38.K'uei / Opposition

[rosada]

I wonder if 38's causing you to have lots of thoughts is connected with its nature of being Opposition? You find because your ideas are in opposition to others - as you have others to bounce your ideas off of - you become more aware of your singular point of view?

I am going to not have instant access to a computer for awhile - going South to be with Mom for a few weeks - so I hope those who feel to will post the lines here for us.

 

[charly]

... I am going to not have instant access to a computer for awhile - going South to be with Mom for a few weeks - so I hope those who feel to will post the lines here for us.

Rosada:

Have a good time with your Mom!

Yours,

Charly

 

[charly]

... I hope those who feel to will post the lines here for us.

38.2

Nine in the second place means:
One meets his lord in a narrow street.
No blame.

As a result of misunderstandings, it has become impossible for people who by nature belong together to meet in the correct way. This being so, an accidental meeting under informal circumstances may serve the purpose, provided there is an inner affinity between them.

-Wilhelm/Baynes

 

[charly]

38.2 ... an accidental meeting under informal circumstances...
-Wilhelm/Baynes

The chinese text:

遇 yu4: meet with
主 zhu3: master / lord / owner / chief / leader
于 yu2: at / to
巷 xiang4: lane / alley / narrow street (1)
无 wu2: not / no / without
咎 jiu4: blame / wrong / mistake

MEETING MASTER AT NARROW STREET. NO BLAME.

Masters are always masters no matters the circumstance. Never is wrong to meet with them. But why «no blame» ?

Think that we are recruits wandering by a narrow street maybe at the evening in a strange town far from home.

Character 主 is Master / Lord / Leader but it means a light, a lamp, maybe an euphemism for red lantern:

... oil lamp made of clay 土 which the "leader" holds...a master / a leader / a chief / a host...
from: http://www.chineseetymology.org/Cha...aspx?characterInput=主&submitButton1=Etymology

Say we are going by the red lanterns narrow street, the we see our General coming toward us. What can we do? Impossible to retreat, inevitable to meet with him face to face.

But what are we doing at the narrow street? What is the Chief doing at the narrow street?

Nothing of our own fault, maybe wrong, but because of the human nature «impossible ... to meet in the correct way».

Difficult circumstances.

Yours,

Charly

______________________
(1) From Sears it's also interesting the «lane» character: «巷 ... the thing in the city 卩邑 which all people 共 use». He says «roads» but we can take it as a riddle.

 

[ravenstar]

38.2

Nine in the second place means:
One meets his lord in a narrow street.
No blame.

As a result of misunderstandings, it has become impossible for people who by nature belong together to meet in the correct way. This being so, an accidental meeting under informal circumstances may serve the purpose, provided there is an inner affinity between them.

-Wilhelm/Baynes

Hmm in regard to above statement, thought I'd share this....

"Psychosis is a state of absolute narcissism, one in wich the person has broken all conection with reality outside, and has made his own person the substitute for reality. He is entirely filled with himself, he has become "god and the world" to himself. It is precisely this insight by which Freud for the first time opened the way to the dynamic understanding of the nature of psychosis."

Erich Fromm: The Heart of Man

It just seems to fit so well.

ravenstar

 

[Trojina]

I'm not at all clear what psychosis has to do with 38.2 ? Why do you think it fits ?

 

[ravenstar]

I wonder if 38's causing you to have lots of thoughts is connected with its nature of being Opposition? You find because your ideas are in opposition to others - as you have others to bounce your ideas off of - you become more aware of your singular point of view?

I am going to not have instant access to a computer for awhile - going South to be with Mom for a few weeks - so I hope those who feel to will post the lines here for us.

Oops my apologies I meant to insert the quote here. I tried to delete the other without success. My apologies

ravenstar

 

[Tohpol]

Hmm in regard to above statement, thought I'd share this....

"Psychosis is a state of absolute narcissism, one in wich the person has broken all conection with reality outside, and has made his own person the substitute for reality. He is entirely filled with himself, he has become "god and the world" to himself. It is precisely this insight by which Freud for the first time opened the way to the dynamic understanding of the nature of psychosis."

Erich Fromm: The Heart of Man

It just seems to fit so well.

ravenstar

A true narcissist is absolutely aware of what is false and what is true but he chooses to reside in the fantasy world of self aggrandizement. He is in control of his/her behaviour and aware of the process of augmenting his fake self. That is not psychosis. Clinical depression can cause psychotic breaks as can drug withdrawal. It can also stem from schizophrenia. It's a gross simplification to immediately equate psychosis with narcissism. Fromm wrote some great stuff but he was way off on that one, taking into account the quote might be out of context. But then I don't subscribe to most of Freud's psychoanalytical stuff either.

Sorry, just had to jump in there on that one! Carry on.

(Don't see anything narcissistic about 38.2 either but I'm open to persuasion! )

Topal

 

[Trojina]

Yeah what Topal said. Ravenstar I still don't see what 38 has to do with psychosis or narcissism ?

 

[charly]

Hmm in regard to above statement ... ...Psychosis is a state of absolute narcissism ... Freud for the first time opened the way to the dynamic understanding of the nature of psychosis."
Erich Fromm: The Heart of Man
It just seems to fit so well.
ravenstar

Ravenstar:

I don't undestand too well:

• what statemen?, maybe if you quoted it...
• psychosis = narcissism?, most people thinks so but maybe false (I believe).
• Freud opened...? But meanwhile Jung did work with psychotics Freud didn't!

I respect Fromm, but...

• Maybe you want to say that Wilhelm or Baynes or both were psychotics?
• That the statemen (what statement?) is not intelligent or maybe not intelligible?

Fromm has write something about dreams that he called «the forgotten language».
I belive that the YI is written in a forgotten language, we can intent to decipher it like a dream. Maybe the results had some oniric look...

Might you explain yourself better?

Yours,


Charly

 

[charly]

... (Don't see anything narcissistic about 38.2 either but I'm open to persuasion! )
Topal

Topal:

Wanderers must be very much cautious when they are far from home. They are open minded persons.

I believe that there are some possibilities for seeing narcissism in 38.2 but maybe not psychotism.

Yours,

Charly

 

[Tohpol]

Topal:
Wanderers must be very much cautious when they are far from home. They are open minded persons.
I believe that there are some possibilities for seeing narcissism in 38.2 but maybe not psychotism.

Open-mindedness or lack of open-mindedness is irrelevant here Charly. (On this specific point)

And my point was primarily on definitions given of a mental illness which I considered wrong. The line interpretations secondary.

However, I'll repeat:

"Don't see anything narcissistic about 38.2 either but I'm open to persuasion!"

Meaning I don't personally see anything narcissistic in that line. Being "open to persuasion" means I wouldn't discount the possibility.

Topal

 

[martin]

I think hexagram 38 could possibly indicate autistic or schizoid tendencies, but not necessarily so of course.

 

[Trojina]

Topal:

Wanderers must be very much cautious when they are far from home. They are open minded persons.


Yours,

Charly

Yes but not so open minded their brains fall out.

 

[meng]

Yes but not so open minded their brains fall out.

That's funny, I heard (read) you saying this in my head about an hour and a half ago while I was only half awake, as you once said it about me too. In my mind I replied: having an open mind doesn't mean agreeing with everything you see and hear, it just means not disagreeing with every idea you haven't considered.

 

[Trojina]

That's funny, I heard (read) you saying this in my head about an hour and a half ago while I was only half awake, as you once said it about me too. In my mind I replied: having an open mind doesn't mean agreeing with everything you see and hear, it just means not disagreeing with every idea you haven't considered.

You mean you were hanging out in the clarity astral cafe too Its not my saying someone else said it here once and i thought it was funny.

Anyhow noone did disagree with Ravenstar they simply asked what she meant - and then Charlie makes out Topal is being closed minded which he isn't hes simply asking and so am i, where the connection is. We could have just sat quietly and been baffled but hey what the hells a forum for ? Dare one not ask for fear of admonishment of being narrow minded ?

 

[meng]

You mean you were hanging out in the clarity astral cafe too Its not my saying someone else said it here once and i thought it was funny.

Too funny!

Anyhow noone did disagree with Ravenstar they simply asked what she meant[/U] - and then Charlie makes out Topal is being closed minded which he isn't hes simply asking and so am i, where the connection is. We could have just sat quietly and been baffled but hey what the hells a forum for ? Dare one not ask for fear of admonishment of being narrow minded ?

I hadn't even read this thread at all until I posted that, and I posted only because your comment struck me as being funny, that it happened in real time as well as in my head. Actually, it probably did happen at the exact time you posted. I lost count of how long the semiconscious twilight lasted. It was the time of morning when your brains have mostly fallen out.

 

[Trojina]

I think people sometimes or often occupy the same bandwidth so to speak - we think we are sitting alone in our chairs etc but our thought speeds must connect up somewhere in the ether or maybe right here.

 

[maremaria]

I guess that ravenstar mentioned all this about narcissism, because such a person is SOOOOO in love with himself that lacks the ability to make any healthy contact with others. Everyone , imo, has a Narcissus person which is healthy. But when that trait is in extreme, it becomes a disorder then it’s a problem. Sometimes narcissistic behavior hides insecurities. His/her self worth is threatened from other. Accepting that one has not a valid/correct/ or whatever idea would be devastated. A narcissistic behavior works like a defense mechanism to protect one his/hers own individuality.

Fwiw, I don’t think Ravenstar’s comments are irrelevant with 38. After all, for what I can understand, 38 talks about keep our individuality but also be open to acknowledge the difference in others. Maybe they own something good we can borrow from them.

Maria

 

[Tohpol]

I guess that ravenstar mentioned all this about narcissism, because such a person is SOOOOO in love with himself that lacks the ability to make any healthy contact with others. Everyone , imo, has a Narcissus person which is healthy. But when that trait is in extreme, it becomes a disorder then it’s a problem. Sometimes narcissistic behavior hides insecurities. His/her self worth is threatened from other. Accepting that one has not a valid/correct/ or whatever idea would be devastated. A narcissistic behavior works like a defense mechanism to protect one his/hers own individuality.

Good summary Maria.

Talking of Narcissism I'm presently listening to Marvin Gaye's "Here, My Dear" album. Now he's an an example of pathological narcissist par excellence! But what a voice...:bows:

I guess we should get back to line 38.2 otherwise Rosada will wonder what we've been doing while she's been away...

38.2 for me has always come in times of isolation and confusion. Recently, I often feel very lonely even when I'm out with friends. 38 has come up quite a bit in this regard and line 2 seems to indicate this process of finding your own way or finding that inner Master. It can be something external of course.

I think it links up with this aspect of being open to the unexpected and coming across one's teacher in life when you least expect it and this will propel your forward out of the period of isolation and opposition. For me 38 is a good hex in that it "forces" one back on oneself in order to address things. It requires will, patience and the 21 timing to transit out of that cycle. If we take note and listen to the teaching in whatever form it takes, then we can build up the energy to bite through the opposition. So, line 2 has always been quite an encouraging pat on the back. "Life's a piece of crap at the moment but you know you gonna learn something fi you can trace where are those negative thoughts are coming from"... and once you do it usually transforms into something else. At least, that's what seems to happen. Although I think I'm in a 38 year actually....

Michael Graeme's take on 38.2:

2. Here we seem uncertain of the way, or we are tempted to give up on what we know to be right simply because things are not moving fast enough. If we can recognise such feelings inside of ourselves this should be sufficient warning that we need to watch our direction. If we react correctly to the manifestation of such negative emotions, they can be helpful in keeping us on course.

Topal

 

[Trojina]

I associate 38.2 with a sense of awkwardness - being alone with someone in a weird kind of way - like an accidental intimacy or an unavoidable intimacy. Hmm I think thats where the 'narrow lane' comes in - if you bump into a friend or ex friend in a narrow lane how can you avoid them - you have to speak. So in 38.2 theres often a too close for comfort feel. Last time i had this I didn't bump into someone exactly but had to spend time alone with them due to circumstance - and what occured in that time seemed to be significant.

If no other is involved perhaps it can mean you are dropped in to a circumstance where you have to face up to something you didn't exactly see coming.

Perhaps in 38.2 opposing elements come together thats where the awkwardness comes in - there seems to be no common ground but there is something important in the meeting. Fan yao 21.2 hmm... something so in your face you can't see it. Anyhow in 38.2 you are bought face to face with something - its a line i feel slight trepidation on receiving - and go out wearing a balaclava, lol

 

[maremaria]

“One meets his lord in a narrow street.”

I can’t understand that line. The lord and the narrow street. What purpose serves that contradiction. A narrow street is not a common place you can meet a “lord”. Its not “normal” If 21.2 talks about going deeper, or further than the usual what is the advise of that line ?

Expect the unexpected ? Look for a solution to places are not that usual ?

Topal, what you said about “Recently, I often feel very lonely even when I'm out with friends" reminds me a situations I have been too. What was scary then was the thought that it was “not normal” to be with friends ,I used to enjoy their company but at this specific period I was not happy with them.

Anyone, has an idea what that contradiction between lord and narrow street could mean ?

Maria

 

[charly]

Yes but not so open minded their brains fall out.

Troyan:

Wanderers must be open minded when far from home for not losing the head, which, as everybody knows is a very convenient container for the brain.

Yours,

Charly

 

[charly]

... it just means not disagreeing with every idea you haven't considered.

Meng:

Indeed. And consider at least some new ideas from time to time.

Charly

 

[Trojina]

“One meets his lord in a narrow street.”

I can’t understand that line. The lord and the narrow street. What purpose serves that contradiction. A narrow street is not a common place you can meet a “lord”. Its not “normal” If 21.2 talks about going deeper, or further than the usual what is the advise of that line ?

Expect the unexpected ? Look for a solution to places are not that usual ?



Anyone, has an idea what that contradiction between lord and narrow street could mean ?

Maria

I think the whole point is in this line you don't need to look - you come accross it somewhere you can't miss it like a narrow street. I just see 'lord' as that aspect you need to meet.

 

[martin]

Anyone, has an idea what that contradiction between lord and narrow street could mean ?

My cow Bella has some experience with this line. She received it in a time when she didn't have much freedom. There was not much choice, a lack of options.
Her life path was narrow, her meadow small.
And it didn't feel good at all, with so much greener grass outside the fence. Moo!

But the line said that she would meet her 'lord' in that situation. What did that mean?
I told her that it probably meant that she would meet her inner self. "My what? " she said.
I was wrong though, things turned out quite differently. She finally met Harry, the bull next door!

Was the meeting unavoidable, likeTrojan says? Oh yes, even more than that, it was predestined!
Bella and Harry are twin souls!

Moo!

 

[Trojina]

Well I'm sure shes glad she met Harry rather than her Inner Self

 

[charly]

“One meets his lord in a narrow street.”
I can’t understand that line. The lord and the narrow street. What purpose serves that contradiction. A narrow street is not a common place you can meet a “lord”. Its not “normal” If 21.2 talks about going deeper, or further than the usual what is the advise of that line ?
Expect the unexpected ? Look for a solution to places are not that usual ? ...
Anyone, has an idea what that contradiction between lord and narrow street could mean ?
Maria

María:

The chinese character translated LORD by W/B depicts an OIL LAMP → A LIGHT THAT LEAD US. It could be translated as Lord, usual translations are also Master, Chief, but I believe that we must retain the image of the leading lamp.

The shape of the character is very similar to the character for KING with a little stroke atop, but the original shape is not that of the character for KING.

There is a difference, an opposition:

Wang (King) means a ruler, political authority and power.
Zhu (Leader, etc.) means a counsellor, personal prestige and guidance → Charismatic.

MEET [YOUR] MASTER AT [THE] NARROW-STREET
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
LOOK FOR GUIDANCE AT THE NARROW STREET​

Seek for the person (or things, or signs) that goes to lead you in modest contexts or in whatever context you are.

Don't look for guidance at the royal court, don't require excellence, learn to use what you have at hand.

Another alternative could be to read Zhu as lamp / lantern → lights as signs for guidance.

FIND LANTERNS AT THE NARROW STREET.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
SEEK SIGNS-FOR-GUIDANCE AT THE NARROW STREET​

The opposition between KING and LEADER, between POWER and GUIDANCE goes with another opposition between contexts:

Narrow-Lane: uneasy ways, town suburbs, places allowed for you but where authorities cann't control you nor protect you, your own path.

Wide-Access: very important places, royal courts, owned by high rank authorities, maybe forbidden for you.

Beware of royal courts, beware of kings, I believe is a good advice in a handbook for diviners because diviners were not always kings.

Unpopularity of kings among chinese people is yet present in the Book of Songs.

From another cultural context but also BRONZE AGE:

IL.1.223

Πηλεΐδης δ' ἐξαῦτις ἀταρτηροῖς ἐπέεσσιν
But Peleus' son once again in words of derision

Ἀτρεΐδην προσέειπε, καὶ οὔ πω λῆγε χόλοιο:
spoke to Atreides, and did not yet let go of his anger:

οἰνοβαρές, κυνὸς [ὄμματ' ἔχων, κραδίην δ' ἐλάφοιο,
'You wine sack, with a dog's eyes, with a deer's heart. Never

οὔτέ ποτ' ἐς πόλεμον ἅμα λαῷ θωρηχθῆναι39]
once have you taken courage in your heart to arm with your people

οὔτε λόχονδ' ἰέναι σὺν [ἀριστήεσσιν Ἀχαιῶν
for battle, or go into ambuscade with the best of the Achaians.

[τέτληκας θυμῷ: τὸ δέ τοι κὴρ εἴδεται εἶναι.
No, for in such things you see death. Far better to your mind

ἦ πολὺ λώϊόν ἐστι κατὰ στρατὸν εὐρὺν Ἀχαιῶν
is it, all along the widespread host of the Achaians

δῶρ' ἀποαιρεῖσθαι ὅς τις σέθεν ἀντίον εἴπῃ:
to take away the gifts of any man who speaks up against you.

δημοβόρος βασιλεὺς ἐπεὶ οὐτιδανοῖσιν ἀνάσσεις:
King who feed on your people, since you rule nonentities;

ἦ γὰρ ἂν Ἀτρεΐδη νῦν ὕστατα λωβήσαιο.
otherwise, son of Atreus, this were your last outrage.​

The Iliad, from:
http://www.library.northwestern.edu/homer/html/application.html

Drunk, greedy, coward ... Not always the kings are loved.

Yours,

Charly

 

[martin]

Well I'm sure shes glad she met Harry rather than her Inner Self

In a way she did, but no use telling her

 

[charly]

... Bella and Harry are twin souls!
Moo!

Martin:

What happened with Horace?

Charly