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41:1 — 4 Unsure of meaning

Grdjffsdaughter

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Hi :)

These were my results.

Apologies, I am not experienced in I Ching.

I asked about what would happen if I rejected a religion I have been in a long intense struggle with.

I'm not sure if I should focus on the first hexagram or the second.

And in regards to interpretation, I am really at a loss.
Any perspectives would be much obliged, thankyou.
 

solivini

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With one line changing, look at both and the changing line: 41 (Decreasing, offering up) leads to 1 (Creative Potential).
Line 2 -
Constancy bears fruit,
Setting out to bring order: pitfall.
Not decreasing, increasing it.’

You are trying to offer your heart to this religion, and you feel that you must give to it in some way, or you feel obligated to give to it (41). You keep trying and bear fruit in your efforts, but you're trying to make sense of it all and it doesn't make sense to you. So instead of decreasing your confusion, it leads to more (41.2)

You need to decide for yourself if this religion is right for you. If you have given to it and you still reject it, especially if there is an internal struggle (1), then perhaps it is just not right for you and you need to start over (1).

Basically, what I am getting from this is what would happen if you were to reject this religion that you have struggled with, is that you decrease your attachment to it and you will find a new path that is much more suited to you.

Sidenote: The Universe/Source is not limited. (1) There are many possibilities out there. If you continue to look for your right path, you can offer (41) yourself something that you will find that works with you, instead of trying to bring order to something you do not believe in within your heart because you need time to decide what is right for you (41.2).
 

radiofreewill

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Hi Grdjffsdaughter,

Welcome to Clarity!

"What would happen if I rejected a religion I have been in a long intense struggle with?"
41.1 to 4 ~ Rejecting objects is as unskillful as Preferring objects; flow in the moment from the witness position, instead.

The Big Picture.jpg

I hope this helps!
 
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Freedda

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I hope this helps
I have no idea what this drawing and words are showing. It seems completely unrelated to the reading that this person shared with us?

Rejecting objects is as unskillful as Preferring objects; ...
While that comes across as profoundly spiritual, it doesn't really answer the query and instead i find myself wondering how it's related to the reading, and also questioning, is this instead an example of profound avoidance - what I've heard referred to as 'spiritual bypassing'?
 
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Freedda

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asked about what would happen if I rejected a religion I have been in a long intense struggle with.
Grdjffsdaughter, welcome. I hope you can clarify something: is the response you got 41.1 > 4? Which means you got hexagram 41, with the moving line 41.1, and with 4 as the related hexagram? Is this right?
 

my_key

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Hi there, Grdjffsdaughter

What would happen if I rejected a religion I have been in a long intense struggle with?
41:1 — 4

The situation that you find yourself in is one that is beyond your knowhow just now. You are in a place of incubation and things need time to mature to where you can see the situation more clearly ( Hex 4). If you step back from the religion there will be a diminishing of the the emotional and mental conflict that you find so draining and the space freed will allow you to concentrate on other things ( Hex 41). If you are going to reject the religion then the sooner you make the decision concrete in this reality the better things will be for you. ( 41.1)

This is what Yi is saying to me about this reading but be aware it may be something different that yi is saying directly to you
Good Luck.
 
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Freedda

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I'm going to go with the idea that this reading is 41.1 to 4, as my_key did as well (but it would be nice if you can confirm that).

One name for 41 is 'Decrease' and for me it's exploring the idea of when there might be too much of something in our lives (surplus) and how we might consider decreasing it. One image for this hexagram shows our joy (represented by a lake) being held or stilled (within a mountain). I wonder then, could this be describing that this religion - or your relationship to it - is repressing or putting a hold on your sense of joy or sense of self?

Line 41.1 explores this more: that perhaps you are seeking to - or need to - 'decrease this' decrease, that it would be best to not let your religion disregard or diminsh your own happiness.

So how might you approach this? One description of Hex 4 is that it shows a spring at the base of a mountain, so perhaps it describes your questioning just springing up? Here, for me, you have the idea of 'beginner's mind' where it's okay to ask questions you might not have the answers to, or to even look back on your own life to see if it holds any answers for you.

It could mean revealing stuff that is scary or unknown, but perhaps that might not be such a bad thing? Also, it could mean to consider your first thoughts, feelings and reactions, and to not over-think what you are thinking and feeling.

As an aside, I did mention not just your religion, but also 'your relationship' to it. There's a distinction here: that we don't always need to reject a religion (or anyting), but instead we can consider how to change our relationship to it.

Consider that in all religions there are people who represent the highest, most compassionate, most intelligent aspects of ourselves - and of their religion; but within those same systems of belief you find people - of all religions - whom are hateful and judgemental; they may seem good at obeying the rules of their religion (or imposing those rules on others) but they are not at all good at living by their religion's core teachings.

Consider, for example, that there are Buddhists who set aside their religion's core belief in non-harming, and instead think it's okay to firebomb, destroy and kill others because these people are a different religion and ethnicity. Or consider Catholics who think that their religion should not include care and love for one's home - for our earth - and they set aside the Pope's teachings on this, and instead make corporate profit the core teaching of their religion.

In these and so many other instances, it's not the religion that's the problem, but what people end up doing with it. So, 'decreasing' could mean to reject, or get rid of our religion; but it might also mean that we need to 'decrease' certain aspects of it - such as which rules kill our spirit, or where the idea of 'sin' belittles us, or debases our being - or maybe it means to decrease other's interpretations of what a religion should or should not mean for us.

And again, as my_key said, this is just my understanding of what's being said, and I hope it leads to your own increased understanding.

Regards
 
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Wild Goose

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Hi Grdjffsdaughter, I'm also not experienced in I Ching either however being in a similar boat I wanted to give my two cents.

So 4 often comes up in 'teaching' questions for me, and for 41.1 many translations talk about being careful not to become slavish, be taken advantage of or endlessly enrich those above and in superior positions. So maybe the answer isn't in necessarily rejecting your teachings (though of course you can still do that) so much as rejecting anywhere your desire to serve and do good diminishes you in anyway.
 

solivini

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So...lol
I’m just realizing I was not even in the right line or relating hexagram. 😂

Still kind of funny how there were similar aspects of advice in my totally wrong hex line change from those of you who actually got it right. I’m not sure how much sense that makes...

I will try my best to refrain from posting after a glass and a half of wine. 😂😂. Sorry to be so flaky.

But just so that I don’t take away from the thread, I really liked what everyone said and definitely agree with it. Sorry to confuse the lines, Freedda!
 

radiofreewill

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From the WB for 41:

THE JUDGMENT

DECREASE combined with sincerity​
Brings about supreme good fortune​
Without blame.​
One may be persevering in this.​
It furthers one to undertake something.​
How is this to be carried out?​
One may use two small bowls for the sacrifice.​

What are these two small bowls that bring about such supreme good fortune without blame for the sincere practitioner? What is this sacrifice?

How about two cupped hands folded meditatively into your lap in the Witness Position...

...rather than:

Grasping and Dwelling on, or Averting from...

...the Objects in the Stream of your Thoughts?

If you Decrease these activities of Mind...

[Grasping/Dwelling/Story-telling and Looking Away/Nothing Matters]

...then you will have supreme good fortune without blame (it's a promise).

It furthers One to "undertake" something means to see-through ego...

[by cupping your hands presently in the Witness Position]

...something you can be persevering in...

...until the end...

...of ego/separateness...

...and re-union with the Great Ancestor.

Many Blessings!
 

rosada

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You don't tell us what is causing you to consider rejecting this religion. I wonder if it has too many theories and teachings for your liking? Like you are wanting to 41. Decrease the reliance on dogma and increase 4. direct experience? (Hexagram 4 comes up for me when there is a situation that can't be understood by thinking or talking but must be lived to understand it, so in this case I could see it as saying you are frustrated with all the religion's rules when what you really want is the experience of the Beginner's Mind that has no preconceived ideas about what one should believe.)

Perhaps you should start by dropping SOME of the (to you) unnecessary rituals and focus on what drew you to this religion in the first place. Like to be a good Christian one must endeavor to love thy neighbor, whether one must also practice fasting and flagellation seems to be an individual choice.

Or perhaps 41.1 is saying the opposite, that rather that abandoning your religion you should learn more about it, get MORE into it - decrease playing around and being a fool.

Or maybe it's saying you can't really know what effect Decreasing your religious practice will have until you leave it and 4. Experience your life without it.

I got 41.1 - 4 one time when I asked about leaving a food co-op I'd joined thinking it would save me money and have me eating better. This wasn't happening so I wanted out. The changing line said to me that the one problem with my leaving would be as to whether my dropping out would be hard on the other members of the group. I took this into consideration, made a point of fulfilling the commitments I'd made and then left. As far as I can tell there were no negative repercussions.
 
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Dotsbox

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Hello Grdjffsdaughter,

I would like to add a little to the discussion so far. It is a topic that can easily lead to answers that betray the leanings of the writer, myself included, so my apologies, trusting you will only take on board what might be relevant.
To me, 41 suggests that offering 'just two simple baskets' is a sincere offering from the heart. By leaving your religion you would be offering up a small part of yourself and trusting that it would lead to something better. You discard only the trappings of what defines you as 'you'. Your true inner essence remains untouched.
The relating hexagram, 4, may be recognising that it can be very helpful not to know, thus allowing for your growth and development without all that 'baggage'. Hence the words,
'not knowing, creating success'.

I see line 1 as very encouraging for a move away.
From a trigram perspective, the inner trigram Lake, could be seen as what you need to change, possibly accepting a loss of the social and interactive aspects of your religion, and replacing Lake with Water which suggests a deeper exploration of your self in this matter, what you hold on to as sacred, and what you discard, as others have suggested.
If you are still unsure about what to do, you could always ask the I Ching, 'what if I stick with this religion?' and compare replies.
 

Dotsbox

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After all that, I did not think to answer your question about which hexagram you should concentrate on.

Well, Hilary could answer this better than me, but I generally go by her book which sees the hexagrams working together as a conversation. The primary hexagram (41) is the subject of the question and it is what your answer involves. The relating hexagram (2) describes what the answer means for you. She says the most important and immediate answer is in the changing lines, in this case line 1 and this takes precedence over the hexagrams.
 

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