37. Chia Jen / The Family [The Clan]

[Sparhawk]

Seems to me like you relate every hexagram to a womans body and how it can be of use to a man - and it all seems to limit meanings in a most depressing way IMO.

Hey! I want to be Mr. Innuendo here!!

(Don't worry, I've got your back, Charly)

 

[Trojina]

well its funny how you two manage to get picture of suspenders belts in most of these threads - I can't wait for 38

 

[Sparhawk]

well its funny how you two manage to get picture of suspenders belts in most of these threads - I can't wait for 38

I wasn't even thinking of it, but, since you brought it up...

Mind you, this is the mildest picture I could find in Google images...

 

[charly]

... Seems to me like you relate every hexagram to a womans body and how it can be of use to a man...

Trojan:

I apologize. I have a dirty mind, like ancient chinese do. :bows: They were not angels. But I promise to make an effort in search of meanings for both genres.

I don't use to relate every hexagram only to a woman body, but also to man body, like to all the animals in general.

The uses people can make of own and others' bodies are pretty known. Nothing is new.

Maybe if you doesn't read spanish you cann't get the tenderness the Benedetti's poem has, far enough from the hypocrite righteousness that less dirty guys share with most confucian commentaries.

Speaking of female constancy, do you find it more undestandable than female profitability?

Do you believe that women chastity, or lack of, is responsible for all the human misfortune? What about male chastity?

Trust me, I'm only trying to make evident the inconsistencies or irregularities of some translations that don't respect the original chinese text, that make interpolations and interpretations biased by social and political prejudices.

I don't pretend that the only right reading is the mine. More yet, I believe that each paragraph, each word has many senses and that this is the warranty for fitting oracle answers with consultant questions in the real life world.

... and it all seems to limit meanings in a most depressing way...

I'm affraid that if we take only one meaning as valid, whatever meaning will depress us, say only one moral sense, only one literal sense. Only for guys is not an exception, I know.

Once more, I will try to get two tailed meanings for use of girls and guys.

Yours,

Charly

_____________________

... if you are a woman doing a consultation finding profitable women doesn't mean much,

Oh, yes, it means that if you behave like a profitable woman you wil be found by somebody, maybe the correct guy. Among many another senses, of course.

...the glowing naked woman of 36 (according to you) doesn't amount to much meaning wise if you are a female with your own naked body that doesn't glow

Maybe you have reason, maybe not all the naked women glows in the shadows. But Benedetti says so. Maybe we must read «hidden promise» instead os «naked woman». But when the woman is beloved she always shines.

 

[Trojina]

Mind you, this is the mildest picture I could find in Google images...

Hah you can't fool me you had to search google to find these, you just whipped the pair you were wearing off and scanned them in !

 

[charly]

...Mind you, this is the mildest picture I could find in Google images...

Luis:

Maybe you look for an image of the DOOR character?

門men2: door / gate​

Synonymous of WOMAN, of course!

abrazo,

Charly

 

[charly]

Now all women are profitable . The real question is how one can profit from the virtue of the woman...

Toganm:

1) Not all the women are profitable, this is a dessire, a good dessire from the oracle.
2) If you don't know how, the YI will not tell you how. (*)

yours,

Charly

_______________________
(*) Neither all the yin / yang philosophy will do.

 

[Sparhawk]

Hah you can't fool me you had to search google to find these, you just whipped the pair you were wearing off and scanned them in !

Nope, sorry. Today is not my cross-dressing day. Only on Thursdays and Saturdays... Perhaps I should send you a picture of my hairy legs with black, silken stocking...

 

[charly]

... I can't wait for 38

Trojan:

I go to read 38 with my best whishes. (*)
Maybe you can go forward first an give us the girls point of view?

Yours,

Charly

______________
(*) in the next thread.

 

[Sparhawk]

門men2: door / gate​

Synonymous of WOMAN, of course!

Oh, my eyes!! Men2 is borderline pornographic!

 

[Trojina]

Ah I don't know how to reply Charly. The truth is I'm too used to thinking of women as human beings rather than some kind of rare species that has special traits like constancy and so on. And profitability ? The woman in 37, or rather the one has the role of caring for what is 'inner' in the situation brings abundance to the family through her nurturance and care which is different to me than the idea of profitability which implies she is a commodity. In other words I see the qualities of what is called the woman here as paying attention to needs and sustenance in the situation. In 37 each attends to his/her own role in the structure - but you seemed to describe the idea of buying in a useful woman, a profitable woman, but I see the woman as making the profit through her skills in the care of this family/situation. The lines 2 and 4 describe how the woman brings increase to the home. But obviously this need not refer to a woman at all, just a kind of role in the situation.

Probably I take your interpretations too literally (though maybe not ) But if you taking the 'being inside' of 37 as 'being inside a woman' what you do is erase the woman from the picture altogether inasmuch as she is only a receptacle for the man and i don't think that really is the picture of the woman in 37.

Oh yes BTW if you can bring the mans body more frequently into your interpretations I would be most obliged - it would add a whole new dimension for me - i may even glow in the dark

BTW I mentioned hex 38 because Luis has promised an interesting picture for it but won't give us a preview

 

[Sparhawk]

BTW I mentioned hex 38 because Luis has promised an interesting picture for it but won't give us a preview

"Cute" applies more than "interesting," but yes, I will hold my peace on that one until 38 comes up...

BTW, the card for 49 is very intriguing...

 

[rosada]

I'm assuming you all are intentionally personifying those overindulged whims and passions 37.1 warns us about?

Very amusing - not.

Now back in the house before your dad gets home!

 

[charly]

Ah I don't know how to reply Charly.

Trojan:

It's not a goal but a good begining.

The truth is I'm too used to thinking of women as human beings rather than some kind of rare species that has special traits like constancy and so on.

Men are also human beings, nobody's perfect! In my country women are more than 50% population, the mayority, not rare.

Chinese people from old times preferred men, they give to women the burden of chastity, constancy, and so on, not me. But, of course, they are not like men, there is a little difference.

And profitability ? The woman in 37, or rather the one has the role of caring for what is 'inner' in the situation brings abundance to the family through her nurturance and care which is different to me than the idea of profitability which implies she is a commodity. In other words I see the qualities of what is called the woman here as paying attention to needs and sustenance in the situation.

The profitability of women is of course multiple, not only economic, ethic and reproductive as for confucian commentarists.

When the chinese text uses LI, it is generally well translated as profit / profitable. Given that the text uses LI applied to woman, it is clear that means profit / profitable, if not, why don't use another word?

Not a commodity, like wheat or rice, it cost hard work to get the revenues.

Not only women pay attention to needs and sustenance: sometimes also men, sometimes also pets...

In 37 each attends to his/her own role in the structure - but you seemed to describe the idea of buying in a useful woman, a profitable woman, but I see the woman as making the profit through her skills in the care of this family/situation.

I believe that the core text, the ZhouYi, speaks of concrete human bonds, the commentaries of abstract roles in abstract structures.

When the commentaries speak of marriage the ZhouYi uses a character maybe better translated as abduction, catching.

Maybe the ritual abduction of the bride in old customs.

The lines 2 and 4 describe how the woman brings increase to the home. But obviously this need not refer to a woman at all, just a kind of role in the situation.

Not only women bring increase to the home, also men.
Not only to the home brings increase women, also ...

Probably I take your interpretations too literally (though maybe not )

You have all the right to do it! I'm making literal translation almost word by word.

But if you taking the 'being inside' of 37 as 'being inside a woman' what you do is erase the woman from the picture altogether inasmuch as she is only a receptacle for the man and i don't think that really is the picture of the woman in 37.

I believe that the inside/outside is not in the core text (the ZhouYi) but in the commentaries that being confucian surely speaks of roles in the family model they defend: patriarchal, autoritarian, utilitarian, not very fond of women and children.

But I believe that it depicts, like a sort of negative, the alter ego of the commentarists: they take women as objects, mere receptacles.

Oh yes BTW if you can bring the mans body more frequently into your interpretations I would be most obliged - it would add a whole new dimension for me - i may even glow in the dark

I give you an example: based in the old custom of turning the bride wife only when she gets pregnant, I believe that the WILD GOOSE of H.53 is not only an anser but also the male tool (2).

BTW I mentioned hex 38 because Luis has promised an interesting picture for it but won't give us a preview

Please, could you put your ________ (3) mind on and proceed with H.38 from a girl's point of view? Don't wait for Luis.

Yours,

Charly
_____________
(1) a character with a hand taking somebody by the ear, supposedly the wife.
(2) aka «El Ganso» in spanish slang.
(3) to be freely filled with an adjective.

 

[charly]

I'm assuming you all are intentionally personifying those overindulged whims and passions 37.1 warns us about?
Very amusing - not.
Now back in the house before your dad gets home!

Yes, mom! But who did begin it? Not only Luis and me!

Yes, sir! 37.1:

«xian2 you3 jia1 hui3 wang2» (*)

Go us to the 1st. word: xian2

Zhongwen says «door blocked by wood > barrier / idle » But the character for «wood» also means «tree».

The DOOR is a well kown FEMALE symbol and TREE a well known MALE symbol.

Is this the lesson that I was said to learn?

(to be contiued)

Yours,

Charly :bows:

________________________
(*) the chinese text:

閑xian2: idle / not busy / enclosure / blocked
有you3: to have / there is / there are
家jia1: home / family
悔hui3: regret /
亡wang2: to die / to perish /

 

[rosada]

0 Six in the second place means:
She should not follow her whims.
She must attend within to the food.
Perseverance brings good fortune.

The wife must always be guided by the will of the master of the house, be he father, husband, or grown son. Her place is within the house. There, without having to look for them, she has great and important duties. She must attend to the nourishment of her family and to the food for the sacrifice. In this way she becomes the center of the social and religious life of the family, and her perseverance in this position brings good fortune to the whole house.

In relation to general conditions, the counsel given here is to

SEEK NOTHING BY MEANS OF FORCE, BUT QUIETLY CONFINE ONESELF TO THE DUTIES AT HAND.

-Wilhelm

 

[rosada]

Charly, Do I understand it correctly that the Chinese characters for 37.1 are saying something about being "idle" can cause one to "perish"? Then would that mean 37.2 is the opposite, something about being very busy?

 

[charly]

Charly, Do I understand it correctly that the Chinese characters for 37.1 are saying something about being "idle" can cause one to "perish"? Then would that mean 37.2 is the opposite, something about being very busy?

Rosada:

The previously quoted are modern uses for 閑xian, mainly as an adjective, but maybe the syntax requires a noun. (*)

• Sears provide 1) a fence, 2) barrier, 3) laws and regulations, 4) a stable.
  
• Lin Yutang provide as nouns: 1) a stable, 2) prevention, 3) bounds ,4) for 閒, leisure time, 5) + long tailed bird component a type of pheasant.

Some alternatives:

• Idle (or calm) - have - home : have a home calm
• blocked (or secure) - have - home: have a home secure

• leisure - have - home: have leisure at home
• laws - have - home: home has [its] laws

• a stable - have - home: home has [a] stable. Remember the pig!
• a pheasant (long tailed bird) - have - home: there is [a] pheasant [at] home

[the] long tailed bird is [at] home

About to perish is not oneself who will perish but the regret. Regret passes. Maybe regret always passes. But because of what the regret was?

Something passes that was not good. Maybe the goal justifying the means?

I continue thinking that this have to do with ancient marriage customs.

The pig, the tree, the long tailed bird are maybe the same guy. This guy could be Gus the Goose (but we need to reach line 3 before to find the geese).

Yours,

Charly

__________________________
(*) Maybe a good idea to consult Schluesser, maybe Luis, Harmen or Bradford could aport some light?

 

[Sparhawk]

The previously quoted are modern uses for 閑xian, mainly as an adjective, but maybe the syntax requires a noun. (*)
__________________________
(*) Maybe a good idea to consult Schluesser, maybe Luis, Harmen or Bradford could aport some light?

In his first entry, Schuessler pairs 閑 with 閒 : 閑閒 for "Be moving slowly, lazy"

Second, he has 閑: "Barrier, bar," "obstruct, guard against, protect"

Third: "To restrain, train (horses > then general)" This is probably a semantic extension of 閑 "barrier"

Fourth: "Be large (of pillars and the like)"

Karlgren (GSR 192) has: "Bar, barrier; enclosure; obstruct, guard against; protect; loan for idiom to train, well-trained, refined; great, large minded; move leisurely. The graph has 'door' and 'wood'

Un abrazo,

 

[crystal_blue]

Tree over Fire,
Dependency thus structured,
Candle in the wind?

 

[Sparhawk]

Interesting quote in the "Portable Dragon" applied to the text of 37:

The ultimate goal of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools.

Herbert Spencer, English (1820-1903)​

 

[rosada]

Interesting quote indeed, and it is particularly to be connected with 37.3, which I shall now post...

 

[rosada]

Nine in the third place means:
When tempers flare up in the family,
Too great severity brings remorse.
Good fortune nonetheless.
When woman and children dally and laugh,
It leads in the end to humiliation.

In the family the proper mean between severity and indulgence ought to prevail. Too great severity toward one's own flesh and blood leads to remorse. The wise thing is to build strong dikes within which complete freedom of movement is allowed each individual. But in doubtful instances too great severity, despite occasional mistakes, is preferable, because it preserves discipline in the family, whereas too great weakness leads to disgrace.

"When tempers flare up in the family," nothing is as yet lost.
"When woman and children dally," the discipline of the house is lost.

This line is at the top of the lower primary trigram Li, flame, and likewise at the beginning of the upper nuclear trigram, which is also Li; hense it implies too much heat. Although this is a mistake, such behavior is still to be preferred in the case of a strong line between two weak ones. If the line changes and becomes yielding, the discipline of the house is lost.
-Wilhelm

 

[charly]

"When tempers flare up in the family," nothing is as yet lost.
"When woman and children dally," the discipline of the house is lost.
-Wilhelm

Rosada:

Thinking about home or family:

• Maybe discipline is the most important thing.
• Much people think that happiness is, nobody's perfect.

Different kinds of people, from Cortazar:

The cronopios... those disordered and lukewarm beings, leave the loose memories by the house, between glad shouts... and when one passes running, they caress him with smoothness and they say to him: "you do not go to hurt you", and also: "Take care with the steps".
Julio Cortazar translated by Babelfish (1)

This is the reason why the houses of the Famas are ordered and quiet, whereas in those of the Cronopios there are great racket and doors that strike.
Julio Cortazar translated by Babelfish (2)

I subscribe to the second.

Yours,


Charly

_______________________________

(1) ... Los cronopios ... esos seres desordenados y tibios, dejan los recuerdos sueltos por la casa, entre alegres gritos, y ellos andan por el medio y cuando pasa corriendo uno, lo acarician con suavidad y le dicen: "No vayas a lastimarte", y también: "Cuidado con los escalones".
Julio Cortazar: Historias de Cronopios y de Famas.

(2) ...Es por eso que las casas de los famas son ordenadas y silenciosas, mientras que en las de los cronopios hay gran bulla y puertas que golpean.
Julio Cortazar: Historias de Cronopios y de Famas.

 

[charly]

In his first entry, Schuessler pairs 閑 with 閒 : 閑閒 for "Be moving slowly, lazy"...

Thanks, Luis:

This is very interesting.

If I understand well, Schuessler says that 閑 = 閒, both meaning «be moving slowly, lazy»

閑 has a TREE or a BEAM inside the hollow of a DOOR, between the two halves of a door.
閒 has MOON instead of TREE.

For most authors the character MOON proceeds from the character for MEAT, maybe sacrificial meat, roasted meat whose scent reach the sky and touch the ancestors.


Yours,


Charly

 

[Sparhawk]

Hola Charly,

If I understand well, Schuessler says that 閑 = 閒, both meaning «be moving slowly, lazy»

No, the in the dictionary is paired together, like a compound word with that meaning, but, they are also used interchangeably. Now, to muddle things a little bit more, Mathews has the following:

Mathews (2679) 閑: A bar, a barrier, a fence, an enclosure; thus: to defend.

(a) Stables. A corral.
(b) Large
(c) Trained
(d) used for No. 2672. Leisure, etc.
​

Mathews (2672) 閒: Leisure, idleness, unoccupied. Distinguish 間 No. 835, of which this character is the older form; and 閑 No. 2679, with which it is now interchanged, though it was formerly a different word. (my underline)

Mathews (835) 間: Among, in, on, while. The space within. Distinguish 閒 No. 2672. This was the original form and is still found used in this sense. (my underline)

(a) A division of a house. N.A. (Numerary adjunt or classifier of noun) of houses, rooms.
(b) To put a space between. To divide. To separate. Intermittent.
(c) To part friends.
(d) To find a flaw or defect in. To blame.

​

閑 and 閒 are now used interchangeably but, in the past, they had well defined and separate meanings. So, regarding the text of the Yijing, we should not play them interchangeably to derive semantic meanings beyond their own intrinsic scope.

Un abrazo,

 

[charly]

No, the in the dictionary is paired together, like a compound word with that meaning...
[/INDENT]閑 and 閒 are now used interchangeably but, in the past, they had well defined and separate meanings. So, regarding the text of the Yijing, we should not play them interchangeably to derive semantic meanings beyond their own intrinsic scope.
Un abrazo,

Thanks, Luis:

Maybe fence / corral could be more appropriated. Maybe we could alternate fence / corral with secure / defended, a double advice about home:

it must have a central place for animals (warmth , feelings / industry, economical basis)
it must be protected

Un abrazo,

Charly

 

[rosada]

Six in the fourth place means:

She is the treasure of the house.
Great good fortune.

It is upon the woman of the house that the well-being of the family depends. Well-being prevails when expenditures and income are soundly balanced. This lead to great good fortune. In the sphere of public life, this line refes to the faithful steward whose measures further the general welfare.

"She is the treasure of the house. Great good fortune."
For she is devoted and in her place.

The fourth line is the yielding lowest line in the upper primary trigram Sun, gentleness. it is the middle line of the upper nuclear trigram Li; when the line changes, it remains within the lower nuclear trigram Sun thus formed. Sun means work, silk, a near-by market - all things that promise wealth. As a yielding line in its proper place, it means great good fortune.

 

[Sparhawk]

六四 富家大吉。
liu4 si4 fu4 jia1 da4 ji2

 

[Sparhawk]

Mind you, if we go by the Chinese characters, there's no "She" in it. Only "treasure of the house, great good fortune," or something like that. The "She" here is somehow implied, perhaps by the general context of the hexagram.