41. Sun / Decrease

[Tohpol]

Yes line 3 is a tricky one. I've always had to do multiple searchings for that one...

Here are a few renderings to hand:

6 at 3: Three people moving, then the rule is one person is diminished. One person moving, then the rule is one finds a friend. Everybody creates his own future by what he acquires and what he discards. Amassing, whether of things or of people, means diminishing spirituality and individuality. Two is company, three is a crowd. Relying on spiritual exchange instead of crowds of things or people opens the door for real emotions and contact.

http://www.yijing.nl/i_ching/hex_33-48/hex_e_41.htm

3.Two’s company, three’s a crowd. In such a triangle one will leave. Perhaps it will be you. If so, be assured you will not walk alone for long.

http://www.dreamhawk.com/iching04.htm#Hex041

4. The fourth SIX, divided, shows its subject diminishing the ailment under which he labours by making (the subject of the first line) hasten (to his help), and make him glad. There will be no error.

http://sacred-texts.com/ich/ic41.htm

110001 3) If we cling to false ideas, this prevents the good ideas from entering our heads. Letting go of our delusions we open ourselves to the power of inner truth, and to the inspiration of the Creative. We cannot lean both ways, looking both to fate and to our rational senses to provide a solution. These two friends are pulling in opposite directions and trying to associate with them both at the same time will lead only to discord.

If we are serious in our quest, we should understand this will involve working with psychological forces that are by their very nature irrational, we are inviting occurrences that are by their very nature acausal. This requires a suspension of
disbelief, and a faith in the unknown to bring these things about. The rational, the calculating, the controlling powers of the ego, none of these are of any use to us here.
Michael Graeme 2006

One gains support and three move as one,

When one person makes a stand, others will join support. One for all and all for one. To be effective, a group of people must work as one. Letting go of individual needs and desires.

Sorrell

Diminishing. The offering.

'When there are three people moving they will be diminshed by one.

When one person is moving he will acquire a friend.'

This means the three are doubtful. If you are involved in a triangle, it will soon become a couple. If you are alone you will soon have a friend. You will acquire the Inner Companion.

Karcher

3. Collaborating with two partners in an undertaking leads to an unstable situation for the vision resulting in the alienation of one of them, whereas a partner will be found if the vision undertakes an initiative alone. (Resulting in: Conservation).

http://www.laetusinpraesens.org/docs/ching/ching41v.php


Line 3: "Get over yourself and get with the picture." - Harey-Mahareshi Topal

 

[Trojina]

Line 3: "Get over yourself and get with the picture." - Harey-Mahareshi Topal

 

[dobro p]

41.3 is often so hard to interpret in divination when there aren't 3 anything in your question,let alone people

It just means that by a real or apparent reduction somewhere in the situation, all the elements find their proper places. "Two's company; three's a crowd" can apply to more than a third wheel in a romantic situation.

 

[Trojina]

It just means that by a real or apparent reduction somewhere in the situation, all the elements find their proper places. "Two's company; three's a crowd" can apply to more than a third wheel in a romantic situation.

Ah that makes sense. Its not that I didn't get the principle of 41.3 though, just it so happened that each time I've received it as an answer I failed to see how it could apply. But thats my problem Still i like the way you put it, it clarifies

 

[meng]

Two more existential ways I've found this line to apply, outside of the more obvious of there actually being three people, has involved attitudes. For example, if there is me and another person, and I (or they) have a bad attitude or mood, that attitude acts as a third person. Either the attitude will have to go or the other person will go. Taking this a step further, one person has a dual nature, and so a disruptive attitude can work the same as with the two people scenario: I can not be in harmony with myself when there is a disruptive attitude. Either the attitude will have to decrease or part of me has to decrease, or there can be no unity.

 

[dobro p]

Yeah, it works intrapsychically, too, like you say. (Now, *there's* a word you don't stumble across every coffee break.)

Here's another one, true story. A guy's dying in a hotel room somewhere. He looks around at the room and says: "Either me or this wallpaper has to go," and expires. 41.3

 

[Trojina]

Here's another one, true story. A guy's dying in a hotel room somewhere. He looks around at the room and says: "Either me or this wallpaper has to go," and expires. 41.3

Thats surreal

 

[rosada]

"Either that wallpaper goes or I do."
-Oscar Wilde, last words.

 

[rosada]

41.4
Six in the fourth place means:
If a man decreases his faults,
It makes the other hasten to come and rejoice.
No blame.

A man's faults often prevent even well-disposed people from coming closer to him. His faults are sometimes reinforced by the environment in which he lives. But if in humility he can bring himself to the point of giving them up, he frees his well disposed friends from an inner pressure and causes them to approach the more quickly, and there is mutual joy.

 

[rosada]

The fault of the six in the fourth is excessive weakness.
A weak line in a weak place, it is inclosed above and below by
weak lines. However, through its relationship of correspondence to the strong first line, these faults are compensated.
Through elimination of these faults, the six in the fourth place hastens the helpful coming of the nine at the beginning, which brings joy to both and is not a mistake.
-Wilhelm

 

[rosada]

This thread has been kinda quiet and so i want to take a moment to revive our attention because line 41.5 coming up is really fabulous.

The Image advises, "The superior man controls his anger and restrains his instincts." This sounds like 41 is about controlling one's ego, one's sense of individual self. The lines seem to describe a story line where one is unknown and must wait for an opportunity to show what one is capable of.

41.1 then would be advising it is not helpful to give up all sense of self, to beg to be accepted..

41.2 seems to be the ideal then, the ability to know your worth and to have the patience to wait to be called on. Maybe like a football player on the bench?

41.3 Line 3 is weak here, and not a part of the group formed by the first two lines, yet it has the potential to connect with the strong line 6. I think it says a lot about having faith - like a trapez artist letting go of one partner and flying through the air to another.

41.4 While line 3 seems to be about letting go of what is familiar of the outer world in order to move forward, line 4 seems to be about shedding personal armor or prejudices.

I'm seeing the story so far as being about inwardly knowing you are here for a purpose and even when the outer world doesn't recognize you and maybe even you yourself don't know why you are here, 41 counsels how to calm the fears and move forward with faith that ultimately one will connect with their true position - 41.5

Well, this is just me muttering. All other interpretations eagerly welcomed.

 

[dobro p]

41.5 doesn't actually mention decrease, and it doesn't image it either, but I think that somehow decrease is contained in the line simply because it's in Hex 41. I mean, every line in any hexagram is contained in the context of that hexagram's main meaning, right? So, I think that 41.5 is about decrease. Okay, so what kind of decrease? Dunno, but the Yi says it's wonderful - that the universe would never oppose it, whatever it is. Rather than there being a connection with the Fan Yao, I think it's more likely the connection is with the main meaning of Hex 61.

Because the line is so auspicious, I think it applies to those situations where, not only are you doing the right thing, but it's exactly the right time from the universe's point of view as well. (Does the universe have a point of view? Well, you know what I mean anyway.) Sometimes what you do harmonizes with the evolution and flow of the universe. Sweet.

 

[meng]

41.5 and 42.2 both avail great opportunity and potential to the recipient, but only the recipient can bring it about, in 41 through decrease, in 42 through increase.

The idea of decrease and increase working as one is a vital one. Like a tub of water, the density of water going first to one side, then reverse and going to the other. It is one body of water, and it can't be at two places at one time. So it is here, and then there. It never goes away in a way where it won't come back. We just need to be ready for it when it returns. This is my understanding of the way.

(Does the universe have a point of view? Well, you know what I mean anyway.)

Dobro, I think you've worded the question perfectly. A universal point of view. I like it more than, say "God's will". One of those questions worth pondering throughout a lifetime, imo.

The universe does its/his/her/their part, and it's up to us to do ours. We must open to receive the seed, and must close in order to protect and grow it in ourselves. Then we bring increase to the universe, and the universe brings increase to us. But, in order to increase, we must decrease. For the water to go there, it must leave here. Preparing two small offerings prepares us (in us) to receive the increase.

 

[rosada]

0 Six in the fifth place means:
Someone does indeed increase him.
Ten pairs of tortoises cannot oppose it.
Supreme good fortune.

If someone is marked out by fate for good fortune, it comes without fail. All oracles - as for instance those that are read from the shells of tortoises - are bound to concur in giving him favorable signs. He need fear nothing, because his luck is ordained from on high.

If he is enriched, ten pairs of tortoise shells cannot oppose it, and supreme good fortune comes. The number ten is suggested by the nuclear trigram K'un. The tortoise belongs to the trigram Li - which of course can be read into this hexagram only by straining the point considerably. A large tortoise used for fortune telling costs twenty cowrie shells. A double cowrie shell is called a pair. Accordingly, one explanation takes the line to mean a tortoise worth ten pairs of cowrie shells. Another explanation reads it as referring to ten pairs of tortoise shells. Blessings from above is suggested by the strong top line covering the hexagram protectively.
-Wilhelm

 

[rosada]

41.1 I love to help so much I would do it for free, but people don't want to take advantage of me.
41.2 So I don't offer to work gratis, I just let the other person pay me what they feel is fair.
41.3 But what I'd really like would be for them to kiss my toes and beg me to stay with them always. They never do, and I've come to accept that after a friendly moment, I must relinquish my positon and move on.
41.4 When I give up my ideas of how people are and how they should treat me, it's amazing how many people want to help me.
41.5 My friends help me anyway they can. I tell them they have done way too much for me but they just laugh and say, "Don't oppose fate! We like what we are doing."
41.6 I help my friends, they help me. Everyone feels blessed, no one feels taken advantage of. We are each other's servants, all living on this one grand estate.

 

[Sparhawk]

One of the things that come to mind, after reading a lot about the Yi and ancient Chinese history, is the surprise that Wilhelm never mentioned that a more real possibility, in the mentioning of the tortoise shells in that line, is that it may refer to repeated oracular consultations and not to the itemized value of the shells. They use to do multiple cracking consultations about a same issue. The ten pairs of tortoises may refer to that and the majority of those results agreeing with the will or lucky fate of the subject of the line. Remember also that the spirits seemed to "agree" with the rulers, plus they used to be the diviners themselves (more like the ultimate "interpreters" and the ones with final "say") and if he saw that, for a given issue, the trend of several shell crackings would agree with his take of it, then we would, conceptually, have a line text such as this. In not "opposing" there is an implicit "agreeing with". Perhaps obvious but worth mentioning.

 

[rosada]

I'm not convinced the interpretation should be stretched to say that "cannot oppose" is the same as saying the tortoise shells are predicting good fortune.

I watch the day to day happenings in my life to see if they give some insight into the meaning of the hexagram line we are studying here. Today I got a check for some work I had done which was more than my own records indicated I would be paid. This seems to fit in with "Ten pairs of tortoises cannot oppose it." My own records, my tortoise shells, predicted my paycheck would be small, yet "Someone does indeed increase" me, and I experienced "Supreme good fortune."

In the over all meaning of the hexagram perhaps this line is indicating that when one is not expecting a lot - has Decreased one's demands - then people feel to want to share and what comes in is then more than expected.

 

[Sparhawk]

I'm not convinced the interpretation should be stretched to say that "cannot oppose" is the same as saying the tortoise shells are predicting good fortune.

Well, I was very careful not to mention the prediction of "good fortune" in my comment. I spoke of "trends" occurring along a series of shell crackings and how they could be interpreted by the diviner/subject. I believe they used to average the results of the crackings, which were simple up or down cracks, very similar to the Chinese character for divination, bu 卜. Therefore, if after cracking ten pairs of shells, the average result would agree with his take of the issue, then it would be interpreted as "not opposing" him/her.

 

[rosada]

Cracking ten pairs of tortoise shells and taking the average? Boy, I guess it's not only us modern types who can't be satisfied with just one reading.

 

[meng]

I believe the fact remains that, while nothing may oppose good fortune, we as the benefactor must at least be cognizant of the good fortune offered by the time, or by fate, or gods, or neighbors, or strangers, or weather, or a dozen or so IC readings. Cognizant: a couple of small recognitions, two small offerings. "Yes, I receive that, I am cognizant of it." And a "thank you" never hurt much, either. It is the opposite posture from entitlement.

To me, 41/42 have a lot in common with 11/12, in that they both represent ebb and flow, wax and wane, to and fro go the way. An important theme of 11 is the ability to procreate, that is, to assist heaven and earth in the creative process.

 

[Sparhawk]

Cracking ten pairs of tortoise shells and taking the average? Boy, I guess it's not only us modern types who can't be satisfied with just one reading.

Nope. Actually, multiple readings, on any given issue, were quite common.

 

[fkegan]

Rosada-- I'm not convinced the interpretation should be stretched to say that "cannot oppose" is the same as saying the tortoise shells are predicting good fortune.

Cracking ten pairs of tortoise shells and taking the average? Boy, I guess it's not only us modern types who can't be satisfied with just one reading.

Sparhawk: Nope. Actually, multiple readings, on any given issue, were quite common.

Hi Rosada and Luis,
There are many references at all levels in the Yi commentary and Wilhelm to the prior Shang tortoise shell divination which was totally different than our Yi oracles. The greatest difference was that the Shang tortoise shells, which have been found in large heaps from various centuries, were often in either/or pairs. The articles on the subject note one of the major topics--found inscribe on many tortoise shells in these heaps was:

Will it rain tomorrow? X Will it not rain tomorrow? X

The X's were holes put into the shell for the cracks to form around. A good answer, one worth paying cowrie shells to the diviner, would have a clear positive answer to one question and a clear negative result to its negation. No averages, just rules as to what was a good crack response and the simple requirement that at least two responses were needed for a properly authoritative answer.

Ten pairs of such tortoise shell oracles would be far more impressive than just one and would give one a clear sense that the answer was confirmed. Not exactly promising good fortune, necessarily, but a total Cosmic certification of the Yes/No answer to the question being asked.

Another way of looking at the meaning of this line: It is the ruler of hex 41, a moving yin line in the 5th place which changes hex 41 into hex 61. Each of the lines of hex 41 deals with the various perspectives of how a decrease or loss can be made into a holy sacrifice with beneficial personal results. In this 5th place of overall organization or the mind, the transition is accomplished in one's total attitude. If you feel yourself blessed (or increased) this will result in great good fortune as if you received 10 Shang era tortoise shell oracles are certifying your correctness--thus this timing of hex 41 will move toward hex 61 Inner Truth.

Frank

 

[rosada]

# Nine at the top means:
If one is increased without depriving others,
There is no blame.
Perseverance brings good fortune.
It furthers one to undertake something.
One obtains servants
But no longer has a separate home.

There are people who dispense blessings to the whole world. Every increase in power that comes to them benefits the whole of mankind and therefore does not bring decrease to others. Through perseverance and zealous work a man wins success and finds helpers as they are needed. But what he accomplishes is not a limited private advantage; it is a public good and available to everyone.

 

[heylise]

Luis posted a link to a great article

I just scanned this article
Some observations about Milfoil Divination based on Shang and Zhou bagua Numerical Symbols

It seems the Shang knew already yarrow divination, and esteemed it very highly. Often divined with tortoise shells and milfoil both, and found the milfoil better.
So it would make sense that they divined with tortoise shell, even divining ten times, which was not at all uncommon, and got a 'bad' answer. Then also divined with yarrow and got a 'good' answer.

Even all those ten tortoise could not oppose the answer of the yarrow.

LiSe

 

[rosada]

Very helpful insights!

Any thoughts on 41.6?
We have been hosting a family reunion here this weekend. Seems a perfect manifestation of the line:

"If one is increased without depriving others,
There is no blame."
The families have brought all the food with them. As they don't want to take anything back home with them, we will have enough leftovers to feed us for a week.

"Perseverance brings good fortune.
It furthers one to undertake something."
I organized children's activities, which not only delighted the little guys, but gave me a role and a feeling of belonging which I might not have otherwise had as these are all my husband's relatives.

"One obtains servants
But no longer has a separate home."
How true! There were so many people I didn't have to lift a finger, but it was no longer a separate home.

It was a wonderful weekend. I make a point of talking about this because from now on I will think of this as being a wonderful line. Really a glimpse of heaven.

 

[charly]

41.1 I love to help so much I would do it for free, but people don't want to take advantage of me.
41.2 So I don't offer to work gratis, I just let the other person pay me what they feel is fair.
41.3 But what I'd really like would be for them to kiss my toes and beg me to stay with them always. They never do, and I've come to accept that after a friendly moment, I must relinquish my positon and move on.
41.4 When I give up my ideas of how people are and how they should treat me, it's amazing how many people want to help me.
41.5 My friends help me anyway they can. I tell them they have done way too much for me but they just laugh and say, "Don't oppose fate! We like what we are doing."
41.6 I help my friends, they help me. Everyone feels blessed, no one feels taken advantage of. We are each other's servants, all living on this one grand estate.

Rosada:

This is an amazing love story. I believe you'r quite right.

For 41.5 PENG in chinese means, as you surely know, FRIEND, The YI seems to be speaking of the FRIEND'S TURTLE or, maybe, of the FRIENDLY TURTLE. and I don't go to say you what «turtle's head» means in chinese.


或 huo4: maybe / perhaps / might / possibly
益 yi4: increase /
之 zhi1: 's (subor. part.) / him / her / it /

十 shi2: ten / 10 / [maybe only for enphasizing → very]
朋 peng2: friend /
之 zhi1:'s (subor. part.) / him / her / it [maybe ... of friend → friendly]
龜 gui1: tortoise / turtle /

弗 fu2: not / do not
克 ke4: subdue / to restrain
違 wei2: to disobey / to go against / to oppose

元 yuan2: primary / first / great / supreme
吉 ji2: lucky

Temporary rendering of 41.5:

Possible to increase it.
[The] very friendly turtle.
Do not restrain disobeying / opposition
Supreme luck!

In time of diminishing do not restrain the opposite mouvements (the increasing): great luck!

Yours,

Charly

 

[rosada]

Hey, thanks Charly!

I like you're idea of 41.5 meaning not diminishing the movement towards increasing.

 

[rosada]

When we first approached 41 I assumed it would be following up on 40. Breakthrough, which I see as being about forgiveness, that once a person has broken through the old rules, the old attitudes that have restrained, it is important not to hold grudges but to forgive and move on. So I thought 41 might be about forgetting as in
40.Forgive and
41. Forget.
Interesting that those words can be shortened to "Give" and "Get" as 41. seems to be about how to Give and Get.
Anyway, I'm not so sure 41 has much to do with forgetting anymore, but it does seem to tell how to heal the family fabric that may have been ripped apart from 37 - 40 when the consciousness has tried to merge with the group but then emerge as an individual. The solution 41 offers is no one person, family member need dominate, but all are to willingly share whatever one can with an emphasis on the willingness, not on the gift itself. There seems to be a key lesson in line 41.3 - always the trickiest position in the hexagram - and I think it is counseling how to deal with those who cannot share. That rather than having hard attitudes, to have faith and keep looking. Consider
41.1 The desire to help the other by giving. (I will give you the shirt off my back)
41.2 The desire to help the other by not giving. (But my shirt wont fit you, it will only burden you)
41.3 The ability to move on, control anger, restrain instincts, when help is not given.
(Keep your shirt on, I will keep looking.)
41.4 Having diminished one's desire to help or be helped by a specific person or in a specific way all opportunities open. (I don't feel bad that in this one instance I was unable to contribute)
41.5 The sincere desire to give is what's important, not the actual contribution. Once you are willing to give, you get. (Shirts showing up from all over? Miracles.)
41.6 Ultimately transcending concerns of give and get - we contribute freely when we can, don't when we can't, knowing that the desire to give is still alive and ultimately that we own nothing, share everything.

 

[fkegan]

Hex 40 to hex 41 a change of primary set

Interesting question what is the relationship of hex 40 and hex 41. The traditional commentary just notes that with release comes loss--perhaps on the grounds that whatever isn't tightly held might escape.

However, there is as you note a very great difference between the details of hex 40, and even the hexagrams from 37 (or even all the way back to hex 31) where this family relationship theme begins.

Here we have a new theme, not so much about the loss itself but more on the effects and consequences that will flow from the various means of carrying out this loss or sacrifice.
It is the first of this new set of 10 hexagrams that will end with the stately ritual vessel for domestic sacrifice--the Ting.

Frank