#37: Your Family Is Not Quite Correct

[fkegan]

Group hugs live and drawn

I enjoyed the original group hug cartoon and the photo is true to the definition of group hug, though I would agree in I Ching context--symbolic drawing trumps live photo. Although, nothing says family dynamics like a photo of glistening sweaty hugging.
That is another of the wonders of the Internet, not only do we only share a bit of what our total family experience would be, it is clarified and purified though the ether.
Frank

 

[dobro p]

Luis, those guys in the photo aren't gay and they don't even like each other. They're just hanging on tight cuz they're so greased up they're scared they'll all just slip away...

 

[emc2cme]

Frank

You said, "And I am pleased to see Nancy speak of her realization of her issues which a number of us were urging her to do, and even more pleased that she expressed herself as well in ignoring me--I appreciate the respect for my privacy."

I didn't respond to you because your name wasn't among those who made a comment after mine. I realize my issues, and I did address the fact that I found the "stag in the field" approach inappropriate for xyz reasons, thus my distress. As far as I'm concerned, it was an "AB" conversation, and has nothing to do with you. If you'd like to continue this conversation in private, you may contact me, as I'm finished with it on the public forum.

 

[fkegan]

No, I appreciated the respect for my privacy, I too was finished with the conversation in the public forum.

 

[emc2cme]

Whatever

Although I initially had some respect for your opinion, after further reading of your site and "contributions", I no longer do. So I don't do anything, or not do anything, out of respect for you. I gave you my email address and you chose not to address me privately, but publicly. Quit it.

 

[fkegan]

Nancy-- you said publicly..

If you'd like to continue this conversation in private, you may contact me, as I'm finished with it on the public forum.

I said publicly."..No, I appreciated the respect for my privacy, I too was finished with the conversation in the public forum."

I am well aware you can not appreciate my perspective and that you made your best case statement in the post awhile back. I have nothing more to say publicly or privately. I only respond at all when you keep making public calls to me as well as private email. But as the principle is now well established, I will not be making further response to either your public or private statements.

Frank

 

[emc2cme]

Blah blah blah

First I responded to you in public, because you wrote something about me when I wasn't even talking to you. I also wrote to you in private because I thought you might really be interested in continuing the conversation, rather than just trying the one-upmanship with me. You're determined to have the last word, so go on and have it. No skin off my back.

 

[fkegan]

Responding the the original question...

Dobro, why do you like the argue so much? Furthermore, when you make an argument, it's good practice to back up your claims with some solid facts and research, rather than just spouting off opinions to be contrary.

--------------------------

Let me clarify what I meant by saying the top line is incorrect.

I didn't mean change line 6; I meant - if the top line of #37 were yin instead of yan, then all the lines of the hexagram would be in their "correct" positions (cf. #63). The only line not in its (philosophically) correct position in #37 is the top line of the outer trigram. If you study I Ching linear philosophy, then you know that the top line of any hexagram corresponds to authority - in this case, the authority of the family. Hence, #37 is almost correct, but not quite, as the authority-line or the authority-position is the incorrect one.

On your point about the concept of dysfunctional family not existing in ancient civilizations, a few quotes from some pretty authoritative sources on the matter:

"[The Oresteia, a Greek Tragedy] The trilogy tells the story of the House of Atreus, a dysfunctional family with a nasty episode of cannibalism in its closet. "

"...Sumerian, Egyptian, and other mythologies, then one is astounded by two facts. One is that these so-called gods and goddesses constitute a fundamentally dysfunctional family, not... to be enthusiastically emulated. "

" But beginning in 772 B.C.E. in Southern China (and extending until 481 B.C.E.), the so-called “Springs and Autumns Period” began. This consisted of eight lesser periods, when life and limb were cheap, barbaric, and toward the end, “philosophy became more important than war.” This is when Lao Tzu and Confucius arrived on the scene..."

"Confucius, living in a time of failed families, said that virtue derives from the [setting in order of proper family roles]..."

"In a given family, the hoju - or head of household ... is required to be wise and benevolent in the discharge of his responsibilities...However, [in ancient Korean families] there were no remedies if the hoju failed to fulfill his responsibilities, and misuse and abuse of the hoju's authority were frequent...During the 500 years of the Yi dynasty, which embraced the Confucian ideology, gender and age-based oppression became codified into law..."

Your original question raises a number of interesting points, though I can not agree with your answers....

Hex 37 has hex 64 as its nuclear hexagram. If its 6th line place were changed to Yin, it would be hex 63 which also has hex 64 for its nuclear. The Yi hexagrams are dynamic, so attaining the state of having all the lines in their "correct" positions or odd numbered places yang and even yin is not a good thing. It is considered in commentary on hex 63 as being a minor peak that must become more and more disordered.

Hex 37 in those purely yang-odd line terms has developed a bit of stability by changing its top line to Yang to prevent the immediate disorder of all correct places in hex 63. This is given Confucian commentary that a proper family has a yang line on top that is strong and does not impose on the others. It doesn't make much sense. In terms of its decad, this hexagram is part of the set beginning with hex 31 romantic attraction which becomes family when the couple marry and have children in their separate home. What good does a loner extra male do over the ruler in the fifth place--the husband?

A better explanation is that the family is a mechanism to turn romantic attraction into the engine of society through the famous Chinese family, and the family (which is the subject of hex 37) has a clear focus upon the final 6th place, that is the transition to the next or the success of the children when they grow up and move out into their own careers and families.

In terms of dysfunctional families ancient and modern. There wasn't much talk of family problems in the ancient world where they had more serious problems like famine, war and being sold into slavery to satisfy loan debts. They also had myth narratives for their psychology texts. The stories of the ancient gods are narratives of various psychological issues which folks could identify with. The Greek tragedies are narratives of what the various psychological issues, taken as immutable character flaws lead to as their ultimate consequences.
The Oedipus trilogy written through the years of the Peloponnesian War, is a all about the Lame King (Oedipus Gk for Lame) whose overcompensation for his disability first brings him unexpected success, but ends up ruining his career. The Freudian implications are just projections, incest and patricide were the only crimes that the divine punished but in the third play, Oedipus is deemed pure enough to be buried in sacred ground, his acts were not crimes but expressions of his character. Freud's favorite quote about Oedipus was that with one answer, he gained wealth and fame, which was Freud's life dream.

Missing the real meaning of the play, he missed the great psychological insight that Kaiser Wilhelm II's birth defect, rendering his right arm hanging useless at his side was the quirk in Queen Victoria's family dynamics that led to the cousin rivalry that erupted as World War I.

You cite the Springs and Autumns period, which includes the 6th century BCE when there was a global metaphysical and philosophical Great Leap Forward, with Pythagoras in the Mediterranean, The Buddha in Nepal, Lao Tzu in China, the development of the personal horoscope in the Fertile Crescent.

Confucius is a bit younger and like most a generation after the great insights, only caught a bit of the inspiration and came down with advice for Imperial Bureaucrats not keys to opening inner Portals to the Divine. Like Plato (and his PTSD ravaged mentor Socrates) who was only able to work with the objective math abstraction of Pythagorean insight.

In both most Confucian influenced systems, they talk about the need for proper human relations, but have no answers about how to improve human relations or how to live your own life even if you are in a bad environment, so indeed rigid family roles with political abuses built in became the norm at all levels from family to Emperor.

This thread developed a "family feeling" with personal psychological issues being exposed through the ensuing posts. Nothing is more destructive of hex 37 family as engine of the successful next generation than the comic parody notions of Stephen Potten and the School for Scoundrels based upon his work about training a new generation of confirmed bachelors competing with each other and using their sexual conquests as scoring points.
So, our family is not quite correct, but when it loses focus upon the hexagram being discussed it is totally incorrect and boring.

But you brought up a good thread and several intriguing issues to discuss.

Dr. Frank R. Kegan, Psy.D.

 

[emc2cme]

I think it'd be GREAT for our country!

You mean a Greek Goddess and a Wetback Latino? In this country?? We ran out of style a couple of years ago after Lou Dobbs, Glenn Beck, Limbaugh, etc., started kicking their dogs for no good and apparent reason and Ricky Martin didn't look so macho anymore... Even hispanics with a family lineage in the States going back a couple of centuries before it was even called the U.S.A. are looked down with suspicion...

The Greek Goddess has a better chance. For her own sake, I'll stay out of the ticket.

I'm still amazed to see a woman and a black dude with such a good chance of reaching that pinnacle.

Hi--yes, I think our country would be much better off and I'll tell you why. I spent several years in Mexico, and was astonished to learn that not everyone in the world thinks like Anglo-Europeans. Not to idealize a whole group of people, because that's just as silly as trashing a whole group. Still, I found lots of people who were curious, kind, witty, educated (and those who weren't "educated" had great common sense--and btw, am of the opinion that most Mexican three-year olds have a better vocabulary than most high-school students from the USA), and compassionate--people who would go way out of their way just to help a person, much more so than their north-of-the-border counterparts. And it was from my Mexican friends that I learned what it was like to be "amigos del alma"--the best lesson I ever received.

As for the Latinos with family origins reaching back through the century--my cousin is in the process of untangling her family roots. She finds it kind of funny that the Anglo side is considered "old" when it goes back a few centuries, but that her Hispanic/Indigena side (well, you know what I mean) was here for millenia but that doesn't cut much cotton for some reason. Of course, all of our roots go back as far as anyone else's, but that's another story.

De cualquier manera, se lo agradezco por todo lo que ha hecho y dicho en este "forum" para hacernos reir, y comprender mas del espiritu del Yi. Usted es muy sabio y astuto.

As for the "Greek Goddess"--duh, probably the Greek characters on her beautiful website would have given it away to anyone smarter than me, but I can't claim the honor. All I really know about Greeks is that I love their wedding cookies, their architecture and their philosophy. And now an I Ching commentator as well.

I am going to write your names in on the ballot. I love the Obama/Clinton possibilites, but have pretty much reached the conclusion that we've been divided and conquered by the Democrat/Republican lines for a long time, and that it doesn't make much difference who we vote for, unless we do something really outside the box.

Ah, politics. #37 on a grand scale.

Buenas noches, y que suenes con los angelitos (you can tell I don't have the proper font for writing in Spanish...).:bows:

Nancy