47 and desperate despondency

[arabella]

Funny that someone has brought this thread back right now. I was just about to post a reading for 47 judgment. Some one near and dear to me, after a lifetime of borderline depression and major mood swings has gone into desperate despondency and I don't seem to be able to help in the least. It's almost unbearable to talk because it's an unending pessimistic tirade that makes her repeatedly ill. She manages to makes friends for a while, get out and about, then goes through long periods of destroying everything she built. Right now, she's in one of those, but of a depth and hopelessness that I've never seen before. She's a talented writer/poet, an interesting painter and involved in theatre, and although now aged 86 she still makes an impact with her work and does much good for a lot of people when she's in a better frame of mind/heart. Because this latest turn is having a bad effect on latent health problems I've been especially worried -- and she's many thousand miles away.

I asked the Yi what will be a solution for her in the shorter term and got Hex 47 unchanging. Does this mean what it seems to mean?

 

[Trojina]

Funny that someone has brought this thread back right now. I was just about to post a reading for 47 judgment. Some one near and dear to me, after a lifetime of borderline depression and major mood swings has gone into desperate despondency and I don't seem to be able to help in the least. It's almost unbearable to talk because it's an unending pessimistic tirade that makes her repeatedly ill. She manages to makes friends for a while, get out and about, then goes through long periods of destroying everything she built. Right now, she's in one of those, but of a depth and hopelessness that I've never seen before. She's a talented writer/poet, an interesting painter and involved in theatre, and although now aged 86 she still makes an impact with her work and does much good for a lot of people when she's in a better frame of mind/heart. Because this latest turn is having a bad effect on latent health problems I've been especially worried -- and she's many thousand miles away.

I asked the Yi what will be a solution for her in the shorter term and got Hex 47 unchanging. Does this mean what it seems to mean?

I don't know what you think it 'seems to mean'. By no means does hex 47 always indicate
death if thats what you mean ?...However it would seem for your friend there is not much you can do to help her right now, words don't help....Bear in mind 47 here could be showing you you can't do much...rather than telling you her solution.

maybe we should start a new 47 thread ? Guess I link this one to Martin. Then again it is interesting it has resurfaced...

 

[arabella]

Trojan, yes I am getting the idea that ultimate exhaustion, Hex 47, is the end of the line, based on what I'm reading here in relation to health and well-being in particular. Not that it would surprise me for somebody aged 86, but as her problems span decades and her health problems are largely self-imposed based on her emotional state, I was hoping the Yi might suggest something new I could try. The person in question is an elderly relative who has been more or less deserted by her family because they just can't tolerate the "abuse" of the way she behaves, well really speaks to other people. I've always had a sympathy for her because it's obvious from her creative work she has abilities that will never make the impact they could and she is just plain frustrated, but also I guess suffering from a neurosis that gets worse as she ages. Most of the time I call and just let her vent. There's little point in answering what she says, there's no reasoning with her anymore. The other day she vented for over two hours, which is getting a bit beyond the pale, but I'm not sure what I can do.

Maybe moderators could move this to a new thread?

 

[Trojina]

Trojan, yes I am getting the idea that ultimate exhaustion, Hex 47, is the end of the line, based on what I'm reading here in relation to health and well-being in particular. Not that it would surprise me for somebody aged 86, but as her problems span decades and her health problems are largely self-imposed based on her emotional state, I was hoping the Yi might suggest something new I could try. The person in question is an elderly relative who has been more or less deserted by her family because they just can't tolerate the "abuse" of the way she behaves, well really speaks to other people. I've always had a sympathy for her because it's obvious from her creative work she has abilities that will never make the impact they could and she is just plain frustrated, but also I guess suffering from a neurosis that gets worse as she ages. Most of the time I call and just let her vent. There's little point in answering what she says, there's no reasoning with her anymore. The other day she vented for over two hours, which is getting a bit beyond the pale, but I'm not sure what I can do.

Maybe moderators could move this to a new thread?

I would feel alot happier discussing your 47 experience in a new thread yes....but thats just me

 

[bradford]

Nietzsche may have summed up 47 best with:
"When we are tired, we are attacked by ideas we conquered long ago."

Of course now there are meds for that, too. One assumes she is already aware of this and is either ignoring them or they aren't working properly. If she wants or needs to suffer and isn't in denial about it there may nothing you can do until it works itself out or she ends it.

But I think the intent of the texts in 47, as gloomy and spooky as they are, is not to predict doom but to help lighten and cheer the reader up by parodying the roundabout nature of depression and its ultimate unnecessariness when what one really needs is rest, or calmness, or peace, or getting back to original nature.

 

[ginnie]

there's no reasoning with her anymore.

It's so difficult. She may not be able to follow any suggestions. One begins to feel desperate oneself, trying to be of some assistance ...Words alone cannot help. I can only suggest the Bach Flower Remedies called Gorse and Sweet Chestnut. Also, Cherry Plum. I'm not a practitioner, just someone who has used several remedies myself ...

If there's someone who takes care of her, maybe that person could administer a remedy such as this?

 

[pocossin]

What will be a solution for her in the shorter term?
47

☱
☵


☵ suggests intrusion, ☱ friendship. You say she does much good for a lot of people. Why not contact some of them, explain the situation, and ask them to look in on her? Then too, things might not be so bad ☵ as they appear across the pond ☱.

 

[willowfox]

I asked the Yi what will be a solution for her in the shorter term and got Hex 47 unchanging.

There's no solution unless she herself is willing to acknowledge her problem and allow a doctor to prescribe whatever is necessary.

Therefore she will simply continue as she is, subject to the failings of her own mind, she is obviously not strong enough to overcome her illness, and if she doesn't or won't accept help, then she will remain in her up and down cycle.

 

[arabella]

Each of these answers/suggestions has its own merits in the situation and I've taken them all on board. This person is indeed resistent to any treatment or accepting the idea that what she suffers from is indeed depression. She sees this as a failure to give a clinical name to her emotion -- being from the "old school" where any mental weakness is a disgrace. On another thread here Hilary just brought up the practice of EFT which I've done and I realised I haven't done a treatment on her for a long time. She won't likely participate by I'll try a remote, surrogate session and see if that transmits to her successfully. Funny enough, EFT can be effective even at a distance, even if the person needing help isn't directly involved. Distance makes no difference whatever. And that's something I should have thought of sooner too. Thanks all for your help, suggestions and moral support.

 

[charly]

... I was hoping the Yi might suggest something new I could try...

Arabella:

Maybe 困 KUN is not so bad as it seems at first sight (1). The standard image of the character is that of a tree surrounded by an enclosure, like a bonsai, then OPPRESSION, but also might be a TREE IN A GARDEN. It can mean TROUBLE but also JOY.

All the living beings like the tree, like us, are prisoners of their contexts, but also, while still alive, can enjoy in their own SECRET GARDENS.

Maybe she needs to enjoy in her own secret garden. You might grant the opportunity of doing it, not being cought in a trap of thorns.

Cut the gordian knot, don't discuss with her, put her to work. It can be at distance, by phone, by letter, by mail, don't expose yourself.

Maybe our mind is the last garden we retain, some people cannot enjoy it without some help.

I don't know if she will improve or not, the Changes speaks to you, there is something that you can try. And trying you will be at peace with your conscience. Always is good to have friends like you.

All the best,

Charly
___________________________
(1) I'm based in this reading:

h.47 chinese text / usual meanings / Wilhelm-Baynes:

困 kun4: difficult / hard / tired / fatigued // to trouble / to worry / to harass / to be stranded / to be hard pressed / to trapp / to surround / OPPRESSION
亨heng1: feast / celebration / sacrifice / prosperous / SUCCESS
。
貞zhen1: omen / divination // chaste / PERSEVERANCE
大da4: big / great / wide / oldest / eldest / [THE GREAT]
人 ren2: man / person / people / MAN
吉 ji2: fortunate / lucky / [BRINGS ABOUT] GOOD FORTUNE
。
无 wu2 : without / not / no / avoid / NO
咎 jiu4 : blame / to blame / wrong / mistake / BLAME
。
有 you3: to have / there is / there are / [WHEN ONE] HAS
言 yan2: to speak / to say / talk / word / [SOMETHING] TO SAY
不 bu4: not / no / [IT IS] NOT
信 xin4: letter / true / to believe / BELIEVED
。​

困 KUN CELEBRATION
Seclusion feast.
Lonely celebration.


OMEN ELDER PEOPLE LUCKY
A lucky omen for elder people.
You can do something.

NO WRONG
Nothing bad,
with the condition of not become damaged yourself.


THERE ARE WORDS NOT BELIEVE
There will be unbelievable words.
Don't believe all the words you ear
No matters if your speech results unbelievable.

​

Ch.

 

[arabella]

Charly, thank you. This is a marvelous perspective and I love the positive nature you ascribe to Hex 47, which is quite unique and far more expansive than the reading I tend to give this Hex.

It seems quite sad to be able to do so little for someone elderly, and worrying besides. As you say though, this person has her mind, her thoughts, places she inhabits, that no one really understands anyway. It is her choice to enjoy this Secret Garden -- or not. And, as she says herself, in many ways she is so lucky. I have a dear friend, a psychologist, who has warned me from time to time not to get devoured by this situation, not to let it tinge all of life no matter how sympathetic it makes me feel. Because, as several have mentioned here, this person is only a victim if she chooses that path. Sometimes she chooses it for effect, sometimes from habit, sometimes because she runs out of imagination. But it is her choice. The other caution the psychologist gave is that, if she wants to change her circumstances, be sure she makes that choice, don't just pick her up and whisk her out of her home, because that is preempting her power and will become a source of arument later on that WILL be my responsibility if I do that. He has noted that, at her age, she may say a lot of things that are habitual, that come out of her mouth without registering in her mind. He suggests just listening, saying little or nothing, which is what I've been trying lately. [Actually she leaves little air space for a reply anyway.]

It's a lot to follow when you are worried and wish it could all be solved. But the thought of a Secret Garden is even one I can talk to her about. And, as an artist and creative person, she may well appreciate that as a strength to her position.

 

[ginnie]

Getting Back

Just getting back and wondering how it went with your elderly friend, Arabella?

Seems to me that part of getting older is becoming more and more home bound and having limited involvements with the outside world. This affords opportunities for developments in the inner life and opportunities to tackle again those issues we already thought we had wrestled to the ground -- as Bradford indicated in his post. Seclusion isn't the worst thing.

 

[arabella]

Thanks Ginnie. Not a lot has changed and we've tried various approaches to her despondency. The one that seems to help most is prayer, which seems to let her relax and give her problems to somebody else. So I call her up and say prayers for her on the telephone and she just listens and always seems a bit relieved when we hang up. She otherwise runs the same sad "tapes" of conversation over and over again. I've spoken to a psychologist friend who says it's also senility that she's experiencing and not a lot is going to alter the mental tracks that have run in the background for years of resentment and anger. When I think of her past and her upbringing I don't think there's any surprise that life has been difficult and she sees less hope than some that all will turn out well. She believes that her problem is living alone and loneliness but I think she'd be unhappy trying to conform to anybody else's lifestyle and that is best left as it is now, unless she has some serious setbacks in her health and intervention is absolutely necessary. I appreciate your asking Ginnie. Thanks again.

 

[patro]

hi,
I read this post.... and since a solution wasn't find.... I try to participate by sharing my though about hex 47.

47 unchanging.... obviously one of it's advice regarding your question was... that there is no short time solution for the problem.

I'm here... and I'm reading the advice of 47 when unchanging in my book... and I must admit... what the sign say reflect 100% what you Arabella wrote in your last post.

comment for 47 unchanging:
....that your friend, with regard to your question is to exhaustion under pressure.
continuing distress leads to growing discouragement.
nothing from what you say, causes something and you can only do little to change dramatically the situation. you can only help them maintain inner strength to endure.

I think it's now time for a new question.
:bows: