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41.3 - How much is three

heylise

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I guess I am not the only one wondering about the three people in 41.3. There are enough examples of three people staying good friends or partners for many years. Or doing something really worthwhile, without anyone leaving prematurely.

Today I was talking about it with a friend and suddenly it hit me. In other places in the Yi, three simply means "a few", more than 2, but not especially limited to 3. Maybe here as well.

My own experience with cooperation is, that one or two people can make something happen without any trouble. Not always of course, but there is a good chance, if they have the right connection together. As soon as there is one more, the connection is different. Like voting, with 3 you can outvote someone, not so with 1 or 2. Starting an enterprise with 3 (or more) will always bring an amount of trouble as well. The one who leaves might be a person - or a dream of one of them - or part of the result. Someone or something is leaving.

In the fanyao, 26.3, everyone is busy doing things, working hard. So it makes sense that 41.3 also has something to do with doing things. Not just walking together and losing or finding one person.

In the question of my friend, this way of seeing three made sense of an otherwise obscure answer. It told her that waiting for that person, who never seemed to do what was expected, simply meant that she herself (or she with partner) had to be the source of the power, and others were only helpers - or not. They were not part of the source of power.
 

Liselle

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I guess I am not the only one wondering about the three people in 41.3. There are enough examples of three people staying good friends or partners for many years. Or doing something really worthwhile, without anyone leaving prematurely.

In cases where a group is working well, do you think we'd even get 41.3 in a reading? I wonder if anyone has an example like that.

Example of 41.3 > 26 - a work-related automatic confirmation had not appeared in my email. What now? I eventually decided to email my boss about it, and when I did I got an out-of-office reply, which said in part that if anyone was responding to such-and-such notice, email person X. I hadn't even gotten the notice, which was important to me. If I hadn't walked on by myself and emailed my boss (thus seeing the out-of-office note), I would have missed out. (Or something like that. 41.3 is confusing.)
 
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hilary

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41.3 zhi 26... it's the 26 aspect of/ angle on 41, or the way 41 does 26. Which is naturally going to be odd or paradoxical, because how can decreasing ever mean great accumulation or great taming?

Answer: when it's a way of being in a stronger position, eg with more influence, more connection, better relationships. That's what you gain by having a friend - whereas in a bigger group you might have no say at all. (With three people, you can have politics: two insiders and an outsider. You can't have one insider and one outsider with two.)

I think it makes sense to read the line as a story:
'Three people walking,
Hence decreased by one person.
One person walking,
Hence gains a friend.'
The one person who leaves the group is the same one who gains the friend. That's someone doing Great Taming with Decrease.

Oh, and Stephen Field says, 'it means that the two remaining become friends.' Good point!

I also think the paired line, 42.4, might continue the story:

'Three people walking,
Hence decreased by one person.
One person walking,
Hence gains a friend.'
'Moving to the centre,
Notify the prince, he follows.
Fruitful to use this to inspire trust in moving the city.'


The lone walker gained a friend: the prince. A personal connection can inspire trust in ways a majority vote - let alone 'everyone says so!' - never could.
 

bradford

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the odd will try to get even
or
the unstable will seek stability or equilibrium
 

Trojina

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I don't think I've ever, not even once, found any of the above to apply, as far as I could see anyway, to my real life readings. This is odd because it's probably about the only line in the book I never saw play out in any intelligible way relating to the text at all.

Does anyone have any actual reading experiences with this...apart from Lisa ? I'll go and double check the journal but memory is telling me none of the ideas above about this line have been discernible for me in actual readings as yet
 
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diamanda

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Does anyone have any actual reading experiences with this...apart from Lisa ?

A few years ago I had this reading (41.3 > 26) , on the morning of a day when I would have a meeting with HR, about my redundancy. I needed to have a witness during that meeting, but that was sorted (I thought), as my colleague R had already agreed to come along (and he had also come along to the previous meeting). It turned out that R was ill that day and didn't come to work. I asked another colleague, K, if she could come along as a witness, and she agreed.

The second example I have is back in March/April this year. I had some horrendous readings (they all proved true unfortunately) and so at some point I asked in exasperation, will anything nice happen to me during March/April? Got 41.3. During a holiday at my native country, we fell out with my best friend there, but luckily another friend was visiting, and had a fab time with her.
 

hilary

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Looking through my journal... I have three business-related ones, and they all came in response to questions about doing things for groups (running a class, running monthly calls for Change Circle). I think the message each time was, 'You can't forge a meaningful relationship with a group, but you can with one individual at a time.' Which is certainly true.

Also I think the 'third party' can sometimes be an idea or ulterior motive rather than a person. Not seen that in my readings, or not incontrovertibly, but it's been a possibility in other people's.
 

Liselle

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Trojina, would you want to post your readings that don't fit, and maybe we can learn something? Other angles on this?

(Maybe you don't want to or you would have already.)
 
M

maggie may

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Hey LiSe,

That is a great question and consideration. It’s one that had me pondering. Here is shot at it with trigram-y imagery:

Lake is the inner quality, the questioner. The image is pleasant exchange at the watering hole. Movement in line 3 is at the surface of the lake. This is where we see the lake and what is reflected. I imagine comfortable conversation in a leisurely environment. There is also superficiality to it. It is not deep, though still pleasant.

Mountain is on the outside. It is massive and still. There are caves and heights and cliffs. The whole of the mountain cannot be reflected in the surface of the lake. Line three is deciding. Yin at 3 could stay and have pleasant conversation (with the two yin lines above it). Yet yin feels the outer, the attributes of mountain, as a pull, an interaction, with the outer environment. Outside is the peace, stillness and individuality of the mountain. Yin looks to the strength and height of mountain (yang line at the top).

Line three is on the cusp, the top of the trigram, on the surface of balance, going with in, meditation, individuality. This cannot be felt at the surface of the lake chatting with friends. The going alone is individuality, an inner journey. This is movement, arousal, at the place of the lake’s surface and just before the mountain cave.

The trigram of lake can also suggest approaching in consideration of true sources of joy. Let the lake be fed with fresh, clean sources that bring joy. Let that feed the doing, the movement, or the motivation. Enjoy the exchange with others and the reflection at the surface. Bring that inner quality to the stillness, strength and individuality of the mountain.

In this imagery, I see line 3 in the place of the pleasant exchange, superficiality, group, social environment (the three) and interacting with the solitude of mountain (the one). The many (three) is diminished for the individuality (one).

Thank you and best wishes.
Maggie
 

Trojina

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Trojina, would you want to post your readings that don't fit, and maybe we can learn something? Other angles on this?

(Maybe you don't want to or you would have already.)

No, especially since I've rarely had this line without other lines.
 

heylise

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I got 41.3 once, with two other lines, when asking how to get on with my plans. Not especially about the plans themselves, but about how to get the work done. I saw 41.3 back then as “need friends/helpers but not too many”.

I didn’t see that really play out though. There was not much opportunity to change anything in that respect myself.

I have my “Mirrors”, or line pathways, as Hilary calls them. For the pathway 41.3-42.4-25.4-26.3 I have as ‘all over theme’: “If you want to get something done, then do it, the power is in YOU”. Back then I had not yet this idea about 1 or 2 being powerful versus 3 or more being weaker, but two of the other lines were clearly about doing things, getting things in order, so I thought 41.3 and 25.4 might be in that same vein, and both didn’t contradict that. Even though they didn’t look like that at first sight.

My own view on the trigrams would be:
Lake inside Mountain changes to Heaven inside Mountain. The social lake in the individual – or inside anything solid – changes to the creative power of Heaven. Which is exactly what you need to get substantial results.
 
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svenrus

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I guess I am not the only one wondering about the three people in 41.3. There are enough examples of three people staying good friends or partners for many years. Or doing something really worthwhile, without anyone leaving prematurely.

Today I was talking about it with a friend and suddenly it hit me. In other places in the Yi, three simply means "a few", more than 2, but not especially limited to 3. Maybe here as well.

My own experience with cooperation is, that one or two people can make something happen without any trouble. Not always of course, but there is a good chance, if they have the right connection together. As soon as there is one more, the connection is different. Like voting, with 3 you can outvote someone, not so with 1 or 2. Starting an enterprise with 3 (or more) will always bring an amount of trouble as well. The one who leaves might be a person - or a dream of one of them - or part of the result. Someone or something is leaving.

In the fanyao, 26.3, everyone is busy doing things, working hard. So it makes sense that 41.3 also has something to do with doing things. Not just walking together and losing or finding one person.

In the question of my friend, this way of seeing three made sense of an otherwise obscure answer. It told her that waiting for that person, who never seemed to do what was expected, simply meant that she herself (or she with partner) had to be the source of the power, and others were only helpers - or not. They were not part of the source of power.

Having heard and read Fairytales a lot of times: an interesting quistion indeed. In most european fairytales the number Three playes a kind of magic role. Somehow too Three "breaks the line" making it a triangle, the first of the geometrical figures beside the circle. The circle having no numbers, except for the number One if You count the Point or Center in it....
"The third time is where the mystery loosen up - The princess got her prince etc. etc." And many other associations been found in fayrytales.
This not to answer Your quistion HeyLise, just to point out it's relation to another area.
Btw "it's the gateway to The tenthousand Things" (Laozi, Daodejing)
 

Yasmin

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This is an old thread, but for posterity I will add my experience of it anyway.

In romantic relationships, it did not bode well. In two different cases, it alerted me to a blockage in the relationship - an infidelity, or a lingering attachment to an ex, or an addiction/ mood problem affecting the relationship. Anyway, it was a signal (which I bitterly resisted!) to move on, and find a more emotionally available partner.

But the reason I looked up this thread today is because I cast it asking if it would be possible to fix a problem with an ongoing refurbishment - something was made too large, I asked it if could be shrunk. And I will try my best to update once I see how this plays out, but for now, I am quite stumped as to the meaning of this line in my case!

-Interesting that I got "41- decrease" about shrinking something:) Very litteral... But the line puzzles me.
-Maybe too many people got involved and the original plan got "lost", they just did what they thought would be best, without consulting me? Ie, I got left out of the decision loop. That would be a statement of fact, not a prediction.
-Or maybe I need to sacrifice this idea (Which would be the third thing that is in the way), and put my head together with the engineer to find a solution around it?
-And then there is the 26 context- study precedents, build up knowledge, and restrain, accumulate power. is it even feasible / reasonable to try to fix this at this stage? what have other people done in this situation?

So. I still have an incomplete understanding of this line, when the situation doesn't involve a romantic relationship.
 

heylise

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-Interesting that I got "41- decrease" about shrinking something:) Very litteral... But the line puzzles me.
-Maybe too many people got involved and the original plan got "lost", they just did what they thought would be best, without consulting me? Ie, I got left out of the decision loop. That would be a statement of fact, not a prediction.
I saw many times a 'statement of a fact' in answers. Often it gave me a nice feel, like a good friend who does his/her best to understand, and knows what you mean. And then giving some directions, and you know they have been thought through.

I got this line once when something was not under the direction of one person, who felt accountable, but instead there were several. Then nobody feels as if it depends on themselves. No ill will, it just works that way.

So I think it is both a statement of a fact and also pointing out how it should be done. Can you make one person responsible to make things right? Or be that person yourself. Or find out who should have done it in the first place. Or else, find the one who should reimburse. Try to talk to one person. Not to a firm, to several people, or to someone who is not in charge and has to bring it to someone else's attention. Make it one-on-one, if possible.
 

Yasmin

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The cast may still be playing out, and perhaps it may play out over a long period. But for now, I can confirm that
1) I was somehow left out of the loop - cast in the role of a 3rd party
2) I have had to let go of the shrinking concept- I got used to used to the new configuration. It seems the idea was the 3rd party. Now it's all about integrating it into the overall plan.
3) I have been working one on one with several people.
So my short hand for the 41.3 cast in non-romantic situations so far is: "out of the loop", "may need to let go of a concept to make progress" and. "Working one on one", and it can be with a series of people.
 

Tohpol

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I agree with Trojina that this line has seldom played out as the traditional text suggests. Many times it seems to be about how logic and feelings are pulling in opposite directions and sometimes in order to achieve "equilibrium" one has to decrease the tension, association, emotional investment, identification etc. so that you retain an economy of energy. With that comes a greater clarity and release from whatever it was with which you overly identified.

I did have only one reading from about 8 years ago which fit quite literally. I was sharing a flat with three people and one of these individuals was proving very unpredictable to the point of creating great disequilibrium. Eventually, he did depart as it was unsustainable and it was just the two of us, which worked very well, although more expensive!

Mostly, in my own experience 41.3 has referred to how I've had to do a little DIY on the psyche in order to attain that balance. That often involves some kind of sacrifice that may appear to be moving away from our desired direction, hence that paradox. But this is an illusion - it will pay dividends for the immediate or long term future. That's hard to see sometimes, so it's a line that's difficult to make sense of if we interpret the text too literally especially for our Western monkey minds because it's so classically Taoist.
 

Trojina

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Yes...and this phrase 'out of the loop' from Yasmin particularly resonated for me with the line (so I put it in wiki)

So my short hand for the 41.3 cast in non-romantic situations so far is: "out of the loop", "may need to let go of a concept to make progress" and. "Working one on one", and it can be with a series of people


..I'm thinking, looking at my own readings where I had the line there was an opportunity in being 'out of the loop'...generally it makes you go elsewhere. One can be 'out of the loop' in all kinds of ways, not being able to become part of things in groups and liaisons, sometimes just not being 'in the know', not having information, it might feel like a kind of exclusion (if referring to social/community matters) but there's an opportunity there to find pastures new. This is another way of saying metaphorically 'three's a crowd' I guess it's just it makes more sense to me as 'out of the loop'
 

Yasmin

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I cast 41.3 at a time of utter frustration because some building work was simply not happening. I couldn’t understand they relevance at the time- I couldn’t give up on the project and move on, or find other builders to take on half way through.
Anyway, it turned out that they were busy with another project that had higher priority to them (the 3rd party), but once they finished that, I got their undivided attention, and they were eager to please and went the extra mile to deliver.
So in this case, I was forced by circumstances to “stay alone” for a time, but eventually I did get rewarded for my patience.
 

heylise

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I got this line several years ago for a situation which still applies today. It is the reason for my interpretation of 'three not working because nobody thinks it is his/her responsibility'. Thankgod I am personally no part of it, and now not involved at all anymore in any way. It never changed, all these years nobody ever took any responsibility.

One of the three should leave, I think. But especially that one holds on dearly to his position of 'honor'. No matter if he does something or not.

Until everything stops because they run out of money.

So even though the third does not leave, the line is here also very literally about the number 3. I think that applies for all oracle-answers. They can be totally literal, but they can also have a much wider or vaguer meaning. Even within one answer.
 
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svenrus

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Two male-birds with one female-bird in a box = Hell
Two female-birds with one male-bird in a box = Nirvana

:rofl:
 

heylise

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LOL, you really think so? The character for envy is an image of 女 'woman' and 户 'household'. In Karlgren (if you're interested in old characters, his book is a must-have) 户+女'women'. He automatically takes the plural.
 
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svenrus

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No. Just played with "three" in another context. One old friend of mine had these canary birds and they made a terrible noise because he had two males and one female in one and the same birdcage (not: box, sorry)
 
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heylise

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You're right, in the animal world it is usually as you said. But I have a friend who made friends with a jackdaw, a female. Her boyfriend (the bird's, not the friend's, and including the nest) was stolen by another (bigger) female, and it was hell until she gave up.
 
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svenrus

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Finally I found it ! Since You initiated this thread "How much is three" it reminded me of an old thread I was participating in.
The number three got a role to play there back then.

HERE

(There are some dead-end-postings along the way but the subject is about "three")
 

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