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My idea about 44.5 is not something that spoils quickly and turns out to be not what you wanted.

But that it is a answer to the problem of being infiltrated by a negative inferior force or guest. You don't shove the guest out the door rudely because that would upset the atmosphere... You entertain and welcome the guest - "treat them as you want to be treated", and "eventually they fall to your disposition"...

This is indeed a situation that takes great self restraint - if someone is being very rude for example in a proper social gathering, that person must not be glared at or treated in the like (as they are behaving) for that will only increase their power and influence.

Thus your restraint is the covering of the seed. The seed is your dignity - if you loose your restraint you spoil your dignity - but if kept "covered" (by self restraint) you protect yourself from this negative influence.

--

My idea about Karcher's idea of coupleing is not far off the mark. He seems to look at it more in terms of sexual energy. Basically it's possible to put it anywhere for that is the virtue of the yijing (and perhaps how divination really works).

I agree it's possible to look at it that way. But if you see it as coupling the only problem is it clouds the idea of it being anything but. He doesn't seem to have the depth in his interpretation ...

--

Aside from that I just wanted to say that it probably isn't just about a "WOMAN" it is just anyone or thing who is in a feminine position. I strongly suspect that as a very classical metaphor for that which is outwardly feminine - not by Wilhelm but by the text itself (although I cannot read the characters or have tried access to it)
 
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dobro p

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Also not much mentioned in this thread is the boorishness/pushiness/disrespect of boundaries the 44 encounter can bring. In my experience at least its not always to do with the glamour of seduction, far from it. More often its someone who wants to impose their will but with a bit of a sweetener, like a bait, so that for a moment one is tempted to join with them but a moment is about all one can afford when they're out to steamroller you lol. 44 can also be about force and domination, the overriding of ones will, a kind of rape mentality.

And true to the nature of 44 we have got sucked in by over sexualising its message. 44 is about all sorts of things in life that are pushy, intrusive, demanding of our energy, which will ultimately drain us if we give it too much space in our life. So we have to have a quick feel and let go thats all - theres nothing to say that feel won't be exquisite though (no wink icon available in edit mode but 'wink'.)

I think you've feminised 44 here - you've translated the symbols of 44 into a woman's point of view. But here's my very interesting question (I don't ask many, but when I do...) does it mean the same now as the traditional symbol of the woman who's not to be joined with? Now that the image is of a guy that should trigger warning lights in you, does it mean the same? Does the danger of getting raped hold the same meaning as the risk of getting together with a girl you ought not to do that with?
 
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maremaria

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Maybe the “woman” is all the things opposite to rational thinking. A strong man maybe can lose his mind falling in love with such a seductive woman or do things that other characterize as madness. I don’t believe a amount of madness is wrong. Thinking too rationally sometimes is like sealing our life and don’t let creativity enter and work.

I still don’t’ understand Wilhelm’s point. Looks like temptation or passion is always leads to fatal mistakes. Maybe its that scorpion nature of mine, lol, but I can’t agree totally with him.
 

Tohpol

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I think you've feminised 44 here - you've translated the symbols of 44 into a woman's point of view. But here's my very interesting question (I don't ask many, but when I do...) does it mean the same now as the traditional symbol of the woman who's not to be joined with? Now that the image is of a guy that should trigger warning lights in you, does it mean the same? Does the danger of getting raped hold the same meaning as the risk of getting together with a girl you ought not to do that with?

Yes. imo It's all energy dynamics, though the stakes may be higher for women as history attests.

But that was for Trojan I'll butt out. :D

Topal
 

Trojina

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I think you've feminised 44 here - you've translated the symbols of 44 into a woman's point of view. But here's my very interesting question (I don't ask many, but when I do...) does it mean the same now as the traditional symbol of the woman who's not to be joined with? Now that the image is of a guy that should trigger warning lights in you, does it mean the same? Does the danger of getting raped hold the same meaning as the risk of getting together with a girl you ought not to do that with?

I can't see how I have over feminised anything ? Though of course I will translate anything to a womans point of view as i am a woman. Hmm 'translate' ? Well i would have translate, a woman is not going to tempt me. I don't really get your point ? Remember I was not referring to the physical act of rape necessarily but I said 'rape mentality' by which I meant not caring if someone is receptive or if you will harm them or not in the encounter. I was not, in writing my post, particulary imaging a man here, or a woman in fact, so I think you and Topal have misunderstood me. I take the 'strong' in 44 to be that which is intrusive, pushy, overbearing and well, selfish. I find in 44 encounters other parties are not much concerned for one, their ends are often selfish. That is just my personal view at the moment.

Re your end comment underlined as i say I was not necessarily referring to the physical aspect of man/woman rape but what I see as more of psychic rape - being lured in perhaps by someone who pretends to be all sweetness and light only because they wish to manipulate you, make you do their bidding, ensnare you, lure you away infact from your own self sufficiency, ultimately weaken you. Ultimately that may also be the aim of the temptress woman....losing your own centre, losing your self which is good short term only
Hmm the above may be a little over dramatic but i trust you get my drift.
 
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dobro p

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I don't really get your point ?

Maybe I didn't explain it clearly enough. Okay, think of two images:

1 A lone girl among a group of mean, a girl who a man wouldn't take home to meet mom.

2 A guy among a group of women, a guy who's probably not to be taken home at all, let alone to meet mom.

What do these two symbols have in common, meaning-wise? Something you shouldn't unite with, essentially. But is there any difference between the two symbols? I think so. I think the one with the untrustworthy guy carries more threat. Getting together with a loose woman involves risk; getting together with a loose guy involves threat.


Remember I was not referring to the physical act of rape necessarily but I said 'rape mentality' by which I meant not caring if someone is receptive or if you will harm them or not in the encounter. I was not, in writing my post, particulary imaging a man here, or a woman in fact, so I think you and Topal have misunderstood me. I take the 'strong' in 44 to be that which is intrusive, pushy, overbearing and well, selfish.

Yeah, I understand you're talking about rape mentality, but even 'rape mentality' is seldom applied to the way a woman treats a man. But men are often 'intrusive, pushy, overbearing and selfish' when they're interested in a woman. Women on the other hand, when they're interested in a man, can be many things, but in my experience are not often intrusive, pushy, overbearing and selfish. See, I'm not criticising what you've said, I'm asking a question about it. When you shift the genders in the Yi image, does it change the meaning? I think so. That's one question. Another question is your experience of 44, which is interesting (unpleasant, but interesting).
 

Trojina

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Maybe the “woman” is all the things opposite to rational thinking. A strong man maybe can lose his mind falling in love with such a seductive woman or do things that other characterize as madness. I don’t believe a amount of madness is wrong. Thinking too rationally sometimes is like sealing our life and don’t let creativity enter and work.

I still don’t’ understand Wilhelm’s point. Looks like temptation or passion is always leads to fatal mistakes. Maybe its that scorpion nature of mine, lol, but I can’t agree totally with him.

I think you're taking things too literally here. Remember theres no reason to think 44 is literally about a man falling passionately in love with a seductive woman. Your mind has attached that scenario to 44 - it isn't there inherently I don't think - well if it is it is only metaphorical. Its says nothing either about madness nor rationality.

I don't think Wilhelm is saying passion always leads to fatal mistakes. And who says 44 is really about passion ? Is the word 'passion' in there or is it your word ? See I reckon you've attached a whole group of stuff to 44 and what you believe 44 to be against and its not there in 44 its in your ideas about love/passion versus rationality/madness - like you are trying to make these things either/or but its not like that. Rational people may be the most passionate, 'mad' people may be very boring...but why am i saying this ? all those ideas have not much to do with 44 but to do with idealisations of passion and so on. Cliches infact about what passion is and cliches about rationality being inimical to passion.

All I'm saying is if you step back from your current associations with 44 which seem to be to do with the madness of passion you may get a clearer picture. I don't think 44 is about being wrapped up in passion but being gripped by something that may long term gobble you up and spit you out as it ensnares your will... and losing your will to another is never that much fun long term anyhow. Short term it may be a blast lol

Of course it may well be about a whole lot more too I don't know, I'm only speaking from what I've perceived, but whats there may not be based wholly around the passion/rationality angle you seem to feel it is now.
 
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Trojina

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Yeah, I understand you're talking about rape mentality, but even 'rape mentality' is seldom applied to the way a woman treats a man. But men are often 'intrusive, pushy, overbearing and selfish' when they're interested in a woman. Women on the other hand, when they're interested in a man, can be many things, but in my experience are not often intrusive, pushy, overbearing and selfish. See, I'm not criticising what you've said, I'm asking a question about it. When you shift the genders in the Yi image, does it change the meaning? I think so. That's one question. Another question is your experience of 44, which is interesting (unpleasant, but interesting).

As far as I'm concerned I haven't shifted genders, you said i did. Perhaps subliminally but thats inevitable since a woman can never be an object of seductive charm for me. Actually I think others miss the meaning of 44 by focusing too much on the woman as desirable. Hmm though of course the female does come to meet the male (the hussy :flirt:) so perhaps this gender aspect is an aspect I've overlooked too much, perhaps shifting genders would change the meaning alot.

What I don't get about 44 is what it has to with the Image of "Disseminating commands"
Any ideas Dobro the Wise ? :flirt:
 

dobro p

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What I don't get about 44 is what it has to with the Image of "Disseminating commands"

That's 'disseminate' not 'inseminate' lol.

It's because of the wind trigram, right? The way it moves from one place to another. You get the same movement image in Hex 20 because of that same trigram, if I remember rightly.
 

getojack

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Also interesting to note the character Gou4...

gou4.gif


which is translated by S. Wieger as "copulate; good" and by W/B as "Coming to Meet".

Take away the left-hand "woman" radical, and you end up with hou4...

which is in the Image...
后以施命誥四方
hou4 yi3 shi1 ming4 gao4 si4 fang1

translated by W/B as "Thus does the prince act when disseminating his commands / And proclaiming them to the four quarters of heaven." which, IMO is rather wordy for just 7 Chinese characters, but hey, whatever...

Interestingly, hou4 , translated by W/B as "the prince", is alternatively translated by S.Wieger as "queen; empress; sovereign"... this queen, then, disseminating her commands to the 4 directions, is etymologically related to the strong woman in hexagram 44's "Coming to Meet"... which changes the meaning of the Judgment considerably...

The woman is strong... Do not use, getting a woman...

(if you don't use the woman, then you get a woman... a queen, actually...) :D
 

hilary

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I really like what Maremaria's writing here. Of course, it all fits with my own ideas, so I would, wouldn't I? :eek:

I don't think I've had these experiences Trojan's talking about, of meeting another person with a 44-ish agenda. I suppose I've thought of 44 more in terms of what the encounter means to the person encountering the 'strong woman', less in terms of what her motives might be. And that tends to be a heady combination of fertility, complete unpredictability, and disruption/ undermining of everything that's stable and assured.

The 44.5 job offer is for one where you never know from day to day what you might encounter or what you might be called on to do. You might well not want to keep it for long, though that would depend on how much you enjoy stability.

As for the Image, and what that has to do with the basic idea of Encountering or Coupling... I'm not sure, but I think it's important that this is the prince (or queen - the character's close to the name of 44 itself), not the king. He receives orders, or a mandate, via the king, and makes it his own, broadcasting it to the four directions of the kingdom. He's inwardly moved, penetrated and shaped (xun) by the enduring power of heaven.

If this relates to the Zhouyi text at all - and it would be odd if it just ignored it, the Daxiang authors were pretty wide awake - then the way the prince responds to the mandate parallels the way one can respond to what falls from its source in heaven in line 5. Which, to my mind, has a lot to do with conception, which in turn has a lot to do with powerful women.
 
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meng

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I have no trouble connecting Maria's comments directly to Yi's texts, literally or symbolically. Man as mind and woman as feeling/intuition/emotion is, to me, a basic premise of IC. Also, I like the idea of man (in 44 context) losing his clear thinking mind in favor of being crazy over her, bewitched, charmed, enraptured. Whether literal or metaphor, makes no difference, as they both exist in every human.
 

Trojina

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I really like what Maremaria's writing here. Of course, it all fits with my own ideas, so I would, wouldn't I? :eek:

I don't dislike Marias ideas i was answering her question when she was asking something like 'why is passion not good in 44 according to Wilhelm' and I was saying 'why do you think its 'passion' here. The thing i wonder about the evergreen 44 debate is people seem to want to make of it something they like Why ? Maybe 44 is unpalatable ? Why try to make it into something palatable and glamorous and exciting and all that. Even if it is for a while i don't think it brings much in its wake

I don't think I've had these experiences Trojan's talking about, of meeting another person with a 44-ish agenda. I suppose I've thought of 44 more in terms of what the encounter means to the person encountering the 'strong woman', less in terms of what her motives might be. And that tends to be a heady combination of fertility, complete unpredictability, and disruption/ undermining of everything that's stable and assured
.

I've never experienced nor seen in anyone else readings 44 being a heady combination of the things you said above - unless being ripped off is heady, lol

The 44.5 job offer is for one where you never know from day to day what you might encounter or what you might be called on to do. You might well not want to keep it for long, though that would depend on how much you enjoy stability.

Maybe

As for the Image, and what that has to do with the basic idea of Encountering or Coupling... I'm not sure, but I think it's important that this is the prince (or queen - the character's close to the name of 44 itself), not the king. He receives orders, or a mandate, via the king, and makes it his own, broadcasting it to the four directions of the kingdom. He's inwardly moved, penetrated and shaped (xun) by the enduring power of heaven.

If this relates to the Zhouyi text at all - and it would be odd if it just ignored it, the Daxiang authors were pretty wide awake - then the way the prince responds to the mandate parallels the way one can respond to what falls from its source in heaven in line 5. Which, to my mind, has a lot to do with conception, which in turn has a lot to do with powerful women.

It still seems so unrelated to me to the 'coupling' in 44 I still can't really see how the image connects.
 

Trojina

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Maybe the “woman” is all the things opposite to rational thinking. A strong man maybe can lose his mind falling in love with such a seductive woman or do things that other characterize as madness. I don’t believe a amount of madness is wrong. Thinking too rationally sometimes is like sealing our life and don’t let creativity enter and work.

I still don’t’ understand Wilhelm’s point. Looks like temptation or passion is always leads to fatal mistakes. Maybe its that scorpion nature of mine, lol, but I can’t agree totally with him.

To be clear this is Marias post which i was last responding to. I was saying Wilhelm does not say passion always leads to fatal mistakes anywhere as far as I can see. So how can she not agree with him when he does not say that in the first place.

I think equating yin to passion/woman/lack of rationality and yang to man/rationality/sterility of emotion is a bit of a lazy (and unreal) cliche - not aiming that comment at Maria (as thats not what she said exactly anyway) but just in general its an assumption too easy to fall in to and I think its a mistake to equate that with the principles of yin and yang too closely. though i guess to some extent it may be inevitable.

I say unreal for I do not find men the sole possesors of a rational mind and the abiltiy to think clearly, lol nor do I find women to have sole possession of the faculties of intuition... and further to link intuition with 'madness' is doubtful. You see if you do you just fall back into old oppressive cultural cliches which aren't a 'basic premise' of the Yi as Bruce said at all....maybe Jung thought it was a basic premise of the Yi thats all but he was a product of his time as much as any of us

I wonder why the debate of 44 goes on and on and I think it is because noone is ever really convinced of the 'newer' ways of seeing it . If everyone felt it to have truth there would not still rage this controversy over it. Maybe there is more to be known than we yet know, maybe noone has 'got it' yet ?
 
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meng

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Trojan, so then you don't see each individual as possessing both male and female qualities, and you see no evidence of this idea in the Yijing?

And in case you do see individuals as possessing both heaven and earth, and the other six trigrams, what attributes do you assign to male and female energies?

Or do you think all that is just bunk? It would helpful to understand where you're coming from with these denials of what others plainly see.
 
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meng

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You know Trojan, you keep saying people are projecting their own meanings where they don't exist. Could it be that you're projecting your own beliefs that they don't exist where they actually do? Your projection of your own negation?
 
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meng

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general comment...

There are only 64 hexagrams, made up of only 8 trigrams, which are intended to represent all there is on earth. If these meanings don't exist within this order of trigrams and hexagrams, where do they exist?

Do we just deny they exist? Or maybe we create another group of symbols and assigned meanings. But the same type images will continue to arise, regardless what system is used; they'll just have different names and formulas.

Maybe in the final wash there is no meaning to anything. That wouldn't surprise me. Like Campbell was asked: What is the meaning of life? And he answered: Life has no meaning! What meaning has a flower! I have no problem with that.

But, while here in a natural order, to mark time and progress, we find the meaning we seek in the elements. They may or may not be painted in realism, and as often in impressionism, which is no lesser art.
 

Trojina

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I can see theres no use trying to explain further since by calling my ideas a 'denial' (why cos they are different to yours and what others 'plainly see' ?) you have tried to negate/ deny everything i just struggled to articulate.. Its worth bearing in mind that when others, many others, 'plainly see ' something its likely a stereotype. IOW I have seen it and I want to look beyond it. I think you are trying to reduce my argument to mere contrariness which it isn't.

Its okay carry on without me. I'm quite tired of 44 anyway
 

rosada

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I think this feeling that the "debate about 44 goes on and on" as trojan puts it, is part of the very essence of 44, part of what makes it so dangerous. It is the Wild Thing that has no boundries, it lives beyond the boundries of right and wrong and asks us to move forward on faith and instinct. Consider it's position in the sequence. Although 43's name is "Breakthrough", it is really not about breaking through something unless you mean by breakthrough the breaking through of a limiting mental barrier. "Breakthrough" when you read the individual lines is about moving forward as a group. The breakthrough is the breakthrough of understanding that comes to realize that Decrease and Increase are inseperable, just as all the events of our lives are connected and inseperable and we cannot move forward unless we accept all the days of our lives. So the Breakthrough could be illustrated as a bubble that includes not just the singular person, not just this one day, but a whole group of people, all the people and all the events of our life that make up who we are. We will not evolve alone, but as we rise in consciousness, we will see all the events of our lives as connected and we rise together. But now having come to this awareness of group, 44 brings us an awareness of what is outside of the group, that wild unintegrated aspect that we also crave. Beyond the orderly system of Decrease and Increase and Group Support is the untamed wilderness and we long to tame it, to organize it, to control it. But the woods have dangers we know nothing about and yet we crave it. The Lure of the Unknown. Interesting that next comes 45. Gathering Together. We now gather together with our friends, the people we know, the people who responded to the call of the Prince's commands, the call to order, but after 44 we realize that within the people we thought we knew there is a wild side, that Decrease and Increase may not always manifeat as we expected - and thus the superior man renews his weapons in order to meet the unforeseen.
 
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hilary

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That's a nice take on the sequence!

Another one on the step from 44 to 45: if there is a new queen arriving at 44 (note I say 'if'!), one who brings all kinds of change and difference, then at 45 we gather to meet her, and to reassert who we are and where we're going, with a purpose and a narrative sweep so great that it encompasses even her. This identity is so big and strong that it even embraces the unpredictable.

I'm interested in the way Trojan obviously has a consistent set of experiences with this hexagram, and so do I, and these are different. What goes on here? Maybe we just interpret a similar set of experiences differently - but maybe we need to pool the experiences to create a more complete picture of 44-ish things.

I think - could be wrong, of course ;) - that Trojan was suggesting we're sliding towards describing men as rational, etc, and women as irrational, etc, rather than describing male/female aspects of character present in either sex. And that way lies laziness and stereotyping, and sweeping conflations of subtle ideas. Which is fair enough, only I can't see a way to talk intelligibly about what we encounter in 44 without talking about powerful women.
 

heylise

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Hexagrams 43 and 44 go together, two aspects of one ‘myth’ or archetype or story or situation or however you want to call it.

Seen from the literal man-woman-and-seduction point, this is a great 43-44 video.
Hips don't lie
This one is better quality than the one on YouTube but it might take longer to load.


She about his 43:
Oh baby, when you talk like that
You make a woman go mad
So be wise and keep on
Reading the signs of my body

He about her 44:
Hey girl, I can see your body moving
And it's driving me crazy
And I didn't have the slightest idea
Until I saw you dancing

She about his 44:
Oh boy, I can see your body moving
Half animal, half man
I don't, don't really know what I'm doing
But you seem to have a plan (43)

He about the 43 of the situation:
No fightin' no fightin'

I think 44 can be about very bad up to very good things, like every hexagram.
The character translated as announcing means also ‘imperial mandate’,
“The prince when disseminating his commands and proclaiming them to the four quarters of heaven.”
Or: the queen when carrying out her mandate proclaiming it (as imperial mandate) to all four regions (no idea why Wilhelm talks about heaven here, it has rather to do with the land, the country).
Does not sound like something bad, but it might be quite dangerous. Being queen or successor to a king could be a risky job back then. Same for choosing the right queen.

I think the image the writers of the Yi use here is very concrete, the queen giving birth to the new heirs who will spread out in the whole country/era. It can be an image for lots of very different things, all with this same basic image. Asking about a business, a mountain, a house, an attitude towards your children, to all those questions 44 can give an answer. Usually it has nothing to do with literal conception of a baby king. It is a metaphor.

LiSe
 
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maremaria

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I think you're taking things too literally here.

Nope, I don’t. Maybe its not easy to everyone to make the connections, but I can understand that. Funny while this conversation take place here I was in a place where we lets say(metaphorically) playing games about literal/symbolic.

Remember theres no reason to think 44 is literally about a man falling passionately in love with a seductive woman. Your mind has attached that scenario to 44 - it isn't there inherently I don't think - well if it is it is only metaphorical. Its says nothing either about madness nor rationality.

From here it seems you take too and only literally what I’m saying that’s why you are probably confused.

I don't think Wilhelm is saying passion always leads to fatal mistakes. And who says 44 is really about passion ? Is the word 'passion' in there or is it your word ? See I reckon you've attached a whole group of stuff to 44 and what you believe 44 to be against and its not there in 44 its in your ideas about love/passion versus rationality/madness - like you are trying to make these things either/or but its not like that. Rational people may be the most passionate, 'mad' people may be very boring...but why am i saying this ? all those ideas have not much to do with 44 but to do with idealisations of passion and so on. Cliches infact about what passion is and cliches about rationality being inimical to passion.

All I'm saying is if you step back from your current associations with 44 which seem to be to do with the madness of passion you may get a clearer picture. I don't think 44 is about being wrapped up in passion but being gripped by something that may long term gobble you up and spit you out as it ensnares your will... and losing your will to another is never that much fun long term anyhow. Short term it may be a blast lol

Good advise!!!!

Of course it may well be about a whole lot more too I don't know, I'm only speaking from what I've perceived, but whats there may not be based wholly around the passion/rationality angle you seem to feel it is now.

The power woman here, imo, it can be anything. A person, an idea , the other half of ourselves.

Maria
 

Sparhawk

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Seen from the literal man-woman-and-seduction point, this is a great 43-44 video.
Hips don't lie
This one is better quality than the one on YouTube but it might take longer to load.


She about his 43:
Oh baby, when you talk like that
You make a woman go mad
So be wise and keep on
Reading the signs of my body

He about her 44:
Hey girl, I can see your body moving
And it's driving me crazy
And I didn't have the slightest idea
Until I saw you dancing

She about his 44:
Oh boy, I can see your body moving
Half animal, half man
I don't, don't really know what I'm doing
But you seem to have a plan (43)

He about the 43 of the situation:
No fightin' no fightin'

I love it!! Anyone that can connect Shakira's lyrics to the Yi has my vote... :D
 

Trojina

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Maria its my impression that theres these kind of conversations about 44 dotted all over the forum and its my impression that its a hexagram you've bought up for diiscussion a number of times - so I was beginning to think some part of you was not sitting quite comfortably with the views Bruce and Lise and maybe others had about 44 so I was just bringing in my perspective on it. Not meaning to say "Maria you are imagining things, you are deluded, you are wrong" thats not what I meant to convey but if it came across that way to you I'm sorry.

I was aware you were using metaphor but somehow the metaphor was not really working for me mainly because I personally don't experience 44 this way - nor do I see others do so. For example I think you got 44.4 about your work/health situation recently where it seemed others at work were making unreasonable demands on you - to me thats 44. I couldn't see where in that the 'wild', irrational exciting element came in that some talk about. If you do and makes sense to you, you stay with that...but this being the discussion part of the forum I think I should be able to prod a metaphor about a bit if it doesn't work and question the route a number of people seem to be heading down

I have to say I do think there is a missing element to 44 otherwise similar conversations about it would not keep arising over and over. Sometimes it even feels like theres a 'campaign' for the defence of 44 launched every couple of months. If people were really sure about it I don't think that would happen.

Anyway I really don't mind how people think of 44 -
 

Sparhawk

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Remember the forest, ya'll (using Paula Deen's accent... :D) Perhaps we should blame Tolkien for giving us powerful sentient trees but it was the forest, even in his books, that had the power. :bows:
 
M

meng

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I can see theres no use trying to explain further since by calling my ideas a 'denial'

I wasn't calling your ideas denial. I was saying that you consistently deny what others see.

And as far as your ideas on 44, what ideas? I read you saying all the things 44 are not, and all about others reading into what isn't there. But I don't hear you say much at all about what 44 is. Do you sum 44 up as a bad mood? What is it? And then, what advise or council do you see given there?
 

Trojina

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I'm not inclined to discuss my thoughts about 44 further here with you since your tone has become aggressive and whatever i say you seem to take as an affront to your personal beliefs about it.

I'm always wondering why its okay for you to contradict anothers opinion which you do fairly frequently but not for me. Infact when you do it its 'discussion' rather than denial hmmm ? I smell something like a real double standard and whats weird is my posts weren't even addressed to you. Infact not long ago you said you put me on ignore so why are you reading my posts anyway. I'm not at all interested in personal arguments which is what you are clearly trying to ignite. Discussing a hexagram hardly warrants this level of aggression. I don't think so far I have wittingly set out to insult anyone so would you leave me alone please. Thankyou

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meng

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Poop or get off the pot, Trojan. Put up or shut up, and stop whining.

What does 44 mean to you?
 
M

meng

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I haven't even asked you the hard question: where to reassign all these meanings we misguided ones have been attributing to this hexagram?

But then, you haven't bothered to even try to answer my other 7 questions. So I asked only the one simple question.
 

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