37.1

[anemos]

Any thoughts , experiences about line 37.1 ?

thanks

 

[tifa]

Hello Anemos,

My experience with 37.1 is about commitment and trust.

Once, I tried to join an existing group and Yi gave me this moving line as an advice. I had doubts with the group and the leader of the group was a little reluctant to open up. The meeting went all right with a clear take home message in my mind, "everything is in place (for them), if they were to take me in, will I be able to blend well with the existing people? "

Hope it helps!

 

[sooo]

Any thoughts , experiences about line 37.1 ?

thanks

Just that a family/group/clan is not homogeneous like milk, but more like a pizza. It's not the sameness but the uniqueness of each individual that contributes to the whole.

Changing to 53, a flock of geese, made up of individuals which fly together. The Fan Yao is the fledgling, which (as Bradford says) is struggling and criticized. While there's no blame, constructive critique (again pinched from Bradford's version) might save his or her life.

So be an attentive pepperoni, and contribute your own flavor.

 

[anemos]

Thank you both for your replies Hope you don't mind but i need some more times to ponder on them.

Actually, I'm stuck with Wilhelm's " Firm seclusion within the family" , Brad also talks about making clear the rules. So one way , i think, to read this is the importance of making clear the boundaries. a time of negotiations, setting limits, creating the foundation of a unit/team/family etc.

How would you read " Firm seclusion within the family" and especially the word "seclusion".
Does it refer to the private/personal space , the space where other members are not allowed to enter ?

any thoughts?

 

[bradford]

I think "Firm seclusion within the family" is a particularly poor translation of this line.
See my Matrix translation. It's about healthy boundaries that maintain some order and hold the family together. That "regrets pass" means that there is a cost to this - you lose some spontaneity, some of that organic flow, you don't spoil your children with over-permissiveness - they pull their load. Sometimes it's OK if they cry about that.

 

[tuckchang]

For Your reference:

閑xian of 閑有家 (discipline within the family) depicts a wooden board 木 in the middle of a door 門; its original meaning is to build a fence in order to prevent livestock from running away; its extended meaning is to set up the measures of restraint, i.e. discipline.

The last hexagram Ming Yi (36) is a hexagram, wherein a gentleman should conceal his aspirations due to a fatuous king, line 6, ruling the country. 36.6 steps onto the sky at the beginning but later sinks into the earth because of its losing principle (of monarch and subject).

The hexagram Jia Ren (37) is formed after line 4 of Hex 33 (Dun) retreats to position 1. Line 1, the founding line and by which all the lines of Jia Ren from line 1 to 5 are in their proper places, represents the eldest son, the one who usually inherits the family's undertakings in the first place. The family discipline is well set up; the family’s aspiration can be carried on without change and the family's glory can be restored.

The line texts of Jia Ren reveal how to build the family’s glory.


Regards
Tuck :bows:
www.iching123.com

 

[bradford]

I don't see the preposition "within" in that sentence.
Within should not be in the translation.
The word is You - to be, have, hold, will be, not Zai or Nei.
Discipline or boundaries hold the family.

 

[tuckchang]

閑有家 can be literally translated as discipline is available at the family.

Very often the sentence of the text in Chinese is constituted by several single characters and arranged not in accordance with the common syntex, and each sentence is independent from one another. Usually I seek the significance of the text by virtue of the meaning behind the character, the context, the image, the line performance, etc.. In my opinion of the translation of the text, to provide an understanding of the text is the priority, and the rest is the skill of words.

Regards
Tuck :bows:
www.iching123.com

 

[bradford]

閑有家 can be literally translated as discipline is available at the family.

I don't like having to squirm like that, especially to justify something as wrong as "within" is at 37.1. My first recourse, polysemy notwithstanding, is to try out other glosses that are consistent with the rest of the book, and with 有 there are good and meaningful ones to choose from.

 

[sooo]

I think "Firm seclusion within the family" is a particularly poor translation of this line.
See my Matrix translation. It's about healthy boundaries that maintain some order and hold the family together. That "regrets pass" means that there is a cost to this - you lose some spontaneity, some of that organic flow, you don't spoil your children with over-permissiveness - they pull their load. Sometimes it's OK if they cry about that.

Would "healthy boundaries" include boundaries of the individual within the whole, or does it only refer only to the boundaries of the whole and the discipline of the individual?

(I use the whole rather than family or clan because often this line has had nothing to do with my literal family nor any particular group, but rather to do with my own organism, i.e. mind, body, soul, thoughts, feelings, etc. Even the external family or group is related to ones own inner/outer construction.)

To my thinking, while healthy boundaries may apply to the most rigid of traditional family, each individual's own healthy boundaries within a family (inner or outer) also deserve respect, which may require the self discipline of the father or mother or older siblings toward that "fledgling".

This is an example of where original values or mores are not always applicable to every modern application. "Times change, and with them their demands." This doesn't mean to disregard original intent in the broader sense, just not to tie them too tightly to tradition. We live in different times and cultures. It seems anti-productive, if not destructive, to try to force fit every tradition into today's world, unless foot binding of women should also still prevail.

 

[bradford]

Hi Sooo-
Personally I like to leave the metaphor intact and expand the understanding of it instead. None of the metaphors in the Yi need to be taken literally.
I think there are big clues to what this one means in the Fan Yao, 53.1 the flight of the flock to the shore, with the focus on the safety of the little one, and the Zhi Gua, 53, the incremental developments, the educational steps, the training, and the right order that flocking together among birds of a feather requires.

 

[anemos]

Hello Anemos,

My experience with 37.1 is about commitment and trust.

Once, I tried to join an existing group and Yi gave me this moving line as an advice. I had doubts with the group and the leader of the group was a little reluctant to open up. The meeting went all right with a clear take home message in my mind, "everything is in place (for them), if they were to take me in, will I be able to blend well with the existing people? "

Hope it helps!

yes, it does help . thank you Tifa

"commitment and trust to what ?" and "how much I'm wishing to blend into that clan" are the questions in my mind.

 

[anemos]

Just that a family/group/clan is not homogeneous like milk, but more like a pizza. It's not the sameness but the uniqueness of each individual that contributes to the whole.

Changing to 53, a flock of geese, made up of individuals which fly together. The Fan Yao is the fledgling, which (as Bradford says) is struggling and criticized. While there's no blame, constructive critique (again pinched from Bradford's version) might save his or her life.

So be an attentive pepperoni, and contribute your own flavor.

There are lots i need to think about it. How much of my pepperoni I wish to give, so that 53 journey will work out is my big question regarding that matter.

thanks Bruce

 

[sooo]

Brad, you mean Fan Yao 53.1, yes? I've quoted from it in my first post to Maria. Though criticized, there's no blame, you say. I guess it is natural for the fledgling to be criticized and critiqued, and wise for the fledgling to take heed - in most cases. But when does the no blame of the fledgling override blind obedience to follow the flock? How many great people would never have discovered their own genius, if they just followed those higher up in the pecking order?

Btw, this isn't meant to be critical of your method. It's what I rely on when I refer to your work. But as with Wilhelm, or Tuck's Confucianism, I sometimes have to consider that the original treatment needs some practical updating in order to be useful to my situation.

 

[tuckchang]

I don't like having to squirm like that, especially to justify something as wrong as "within" is at 37.1. My first recourse, polysemy notwithstanding, is to try out other glosses that are consistent with the rest of the book, and with 有 there are good and meaningful ones to choose from.

Hi Brad,

In my first post, I used ‘within’ just because I quoted from ‘Firm seclusion within the family’. Usually in this case I say ‘to be available’. 有you, in general, is signified as to have or to exist. You use ‘maintain’ in your translation; I think that is due to your understanding of the text.

Usually I take the text of Tuan Zhuan as a guide for the interpretation of the line text. In my opinion, the norm of the family is all the household members stay at their right positions and righteously act according to what they should. The family discipline is the first important thing. It is set up at position 1 and enforced at position 3 before the line goes to the external hexagram.

Regards
Tuck :bows:
www.iching123.com

 

[anemos]

I think "Firm seclusion within the family" is a particularly poor translation of this line.
See my Matrix translation. It's about healthy boundaries that maintain some order and hold the family together. That "regrets pass" means that there is a cost to this - you lose some spontaneity, some of that organic flow, you don't spoil your children with over-permissiveness - they pull their load. Sometimes it's OK if they cry about that.

thanks for explaining Brad.
I have to say many Noes, to my young nieces and I hate sometimes that it makes them cry but i hear also Noes from other people in the wider family that come out without reasoning and its then that the little ones have to make their own rules as well.

Parents can spoil their children but children, in a way, can "spoil" parents too by being over permissive. In Wilhelm's commentaries, I read "breaking a child's will." as a warning of in not took the right measures on time then later would be hard to change it.
Both 37.1 and 53.1 talks about a solid base.

 

[anemos]

For Your reference:

閑xian of 閑有家 (discipline within the family) depicts a wooden board 木 in the middle of a door 門; its original meaning is to build a fence in order to prevent livestock from running away; its extended meaning is to set up the measures of restraint, i.e. discipline.

The last hexagram Ming Yi (36) is a hexagram, wherein a gentleman should conceal his aspirations due to a fatuous king, line 6, ruling the country. 36.6 steps onto the sky at the beginning but later sinks into the earth because of its losing principle (of monarch and subject).

The hexagram Jia Ren (37) is formed after line 4 of Hex 33 (Dun) retreats to position 1. Line 1, the founding line and by which all the lines of Jia Ren from line 1 to 5 are in their proper places, represents the eldest son, the one who usually inherits the family's undertakings in the first place. The family discipline is well set up; the family’s aspiration can be carried on without change and the family's glory can be restored.

The line texts of Jia Ren reveal how to build the family’s glory.


Regards
Tuck :bows:
www.iching123.com

thank you Tuck. Your comments help a lot . I read at your site some other note about 37.1 and its behavior and i tend to agree that A recommendation of this line is set up discipline. Its like when we play a game. First step is to make the rules known so everyone is aware of what the game is played. Clear rules reduce future contentions.

 

[anemos]

Brad, you mean Fan Yao 53.1, yes? I've quoted from it in my first post to Maria. Though criticized, there's no blame, you say. I guess it is natural for the fledgling to be criticized and critiqued, and wise for the fledgling to take heed - in most cases. But when does the no blame of the fledgling override blind obedience to follow the flock? How many great people would never have discovered their own genius, if they just followed those higher up in the pecking order?

glad you mentioned that. If I would take Wilhelm's commentaries literal, I have my objection, of his view of the children and the fledglings. Sometimes critic can help them grow wings and be able to fly, some others they just put fetters.

 

[rodaki]

this line reminds me of smoking.
I was a smoker for 18 years (started at 14, quit at 32) and I wasn't one of those always complaining how they want to quit but can't, or trying to bargain about it -I liked smoking. But when I decided to grow up and look after myself I cut it cold turkey, no other way to go about it but establish some self-discipline -I even quit coffee at first cause the two were fixed in my head.

Now it's been over 1 year that I haven't smoked. I still think of it sometimes, mostly when I want to avoid something, or as a familiar past-time, or when I'm around others and the imitation instinct kicks in. I don't go on to get one, not even close, just the thought crosses my mind. A few times I have seen myself smoking though, while I'm dreaming. And the funny thing is, I always do it in a very cool way as if it's ok and nothing matters. What's even funnier is that I also get totally freaked out -still in my dream- realizing that smoking is something I quit doing, period! -how come I light one of them so lightly??

Anyway, I digress -I just woke up . .
Seeing this line as about safety lines and not crossing them and keeping my inner health safe makes lots of sense . . there's nothing wrong with saying 'no' sometimes -that took a lot of time for me to learn

 

[bradford]

But when does the no blame of the fledgling override blind obedience to follow the flock? How many great people would never have discovered their own genius, if they just followed those higher up in the pecking order?

I had too rigid a childhood, too many boundaries, and turned out rebellious enough.
I guess you find your way to the drugs you need to break free

I sometimes have to consider that the original treatment needs some practical updating in order to be useful to my situation.

My only problem there is with doing the updating n the translation instead of in the commentary and then thinking you're still at the core of it. If your starting point is with that big a bias or slant your next steps will be even farther off course.

 

[bradford]

Hi Tuck-
I compiled my glossary starting with my sixteen favorite dictionaries. When I added additional material, glosses found in other translations or in a thesaurus, I made a point to only use these to fill in gaps between accepted meanings, not going outside the territory already established by accepted meanings. This is my entry for 有.
I found nothing close to the meaning you assign, to be available or within.

you3 有 7533 995o 74+2 01.6 (to) be, (in) being; (there, one, it, this, they,
those) is, am, are, was, were, being, has, have, had, has/have been, will be, come(s) to be; (there is) one, someone, something; exist, remain, stay (s); become, arise, appear, grow, attain to, learn to be, turn into; (there) will, would, could, may, might, can (be); (this) will get; (if there) is, are, was, were; (were) there, one, it, they; have, (in) having; (one, that, they) has, have, had; has one’s, have their; had (one’s, their); contain, hold (onto), keep, maintain, own, retain, possess, stay; presume, assume, remember, take ... for granted; will have, (one they) (will, could, might, may) have; bring (up, about); get, achieve, acquire, attain, capture, claim, earn, find, gain, learn, take on; seize, take, took (possession of) (s, ed, ing); (to be) present, there; in possession of, possessed of, with; contained, held; abundant, rich, plentiful; (a, the) attainment, claim, possession (of); being, existence, presence; domain, dominion (in, over); what exists/is there; the, this, this one, the one in question; something; anybody, somebody, someone (’s); given this/that, this (being) given; of, about, with, for; His (especially of the sovereign), his, her, its, their; will, would ... with, to, for; -ing, -ous

 

[sooo]

I had too rigid a childhood, too many boundaries, and turned out rebellious enough.
I guess you find your way to the drugs you need to break free

My only problem there is with doing the updating n the translation instead of in the commentary and then thinking you're still at the core of it. If your starting point is with that big a bias or slant your next steps will be even farther off course.

I totally respect and appreciate that. As I said, it's what I rely on your translation for, as a core. I'm not very liberal with my alterations, but sometimes just a tweak here or there is enough for it to make some practical sense. You provide so many Key Words and Glossary indicators to draw from, it's not difficult to stay true to the core and still make sense to a given current context.

As with Maria's original 37.1 topic, I've struggled with it in the past too, as with 4.1 and 7.1: where order and discipline are given as the prerequisite to a successful outcome. It's hardly a wonder that correcting the effects of and in 18.1 becomes the first order of regaining a little disorder and freedom, providing a desperately needed breath of fresh air, to really live a creative life.

 

[tuckchang]

Hi Tuck-
I compiled my glossary starting with my sixteen favorite dictionaries. When I added additional material, glosses found in other translations or in a thesaurus, I made a point to only use these to fill in gaps between accepted meanings, not going outside the territory already established by accepted meanings. This is my entry for 有.
I found nothing close to the meaning you assign, to be available or within.

you3 有 7533 995o 74+2 01.6 (to) be, (in) being; (there, one, it, this, they,
those) is, am, are, was, were, being, has, have, had, has/have been, will be, come(s) to be; (there is) one, someone, something; exist, remain, stay (s); become, arise, appear, grow, attain to, learn to be, turn into; (there) will, would, could, may, might, can (be); (this) will get; (if there) is, are, was, were; (were) there, one, it, they; have, (in) having; (one, that, they) has, have, had; has one’s, have their; had (one’s, their); contain, hold (onto), keep, maintain, own, retain, possess, stay; presume, assume, remember, take ... for granted; will have, (one they) (will, could, might, may) have; bring (up, about); get, achieve, acquire, attain, capture, claim, earn, find, gain, learn, take on; seize, take, took (possession of) (s, ed, ing); (to be) present, there; in possession of, possessed of, with; contained, held; abundant, rich, plentiful; (a, the) attainment, claim, possession (of); being, existence, presence; domain, dominion (in, over); what exists/is there; the, this, this one, the one in question; something; anybody, somebody, someone (’s); given this/that, this (being) given; of, about, with, for; His (especially of the sovereign), his, her, its, their; will, would ... with, to, for; -ing, -ous

Hi Brad,

I thank you for your provided information. Regardless of whether they are correct or not, I do admire the effort that you have spent on studying the I Ching from such a basic ground.

有you3 is commonly signified as ‘to have’ or ‘to exist’, a concept of possession and existence. 我(wo3: I)有you3錢(Qian: money): I have money, or I am rich, signifying I am in a status in possession of lots of money. ‘There is (A)’ is translated into 有you3 (A), a status of existence. (To) be and there (to) be never stand for 有you3 (A) in Chinese, but those words provide the connotation of possession and existence, just like A within B and C signifying that A exists in B and C, and discipline available at the family signifying that discipline exists in the family. It doesn’t matter whether they are in your dictionaries or not. I have lived with 有you3 for 60 years, use it very day and know what is its meaning. English is your native language; I will very much appreciate if you can correct me from the perspective of English expression.

Regards
Tuck :bows:

 

[bradford]

It doesn’t matter whether they are in your dictionaries or not.
Regards
Tuck :bows:

“The question is,” said Alice, “whether you can make words mean so many different things.”
“The question is,” said Humpty Dumpty, “which is to be master—that’s all.”
Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass

 

[bradford]

I have lived with 有you3 for 60 years, use it very day and know what is its meaning.
Regards
Tuck :bows:

I'm not sure I would play that card here, Tuck. A lot of us have seen very little evidence that being a native speaker of modern Chinese confers much of a head start on the decades of work that it takes to grasp the workings of the Yi. China's body of literature on the subject is at least as full of crap as ours.

 

[tuckchang]

Hi Brad,

I thank you very much for your advice. My understanding of English I Ching is limited to those available on the internet; I am sorry that I have very little knowledge to share your experience. What I would like to comment is my impression on Chinese I Ching books (both ancient and modern ones): so called the wrong translation of the character and the inappropriate interpretation of the text (I mean, they are incorrect to me but some are really full of crap) mainly come from the writer’s understanding of the text. Maybe due to the same culture background, Chinese characters are not big issues here; there are some discussions of the ancient characters, and sometime every book has its own definition, but this won’t bother me; I mean, once I know what the meaning of the text is to me, and then I know which one is the right. My problem is English, wrong expression, the errors, etc. very often I have difficulty in understanding what you are saying. I have been your site many times, I can’t catch them completely but know that you translated and interpreted the text after you understood them; this doesn’t mean that I agree on your aspects, but you are doing and saying what is right to you, and a great job! I don’t mean that my aspect and understanding of the text are right but they are correct to me.

Regards
Tuck