45(3,6)-33, professional question

[movablue]

please help me with this reading: i asked " which way can i advance in my profession ?" and i got a contradictory answer : 45 (3, 6)- 33
i'm working in a hospital but i'm not content anymore about my activity there (i feel i stagnate, everything looks the same, boring and intelectually obstructed )

Wilhelm/Baynes' translation of the lines confuses me ( hex. 33 is even more obscure )

 

[Trojina]

please help me with this reading: i asked " which way can i advance in my profession ?" and i got a contradictory answer : 45 (3, 6)- 33
i'm working in a hospital but i'm not content anymore about my activity there (i feel i stagnate, everything looks the same, boring and intelectually obstructed )

Wilhelm/Baynes' translation of the lines confuses me ( hex. 33 is even more obscure )

Looks to me like your answer shows precisely what you said you felt. In 45.3 one is not very comfortable, there isn't a sense of belonging, its awkward, theres not much point in remaining in that group, which here is the hospital. 45.6 shows parting and sadness at parting and 33 shows withdrawal from the situation.

Perhaps you should take heed of your feelings as valid indicators of whats right for you in your life. Your feelings say quite clearly you're not happy, nor content and it all looks stagnant. Well that because that is the truth for you now, its not the best environment for you. With this answer I imagine withdrawing from this place is not very far from your mind. Looks plainly like you need an exit from this particular sutuation

 

[willowfox]

" which way can i advance in my profession ?" and i got a contradictory answer : 45 (3, 6)- 33

It appears that you are having problems with your co workers at the hospital, you need to make friends, you probably need to change your attitude.
Hex 33 is advising you to stay where you are for the time being, this is not the time to make any advances.

 

[movablue]

thank you for your interpretations
It's not very clear for me what the i ching "predicts" or suggests or simply speaks by its answers; it is possible that an answer reflects the present and nothing else?! or in this situation the meaning is no possible to advance for the moment, stop (maybe later, please ask again later )...and how could you make the difference between present and the probably future?

in my question i wanted to find a solution to get off of the present professional situation (and not a description of the situation which i know very well ...) or more exactly to find the proper way for me to develop myself...
???

 

[willowfox]

The IC is saying that you are to blame for your predicament, that is why it is throwing the description of your situation in your face, for you to see and understand and then to realize that no progress will ever be made unless you change your attitude.

 

[Trojina]

thank you for your interpretations
It's not very clear for me what the i ching "predicts" or suggests or simply speaks by its answers; it is possible that an answer reflects the present and nothing else?! or in this situation the meaning is no possible to advance for the moment, stop (maybe later, please ask again later )...and how could you make the difference between present and the probably future?

in my question i wanted to find a solution to get off of the present professional situation (and not a description of the situation which i know very well ...) or more exactly to find the proper way for me to develop myself...
???

your feelings tell you what to do. if you burn you hand you move it from the flame. here the Yi confirms your feelings that you aren't happy . If you aren't happy you will probably change something but its up to you to figure what to do, or may be think of alternatives and ask the Yi about that. Sometimes Yi only does reflect the situation back to you, which may be annoying but does make you realise your future is in your hands on this one.

The way forward would be to think how you might change the situation and ask the Yi about each option you come up with

 

[movablue]

Sometimes Yi only does reflect the situation back to you, which may be annoying but does make you realise your future is in your hands on this one.

The way forward would be to think how you might change the situation and ask the Yi about each option you come up with

probably it is because i asked to IC from a solution and didn't "propose" myself a concrete one (sign that i am proactive, really concerned to make a step ahead? even if that step were to change my attitude to my co-workers ? )

 

[Trojina]

probably it is because i asked to IC from a solution and didn't "propose" myself a concrete one (sign that i am proactive, really concerned to make a step ahead? even if that step were to change my attitude to my co-workers ? )

FWIW I think the answer shows you move on, you leave the place. Trying to get on better with co workers just won't really work, 45.3 shows that. 33 shows withdrawal. If theres a step ahead to be made its not in the current environment, thats what the answer underlines. Thats what I was saying in my earlier post.

you seem to find the answer and the comments on it completely useless though so I'll leave it there.

 

[bamboo]

movablue,

Yes, frustrating to have the situation reflected to you this way, but in one sense it is valuable to know that your desire to leave is in sync with the time. 46 clearly says your time there is pretty much exhausted for you, but perhaps you can do the same work on your own? or as a consultant?

Perhaps 33 is advising you to simply step back and take a breather, retreat and plan things out, investigate your options for moving elsewhere, find out what is important to you. This is necessary before you embark on a search. Make the decision that a retreat from this job is the next step for you and then see what ideas spring from this decision/commitment. Good luck!

 

[willowfox]

Don't forget what the question was;

" which way can i advance in my profession ?"

If a person is having trouble with co workers then it is certainly not a time to try and move against the tide. Line 45.6 tells her exactly what to do under the circumstances, have a genuine change of attitude and then people will warm to her much more readily. Hex 33 is just saying don't try and advance at this time as there are to many obstacles in the way, bide your time until the situation improves.

 

[bamboo]

i disagree. I think that as karcher says, the 3rd line in 45 is about moving on without fault and that there is nothing favorable about this joint venture. which is why I suggested consultation or doing private work, i.e. taking the profession to another setting. also line 6 emphasizes that the querent is not at fault...just at the end of the game there

and 33 does not imply obstacles as much as it does the need for retreat...moving back from the situation

 

[willowfox]

i disagree. I think that as karcher says, the 3rd line in 45 is about moving on without fault and that there is nothing favorable about this joint venture. which is why I suggested consultation or doing private work, i.e. taking the profession to another setting. also line 6 emphasizes that the querent is not at fault...just at the end of the game there

and 33 does not imply obstacles as much as it does the need for retreat...moving back from the situation

For a start I disagree with Karcher's translation, many of his lines seem to be way off base and make no sense at all.

I got the impression that this person was working in a hospital, something like a nurse, if so, that would rule out consultation and private work due to lack of qualifications.

And lastly, the question itself raises its ugly head once again to remind you that the question was how she could "advance" her career and moving back from the situation does not address the issue. Moving back to where? Does she have another job to go to, sure does not look like it? Moving back to unemployment sounds more like it and that would not be of any benefit to her.

 

[movablue]

all your responses/comments are very useful to me; my feeling is i'm in a dead place for any potential advacement in my profession and still i'm afraid to make a radical change for the moment (the fear of a probably unemployment ); seeking for any kind of trainings doesn't help me to move forward in this place (as i said, everything seems to me blocked )

i supposed the i ching allways made a suggestion to find a better way to deal with a situation (not only limited the answer to a plain and simple description of the status quo...)

i'm finding in your responses encouragement to try to move on

 

[Trojina]

For a start I disagree with Karcher's translation, many of his lines seem to be way off base and make no sense at all.

I got the impression that this person was working in a hospital, something like a nurse, if so, that would rule out consultation and private work due to lack of qualifications.

And lastly, the question itself raises its ugly head once again to remind you that the question was how she could "advance" her career and moving back from the situation does not address the issue. Moving back to where? Does she have another job to go to, sure does not look like it? Moving back to unemployment sounds more like it and that would not be of any benefit to her.

The I Ching doesn't always answer the exact question put to it so theres no use trying to twist an answer around to fit the question. In ones own readings I think one always knows when ones asked one question and the Yi has answered another way about. I think thats what happened here . This isn't about advancing her career its confirming to her shes correct in her sense of disatisfaction, its not right for her. If it hadn't confirmed that she might still be thinking of how to make a go of where shes working. In the end you get the answer that you need regardless of the question.

Movablue sorry to talk about you as if you weren't here.

 

[willowfox]

May I ask who is trying to twist this answer around to fit something entirely different?

She does not have to be told that she is dissatisfied as she knows that already, read opening post. What the line is telling her is the cause for her dissatisfaction, she is an outsider, she has been shunned by her co workers and that annoys her but there is a solution in that very line, it tells her to be humble and approach the "leader" and things at the hospital will go better for her. It is all a matter of attitude, as she seems to be a very fiery person, easy to anger, with a lack of patience, she is probably acting arrogant and that gets her co workers backs up, so they avoid her wherever possible. Read her other post about her troubles with her parents, obviously it cannot be that all these other people are at fault, so the blame for her woes lies solely with her and her attitude. So, before you spout off see who is the real cause of the problem, and then be practical and give her advice on how she can rectify the situation. Because running away is not the answer, as this situation will repeat itself wherever she goes, she has to make the necessary change within herself.

Hex 33, in this case suggests running away from the problem that appears to be fairly simple thing to correct. You tell her to leave but where will she end up, unemployed. The answer to this simple question lies in lines 45.3,6. Hex 33 simply says don't try to move forward as you can't, correct your previous mistakes at this hospital first.

 

[Trojina]

Read her other post about her troubles with her parents, obviously it cannot be that all these other people are at fault, so the blame for her woes lies solely with her and her attitude. So, before you spout off see who is the real cause of the problem, and then be practical and give her advice on how she can rectify the situation. Because running away is not the answer, as this situation will repeat itself wherever she goes, she has to make the necessary change within herself.

Hex 33, in this case suggests running away from the problem that appears to be fairly simple thing to correct. You tell her to leave but where will she end up, unemployed. The answer to this simple question lies in lines 45.3,6. Hex 33 simply says don't try to move forward as you can't, correct your previous mistakes at this hospital first.

Its a simple difference of opinion I thought you were now mature enough to take as such rather than a personal attack. I was explaining my point of view without any aggression whatsoever intended or felt by me when writing the post.

If you see it as 'spouting off' then thats your problem. I see no fault in her attitude and you do but we can have these opposing views with out insulting one another you know.

I'm not out to solve this persons problems merely giving my take on the reading which is all we do here you know. She will make her own choice.

 

[rosada]

Well I'll take a crack at it, Movablue.
First, I always think it's helpful if people would actually post the words of the translation they are refering to, just so we know we're all singing off the same sheet.

I"m looking at what Wilhelm has to say about 45.3:

Gathering together amid sighs.
Nothing that would further.

So it seems you don't have a sense of being connected with your co-workers.

GOING IS WITHOUT BLAME.
Slight humiliation.

Now one could read this as meaning quitting the job, "going", would be without blame, but Wilhelm tells us this phrase means one ought to "choose the way of progress" (so you see, the I Ching is suggesting what you might do, not just mirroring back what you already know!) This means "resolutely allying with a man who stands nearer the center of the group, and can help him to gain admission to the closed circle." So, is there someone at the job, perhaps a supervisor, that you could form a stronger tie with and thereby you might feel more connected to the whole hospital?

45.6
Lamenting and sighing, floods of tears.
No blame.

This line also tells you exactly what you should do. 45.6 defines a sense of being an outsider and urges you to really let your feelings be known. Be sad and lament! This maybe what it takes to bring those who have excluded you to their senses.

Okay, now the tricky part. 45 seemed to be urging you to become more a member of the group and now 33 seems to say be reserved and keep others at a distance. hmm..well, 45 also cautions in the Image, "The superior man renews his weapons in order to meet the unforeseen." Taken all together, and considering that your question was "How can I advance?" and not "How can I be happier at my job?" I think the I Ching is advising you to strengthen your ties with your co-workers not because you are going to become best pals, but because this will improve your image, your chances for advancement. 33 Retreat then would mean that you don't need to become so close as to be buddies and in fact this may be indicating that by becoming more a part of the team you will advance and this could mean leaving where you are, being promoted.

I do think, however, that just the titles of the hexagrams give a clue: Group > Retreat. Career advancement looks like it will involve ultimately leaving this group.

 

[Trojina]

I do think, however, that just the titles of the hexagrams give a clue: Group > Retreat. Career advancement looks like it will involve ultimately leaving this group.

And thats all i ever said. I did not say 'you must leave your job immediately' but in answer to the question 'how can i advance my career' advancing your career will likley involve leaving this group. IOW advancement is not to be found where you are, so feelings are confirmed. This doesn't necessarily lead to immediate leaving of the job, but may do ultimately.

In my experience with 45.3 theres no advantage in trying to gain admission to a group, thats the message of the line. Thats just Wilhelms idea that its good to align with a central figure. I use Wilhelm alot. where would i be without Wilhelm but his line commentaries are often pretty/very misleading.

BTW I don't refer to any one translation, that would be incredibly limiting. I use them all, and mostly I don't need to refer to actual books cos its in my head, plus of course my own experience. I don't sit here using books when answering posts unless i need to refer to something specific. Who wants to sing from the same hymn sheet anyway

still ah well

 

[rosada]

Hey Trojan,
Yeah, I know that was pretty much what you were saying too. I just didn't want to post, "I agree with Trojan!" and give the appearance I was siding with you in opposition to Willowfox.
And I also agree with you that it is good to consult a variety of translations. When I say let's all be singing off the same sheet I mean let's all know what the writer is refering to. If a poster just says "I'm confused about line 3" but doesn't tell what translation they are using we don't know what might be confusing them as clearly as when they post the exact line as in, "I am confused by Wilhelm's take on line three which he translates as '.....' " Then we all know what the poster is talking about and indeed may want to respond by saying, "Check out WuWei's translation, he says line three says,'.....' which is quite a different spin. "

r.

 

[Trojina]

I get you

 

[charly]

... Because running away is not the answer, as this situation will repeat itself wherever she goes, she has to make the necessary change within herself.

... The answer to this simple question lies in lines 45.3,6. Hex 33 simply says don't try to move forward as you can't, correct your previous mistakes at this hospital first.

Willowfox:
I had post some literal translations in the thread of H.45

a 45.3 literal translation at:
http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?t=6229&page=5#41

萃如 cui4ru2 / collect / gather / united + ... - like / such as → GATHERING-LIKE
嗟如 jie1ru2 / sigh / sob + ... - like / such as → GRUMBLING-LIKE
无 wu2 / without / not / no → NOT
攸 you1 / distant / far / very → VERY
利 li4 / advantage / benefit / profit / profitable → PROFITABLE

往 wang3 / to go (in a direction) → TO PROCEED
无 wu2 / without / not / no → [IS] NO
咎 jiu4 / blame / mistake / error → WRONG [...BUT]

小 xiao3 / small / tiny / few / little →A LITTLE
吝 lin4 / stingy / → STINGY​

Oscilating between drive to union and tendency to grudge: not very profitable.
First solve your conflict, otherwise to proceed can be a little stingy, with others or whith yourself.


a 45.6 literal translation at:
http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?t=6229&page=7#62

Here I relate the line with Churchill's promise of «blood, toil and tears», something quite different from «flood of tears», TAKE IT AS A HARD WORK.

齎ji1: to present a gift or offering with both hands → TO PROMISE
咨zi1: sigh → SIGHS
涕ti4: tears / snivel → TEARS
洟yi2: mucus / tears → MUCUS / [MORE] TEARS

无wu2: no / not / without → NO
咎jiu4: blame / mistake / wrong → WRONG​

Yours,

Charly

 

[willowfox]

To Charly,

Do you agree or disagree with what I wrote as I am confused about what your translation is actually indicating.

 

[movablue]

your comments apparently are contradictory but they make sense to me all,thanks

 

[charly]

To Charly,

Do you agree or disagree with what I wrote as I am confused about what your translation is actually indicating.

Of course, I agreee.

Charly

 

[charly]

your comments apparently are contradictory but they make sense to me all,thanks

Maybe apparently, I think.

But the last word is yours.

Charly