46.3 - Hill city or empty city?

[cal val]

I've seen this line as interpreted both as empty city and hill city.

Because the location mentioned in the next line is Mt. Qi, hill city seems a more logical interpretation to me... a natural segue... hill to mountain. But, of course, things are not always as they seem, and they're rarely that simple. Therefore...

I'd love to hear from those of you who have pondered the history of this hexagram and lines and their progression.

Thanks for your help.

Love,

Val

 

[ewald]

None of the dictionaries that I consult mention "hill" for Xu1, actually. That includes Bradford's, Muller's (username: "guest", no password), and Chinese Etymology.

They all mention variations on "empty," though.


Ewald

 

[cal val]

Hi Ewald...

Richard Rutt translates it as hill city. And in his translation notes on 46.3, he says, "It is not certain that yi means a capital, since a hill setting is specified. Possibly the old Zhou centre is intended, in connection with Line 4."}

Love,

Val

 

[ewald]

Hi Val -
That's not the first translation by Rutt actually, that I can't seem to find in the dictionaries that I consult.

Both Bradford's and the Chinese Etymology mention "unoccupied" as a variation on "empty." That makes perfect sense to me. I can imagine some military advance into a city (or village, which can also be a meaning of Yi4) that's deserted. Advancing is easy, because there's no resistance. I can see such a state having a place in this hexagram.


Ewald

 

[hilary]

Wenlin says that the character for 'empty' is made up of tiger, phonetic, plus hill, signific. It also quotes Wieger saying that high uplands would be barren, hence the meaning 'empty'. (Which sounds to me like one of those post-hoc reasonings for character derivations.) Kunst also says 'climb to a town on a hill.'

Having said that, I find Steve M's take on the line more convincing. p199, Val, note 52.

 

[cal val]

Hi Ewald...

Well I'm still searching... I have more questions. I've looked at Brad's matrix as well. And the Harvard-Yenching Zhouyi on Steve Marshall's site... I understand that's the version that Richard Rutt translated. I'd really like to know why he chose to translate xu1 as hill rather than empty. I can't imagine it was an arbitrary decison. He had his reasons.

Does anyone know why? If not, does anyone know how I can get in touch with him so that I can ask him?

The thing is the tag for this hexagram is 'Climbing.' That makes hill city feasible, and, if this event transpired after the capital was moved to Feng, then it could very well be empty.

Love,

Val

 

[cal val]

Hi Ewald...
Thanks very much for the links! I think I found my answer actually on the first site you sent me to... it was right there under Etymology... Etymology: Remnant Compound, ?? The mountains ?? a place that is empty.

Etymology would be very important in translating this word in this context would it not? Since we're translating a document that's nearly three thousand years old?

Love,

Val

Sorry... I see the Chinese characters became symbols after I cut and paste.

 

[bradford_h]

Hi Val-
Etymology is not the science it pretends to be, and it has take many a scholar WAY off the deep end.
Have you checked LiSe's site?
There's a good chance both Kunst and Rutt were blindly following Gao Heng.
Have you downloaded Rick Kunst's handwritten notes yet? They're hard to read, and it's 100 mb of downloads, but they would probably tell.
b

 

[ewald]

Val - Sure, the character uses a picture of mountains to depict a place that's empty. But I'm not so sure that it's the mountains themselves that are essential here.

Don't you think it's telling that on that same webpage there is not any further reference to mountains or hills in the meanings of that character?


Ewald

 

[cal val]

Hilary...

Thanks so much for your input. I just now saw it... that's the problem with trying to do this at work. My posts sit on the taskbar for whole days sometimes, and then I miss a whole days wealth of posts... such as yours above.

I actually read Marshall's notes on it before I first posted and then again last night... and noticed the considerable difference between his speculation and Rutt's. And I brought his book with me to work today, as well as Rutt's (because I'm going to post on what I've learned about hex 10 over the weekend).

Love,

Val

 

[cal val]

Hi Ewald...

Thanks so much for suggesting Richard Kunst's notes on 46.3.

I just read them, and I see that he favors hill city as well, and he has copied the translations and comments of a number of scholars including Gao Heng.

I am very grateful that scholars like you and Brad and Hilary have taken the time to help me with my learning and shared your thoughts with me here. I've gained a lot of understanding.

Thank you all!

Love,

Val

 

[cal val]

Ooops.

I see that it was Brad that suggested Richard Kunst's notes on 46. I'm sorry Brad... and thank you!

Please see my post to Ewald above.

Love,

Val