection between the third line and the top trigam.

As for 36 is the outside trigram earth, so be totally receptive be aware of the little changes. And the inside fire, as fire has a yin line in the middle so there is only activity when there is receptivity in the centre. When there is no matter(idea's) in the inside there is no fire. Here you have to be so receptive that you become part of the surrounding but from the inside you don't stop glowing. Here there is a strong connecting between the trigram of earth(top trigram) with the second line.

I liked the analogy about the dead bodies from listener about 36
 
M

maremaria

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Thank you listener, Hilary and Frank. You make it more clear to me.

In 36 you have to act like a chameleon Lizard. Adapt you skin colours to the environment to protect yourself form the “enemy” Either green or brown or whatever colour you become you always be a lizard. Not a leave, not a rock or something else.
In 33 on the other hand you have not that luxury so you have to run away. :eek:

I hope Rosada will start soon those threads she has promise us about the trigrams. The traits of each puts a lot of light in understanding the hexagram’s meanings.

Maria
 

rosada

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Let's just start talking about trigrams right here!

K'un: Mass.

Li: Light.

Earth stands over light in this hexagram, so this suggests veiling of the light.

Li below is not injured, however, by having K'un above, so we see the light is only veiled, not extinguished.
--
Comparing this to the trigrams of 33.Retreat..

----- Retreat has HEAVEN above. HEAVEN has a strong upward mobility and therefore
----- automatically retreats from..
-----

----- MOUNTAIN below.
-- --
-- --

This way of looking at the trigrams suggests MOUNTAIN is representing the inferior man and HEAVEN is the superior man. Mountain's nature is to Stand Still whereas Heaven moves forward, thus the superior man, Heaven, can easily move out of range of the inferior man, Mountain.
Another way of looking at the two trigrams would be to consider the lower trigram as how one should behave in view of what the upper trigram says is "out there." That is, when there are strong forces running the show one can avoid getting caught up in them by becoming silent and inaccessible "in here".

I think it's interesting that Wilhelm says of 33., "The superior man keeps the inferior man at a distance, not angrily, but with reserve." I think of "Reserve as meaning, "This space, time is reserved." as in, "I don't have time to get caught up in this nonsence." or, "I'd love to come to your party but I already have something scheduled for that night." With that attitude you are not putting anybody down, just staying focused on your own goals.
--

Considering how 33 and 36 differ in an actual situation. Say you are invited to a dinner party and you know there are going to be people or activities there that you don't want to connect with. 33. says claim you have a prior engagement. 36 says go, but keep a low profile. Interesting that 33.Retreat comes first and 34 has one heading off in directions that seem to be of one's own choosing, but then inevitably one finds oneself in situations where you can't just withdraw so you ultimately have to learn how to be in these situations. Interesting 36. leads to 37. Family, as in sometimes you can't avoid those darn family reunions.
 
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charly

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...In 36 you have to act like a chameleon Lizard. Adapt you skin colours to the environment to protect yourself form the “enemy” ...

María:

1.jpg

A Yin Yang Lizard from Escher.
See: http://library.thinkquest.org/16661/escher/tessellations.12.html

Yours,

Charly
 

charly

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... Music, literature, theatrical plays and arts in general, were the “caves” for some people to keep safe (for future use or just keep it safe) their fire without having to abandon their individuality...
María:

About Ming Yi related with freedom, some people think that «Ming Yi» is a bird and from bird to freedom there is only a step.

H.36 deals with «damage to the eye», according to one of the traditional interpretations. But, as Li Ching-ch'ih has convincingly shown, there is not the slightest doubt that ming-i (4) is the name of a bird. «When the ming-i in its flight droops its wings, that means that my lord on his journey for three days will have no food...
_______________________________________
(4) Ming 明may be for the cognate 鳴«singing»

From: Arthur Waley: The book of changes.
Bulletin of the Museum of Far Eastern Antiquities.
See the pdf document in Steve Marshall's page.

As a curiosity
明ming2: / clear, bright / lucidity / to understand /
Some people see it as a SUN and a MOON → by common factor: «bright».
But also «mixed lights», maybe more than one (your own) light → to understand, to be lucid.

夷yi2 / foreigner, barbarian / injury, wound / to kill, to execute /
Some people see it as a sort of ARROW for SHOOTING BIRDS, but there is an oracle bone character like a small person attached to a big one, maybe «mixed people» or «how to pass unnoticed».



I like birds, but I prefer W/B rendition. Among other intriguing combinations there is «lucid wound» maybe the 3rd. eye?

Yours,

Charly
 

Sparhawk

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夷yi2 / foreigner, barbarian / injury, wound / to kill, to execute /
Some people see it as a sort of ARROW for SHOOTING BIRDS, but there is an oracle bone character like a small person attached to a big one, maybe «mixed people» or «how to pass unnoticed».

This is interesting. I spent about two weeks combing through some old journals online and I've seen and downloaded some files that refer to "arrows" in the title. Will see if I can post some information as soon as I have some time to find them (I downloaded hundreds of interesting articles...)
 
M

maremaria

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Hi Charly
I liked the image of Yin-Yang Lizard. If you put it on a white background the white lizards can be seen clear but the black not. The same with a black background where the black one are visible.

As for the rest of the interesting, imo, information you post , Unfortunely I can not say much because my competence regarding the stories behind Yi or Chinese is not enough to cope with the hidden meanings. But I like the 3rd eye idea and "lucid wound" ( inner eye, light, soul, spirit etc…)


rosada : Let's just start talking about trigrams right here!

no, no... You promised Threads ;) :)

Maria
 

rosada

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36.1
Nine at the beginning means:
Darkening of the light during flight.
He lowers his wings.
the superior man does not eat for three days
On his wanderings.
But he has somewhere to go.
The host has occasion to gossip about him.

With grandiose resolve a man endeavors to soar above all obstacles, but thus encounters a hostile fate, he retreats and evades the issue, The time is difficult. Without rest, he must hurry along, with no permanent abiding place. If he does not want to make compromises within himself, but insists on remaining true to his principles, he suffers deprivation. Nevertheless, he has a fixed goal to strive for, even though the people with whom he lives do not understand him and speak ill of him.

Trigram LI:
The animal symbol belonging to the trigram LI is the pheasant, hence the idea of flying. The line, being strong, is about to advance.

Trigram K'an:
The nuclear trigram over Li is K'an, danger: hence it is hindered in it's flight. It renounces the idea of sacrificing its principles in order to secure a livelihood; it prefers going hungry to eating without honor.
-Wilhelm

-- --
-- --
-- -- >
----- > nuclear trigram K'an
-- -- >
----- = First line of trigram Li
 

Trojina

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Looking forward to hearing anyones take on or experience with this line as it kinda baffles me a bit.
 

charly

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[line:]... the superior man does not eat for three days on his wanderings. But he has somewhere to go. The host has occasion to gossip about him...
[Comment:]... he has a fixed goal to strive for, even though the people with whom he lives do not understand him and speak ill of him.

-Wilhelm/Baynes
Rosada:

How does the Noble-Young (Superior Man) behave in this line?

  • Noble-Young fasts for three days.
  • In his wanderings he has where to go.
  • As a guest he gets conflictive relations with his host.
  • Noble-Young has a fixed goal in mind.

I believe I know the fixed goal, the only fixed idea that Noble-Youngs have in mind all the time, mostly when they wanders, mostly when they are fasting.

Noble-Youngs think that they have some privileges when they arrive to a place, guests have some privileges remnant of the old matriarchal right that challenge the patience of hosts in times when the new patrialchal right is not yet firmly stablished.

Hosts have a conflict between new law and old uses, they get upset and speaks badly.

Noble-Youngs when arrive to a place have the old right of going to bed with the host's wife. Dangerous affair indeed in new times but an inescapable duty in old communities.

Wilhelm don't tell us this detail but he knows, he darkens his light.

Do you trust me?

Yours,

Charly
 

Trojina

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Well I dunno :confused: Why doesn't he eat for 3 days and why does a man suddenly have wings :eek: It says 'he lowers his wings' Is he an angel, lol I must have missed something basic here. Last time i got this line I was asking if I should go to a day workshop - I didn't go. I had the feeling it wouldn't be right for me. Later on I discovered it definately wouldn't have been.
 

rosada

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To understand this line I went and read the first lines of all the hexagrams that had LI as the lower trigram. All the other hexagrams with LI as the bottom trigram have this line either being very successful - 13.1 - or at least okay, but in hex 36.1 LI meets with Danger. I don't know what the cause is of the danger (geez, Charly, where do you find those stories??) but you certainly have the impression the person blurted out his ideas fully expecting to be applauded, only to find he had insulted his host and he'd better get out of town fast. I read an example of 36.1 that told about a fellow being given an interview and the boss challanged the applicant's ideas. The applicant boldly and brilliantly showed the boss to be wrong, but guess what? The boss didn't hire him.

I like maria's idea that one's eyes can adjust to the dark. Also secrets maybe discovered, revealed. "In darkness, many things come to light."
 
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miakoda

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Although I've gotten 36.1 in the past as a warning that I'm entering a period of great stress in my life, it was most clearly defined for me after the death of my mother last year. I received it several times for my daily reading in the weeks immediately after she died. Not only was it a weary time, but many in the community were discussing her sudden passing, giving an "occasion to gossip." I also saw it again when a friend was assaulted and had to recover on many levels. Whenever I asked the Yi about his well being in the month or so after, the answer was 36.1. Everyone was talking about it, of course, but it was also one of those amazingly literal descriptions, too, because his jaw was damaged and he had difficulty eating.

In every experience I've had or witnessed with 36.1, receiving it presaged a time when it was best to fly under the radar.
 
M

maremaria

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About the eye :

Just found this looking in Li trigram.

“Li is the eye, looking and trying to see, the sense of daylight and of forms and colors” Wilhelm (if my messy notes are correct)


About : “the superior man does not eat for three days”

Never got 36.1 but I know very well – in a twisted manner- “the superior man does not eat for three days”.
Sometime ago, for a long period I had to work long hours. Something a bit less that 24/7. Those times I stop eating properly (almost nothing) because of the stress but also because I didn’t want to spend time in inferior things like eating. This would cost time and I couldn’t afford that. ( I thought then)

It felt like I had to reduce all my needs (eat, rest etc ) in order to dedicate myself to the assigned goal.
In my case, seems now, that I “lower my winds” more than I should do (lack of 15).:brickwall:

Maria
 

Trojina

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I'm still wondering why the wings ? Is this a man or a bird ? Or are there two seperate beings here. A man lowers his wings, doesn't eat and people gossip about him - sounds like sulking to me.
 
M

maremaria

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Hi Trojan,

In sailing, when the winds are strong we have to lower the sails otherwise they will be ripped and a sailing boat without sail is useless if there is somewhere we should go.
Maybe this line means something like that. :confused:

No answer about the bird /man. Me confused too. Maybe there is a story behind that line

Maria
 

Trojina

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Thanks Maria, you come up with some interesting associations to the images.
 

charly

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... In sailing, when the winds are strong we have to lower the sails otherwise they will be ripped and a sailing boat without sail is useless if there is somewhere we should go... No answer about the bird /man. Me confused too. Maybe there is a story behind that line...
María:

I believe that the bird is not the Noble-Young, there is a parallelism between:
  • the bird drooping his wings when in fly, for going down, for getting earth.
  • the Noble-Young fasting for preparing himself for become more lucid, also wandering, guesting, an initiation (in search of the 3rd. eye?).

Thus, the Ming-Yi is a bird as Waley says. Maybe the pale bird of freedom under dark circumstances.

I'm sure that there are many stories behind the line.

A sincretic story bird-man: shamans bears bird dressings, Noble-Young will pass through an initiation by fasting and wandering, and masters have the last word. He is like a shaman, bird and man are the same thing. The man and his freedom are the same thing. Sometimes to get low profile is the condition to survive, for being free is condition to be alive.


主zhu3 / host / master / lord /
人ren2 / people /
有you3 / to have /
言yan2 / to speak / word /

zhu ren MASTERS (as a guild)
you HAVE
yan WORD

«The MASTERS HAVE the last WORD»​

An open ended story.
 

rosada

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O Six in the second place means:
Darkening of the light injures him in the left thigh.
He gives aid with the strength of a horse.
Good fortune.

Here the Lord of Light is in a subordinate place and is wounded
by the Lord of Darkness. But the injury is not fatal, it is only
a hindrance. Recue is still possible. The wounded man gives
no thought to himself; he thinks only of saving the others who
are also in danger. Therefore he tries with all his strength to
save all that can be saved. There is good fortune in thus acting
according to duty.

The good fortune of the six in the second place
comes from its devotion to the rule.

One might expect misfortune from the situation, yet the
oracle is, "Good fortune." This is because the line, being yield-
ing, correct, and in the proper place, is equal to the demands of
its position.
-Wilhelm
 

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