47. K'un / Oppression (Exhaustion)

[rosada]

THE JUDGEMENT

OPPRESSION. Success. Perseverance.
The great man brings about good fortune.
No blame.
When one has something to say,
It is not believed.

Times of adversity are the reverse of times of success, but they can lead to success if they befall the right man. When a strong man meets with adversity, he remains cheeful despite all danger, and this cheerfulness is the source of later successes; it is that stability which is stronger than fate. He who lets his spirit be broken by exhaustion certainly has no success. But if adversity only bends a man, it creates in him a power to react that is bound in time to manifest itself. No inferior man is capable of this. Only the great man brings about good fortune and remains blameless. It is true that for the time being outward influence is denied him, because his words have no effect. Therefore in times of adversity it is important to be strong within and sparing of words.

 

[rosada]

Commentary on the Decision

OPPRESSION. The firm is hemmed in. Danger and joyousness. The superior man alone is capable of being oppressed without losing the power to succeed. "Perseverance. The great man brings about good fortune," because he is firm and central.
"When one has something to say, it is not believed." He who considers the mouth important falls into perplexity.

The name of the hexagram is explained in its structure, because in various ways the firm lines are hemmed in between dark ones. Success is achieved in the name of OPPRESSION by maintaining cheerfulness (upper trigram Tui) in face of danger (lower trigram K'an). The firm and central lines that in each case indicate the great man are the rulers of the hexagram in the second and fifth place. The trigram Tui also suggests speech. But one gets no hearing; the trigram K'an means earache, hence disinclination to listen.
-Wilhelm.

 

[meng]

still learning how to work with intuition . .

:bows: me too

First, let me supplement what I said above with a W/B comment from hex. 1.

"The beginning of all things lies still in the beyond in the form of ideas that have yet to become real. But the Creative furthermore has power to lend form to these archetypes of ideas."

Naturally-intuitive-people can lack grounding capability. They can release information (often accurate!), but can not really say where the answer came from, unless they back track to put pieces of the puzzle together in a cognitive way. Naturally-intuitive-people have to, in most cases, work backward, if their reasoning is called into question. If you find yourself doing this, you're naturally intuitive.

As I see it, intuition is the cognitive function of integrating classical and quantum mechanics, to form an answer capable of satisfying a question. Theoretically, no answer has ever existed until a question is asked. All answers are true, and all are equally false. Since the answer to the question exists on both levels (as potential and "real"), intuition is the alchemist (magician/scientist/priest) which refines an applicable message.

 

[meng]

One other thought on 'answer to a question', before I get run over by Rosada's Wilhelm locomotive.

The question doesn't need to be formed into words before an answer is given. It doesn't even need to be formed into a question at all, it only needs to exist as a potential, such as a mood or train of subconscious thought.

 

[martin]

Naturally-intuitive-people can lack grounding capability. They can release information (often accurate!), but can not really say where the answer came from, unless they back track to put pieces of the puzzle together in a cognitive way. Naturally-intuitive-people have to, in most cases, work backward, if their reasoning is called into question. If you find yourself doing this, you're naturally intuitive.

Yes, I recognize that. Often I'm convinced of something but I have no rational arguments whatsoever. When people ask for arguments (they often do in our culture) I have to construct them and it feels artificial, as if I make them up.

One problem with intuition is that it can be confused with prejudices and deeply held beliefs. For intuitive types, awareness of their beliefs, 'know thyself' in this respect, is very important. That enables them to seperate the dross (beliefs, prejudices) from the gold (real intuitive knowing).

Umm, I don't know why I wrote that of course.

 

[rosada]

Hey Meng,
My apologies for posting THE JUDGEMENT while this current chat was alive and going strong. I didn't mean to be Oppressive! Your words DO have effect!
Rosada

 

[Sparhawk]

I found a picture of Rosada readying the locomotive. She's the one in red.

 

[meng]

Yes, I recognize that. Often I'm convinced of something but I have no rational arguments whatsoever. When people ask for arguments (they often do in our culture) I have to construct them and it feels artificial, as if I make them up.

One problem with intuition is that it can be confused with prejudices and deeply held beliefs. For intuitive types, awareness of their beliefs, 'know thyself' in this respect, is very important. That enables them to seperate the dross (beliefs, prejudices) from the gold (real intuitive knowing).

Yo!

Previously held beliefs and prejudices are why the alchemist must throw himself into the fire along with the other elements he's working with. No matter how gallant and true that may be, it can still land him/her in that gloomy valley, until he/she recognizes their participation in victim of circumstance role, and decides to not so willingly suffer, and drink up on living water. There's always separating wheat from chaff, and, imo, if a diviner neglects this discrimination process, their miss factor will outweigh their hit ratio. Have to be willing to test your own intuition against relative reality, and make whatever adjustments are necessary, to be useful. Abstract ideas alone won't work for everyone.

 

[Trojina]

Trojan!! I get the same feeling out numerous times lately, good to know I'm not the only one!

as far as the Cohen songs take a look at:
"Teachers" (just posting those that make sense cause the song is rather long)

Morning came and then came noon,
dinner time a scalpel blade
lay beside my silver spoon.

One morning I woke up alone,
the hospital and the nurses gone.
Have I carved enough my Lord?
Child, you are a bone. (these remind me of Biting through and Skining)

I ate and ate and ate,
no I did not miss a plate, well
How much do these suppers cost?
We'll take it out in hate. (Nourishment)

"Stories of the Street"
With one hand on the hexagram and one hand on the girl
I balance on a wishing well that all men call the world.
We are so small between the stars, so large against the sky,
and lost among the subway crowds I try to catch your eye. (I can almst think of different hexs for each line)

"Take this waltz"
This waltz, this waltz, this waltz, this waltz
With its very own breath of brandy and death
Dragging its tail in the sea (After Completion)

. . but I'm pretty sure that there are other examples, these are just from some favourite ones . . of course there's always a chance that this is only my impression, but at some points i find the allusions too clear to be my wild imagination


rodaki

Good grief ! Well thanks for that. These songs and words were embedded firmly in my mind as a young child while lying sick in bed listening to elder siblings music. I used to wonder what they meant, I knew them all by heart, but i never ever connected them with the Yi, not even now, and I still listen to Cohen (it cheers me up )

A 47 mood served Cohen well lol. Anyhow I don't see these examples connecting to the Yi, (though if Cohen says so I guess he should know.) I thought 'teachers' was sort of very much connected to his Jewish background. Oh but of course if thats what you see in them I'm intrigued hmmm I will listen in a new light. I love 'Sisters of Mercy' always seemed really mystical to me. I could connect that song with a sense of Yi somehow, with 47 maybe ?

 

[rodaki]

one more quickie before the evening shift:

"Depressed" brings a whole wagon full of devils with it./QUOTE]
Agree Meng, also don't like the term, I usually see the darker periods as 'hibernating' ones

on the commentary

"When one has something to say, it is not believed." He who considers the mouth important falls into perplexity.

that sounds a lot like intuitive speech

The name of the hexagram is explained in its structure, because in various ways the firm lines are hemmed in between dark ones. Success is achieved in the name of OPPRESSION by maintaining cheerfulness (upper trigram Tui) in face of danger (lower trigram K'an)

Recently been looking into 'the language of birds' (thought to be the divine language, or language of angels, also 'glossolalia') and whistled languages, which are a 'translation' of some languages in whistling sounds, kind of like whistled mors, which have been used in times of political oppression as a means for communication (you can listen to some samples here http://www.lemondesiffle.free.fr/presentation_eng/languessifflees.htm)

The trigram Tui also suggests speech. But one gets no hearing; the trigram K'an means earache, hence disinclination to listen.

and the I ching said: 'talk yourself dead darlin, I'm off for a walk'

 

[rodaki]

hey Trojan, just crossed posts

well, don't let me put words into Leonard's mouth, this is just my blabbering!

(will look into Sisters of Mercy, haven't paid that much attention to the lyrics)

 

[rosada]

Ah yes, there I am, you never know when you're going to run into a meeting of the Red Hat Society.

Notice how there are several different conversations going on here? Maybe this is a clue about Oppression. Perhaps the message here is to Restrict oneself, to wait one's turn.

Maybe with the awareness brought forward with 45. Gathering Together one now is conscious of others and must include them in one's plans. Thus while in more innocent times one could just take off down the highway whenever one felt like it, now we're aware there maybe traffic and waits and that we need to know how to be patient and cheerful until the traffic clears.

 

[philish]

May I jump in here with a personal 47 reading--fresh and hot, just out from the Yi today?

I had asked about what to expect if I send several friends an update about a current legal situation and ask for their prayers--and the Yi answered with a 47 unchanging.

Would it be too far-fetched to assume that, being unable to offer material aid (being hemmed in) they can only offer prayer? Go within? Seek spirit?

I've really wrestled with this hex because of the "words are not believed" aspect, but your comments about intuition seem to fit now. This reminds me of the passage from Corinthians in the Bible where Paul says,

7But we have this treasure in jars of clay to show that this all-surpassing power is from God and not from us. 8We are hard pressed on every side, but not crushed; perplexed, but not in despair; 9persecuted, but not abandoned; struck down, but not destroyed.​

Very much along the lines of Beckett, I believe.

 

[Trojina]

Ah yes, there I am, you never know when you're going to run into a meeting of the Red Hat Society.

Notice how there are several different conversations going on here? Maybe this is a clue about Oppression. Perhaps the message here is to Restrict oneself, to wait one's turn.

Maybe with the awareness brought forward with 45. Gathering Together one now is conscious of others and must include them in one's plans. Thus while in more innocent times one could just take off down the highway whenever one felt like it, now we're aware there maybe traffic and waits and that we need to know how to be patient and cheerful until the traffic clears.

No I don't think so, I think thats your opinion not a message from the universe lol This threads much livelier than the last few memorising threads have been. Its good to have several conversations going isn't it ? Stops the lake from drying up or something.
Personally I'm enjoying this thread, its got a bit of life.

 

[rosada]

Hmm..not sure I made my self clear. Or maybe I did, but I'll restate the thought anyway.
I'm thinking that while all these different lively conversations are going on, anyone wanting to get their individual point across, or anyone wanting to keep the conversation going on a straight path, would have to restrain or suppress themselves until the time is right, otherwise they would find their talk falling on deaf ears. The guidance then for times of Oppression would be to relax and let other people have their say, but to not forget one's own purpose so one can continue when it comes around to be their turn again.
I think I Ching is saying times that feel like Oppression are really just times when one is trying to stay in control - continuing to Push on and on as in 46.6 - but rather than trying to control at this point, it is time to relinquish control and let others have the floor. So I'm saying I see 47 as a time when one is learning how to relax and listen to other's, or relax and just let time pass. We are heading towards 48. The Well, the major group creation, so I'm thinking it would make sense at this hexagram that we are getting a clearer sense of not being able to continue creating by oneself, writer's block say, and then by not worrying about it, just letting others say what they have to say, one understands the group mind better and is able to then see what is being created from a broader perspective. I think it's significant that 58. Joyous Communication is symbolized by one lake pouring water one to another, as if to say joyous communication is where both parties speak and both listen. 47. Oppression is a lake that is drained. Someone is talking but they really have nothing to say. Or someone is talking but the supposed listener isn't taking it in. Or as in some of the political discussions we've been hearing lately, someone is talking but is not interested in hearing what the opposite point of view might be.
Fortunately here, although we may be waiting for someone to respond to our particular post, we are able to enjoy the other discussions, so we're learning the lesson of 47 the easy way!

 

[meng]

One thing I think is safe to say: 47 needs to relax.

 

[meng]

May I jump in here with a personal 47 reading--fresh and hot, just out from the Yi today?

I had asked about what to expect if I send several friends an update about a current legal situation and ask for their prayers--and the Yi answered with a 47 unchanging.

Would it be too far-fetched to assume that, being unable to offer material aid (being hemmed in) they can only offer prayer? Go within? Seek spirit?

I've really wrestled with this hex because of the "words are not believed" aspect, but your comments about intuition seem to fit now. This reminds me of the passage from Corinthians in the Bible where Paul says,

7But we have this treasure in jars of clay to show that this all-surpassing power is from God and not from us. 8We are hard pressed on every side, but not crushed; perplexed, but not in despair; 9persecuted, but not abandoned; struck down, but not destroyed.​

Very much along the lines of Beckett, I believe.

I don't think your idea is far fetched. However, I'm thinking that 47 may have more to do with your feeling the need for support, as though you want to break free of the enclosure. And if you don't receive the outside support or affirmation you are seeking, that may further feel as though you are not being understood or believed.

Jar of clay, now that distinctly makes me think of 48, since it is the jar of clay which is used to reach the water and raise it out to drink. So, wouldn't it be nice if your friends are jars of clay? but in case they are not (not believing), it's good to know you have your own well to draw from.

 

[philish]

Ah, yes. My own well! A good segue...

Actually, the jars of clay mentioned here are usually interpreted as representing humanity as humble, fragile vessels--unlikely containers for divinity.

In the context of my circumstance, I think this is reminding me that though I may seek support from others, they (like me) are also pressed, oppressed, and challenged by the circumstances of their lives. Best not to depend on outward appearances (whether they respond as I'd like) and better to seek inner resources--like The Well.

 

[bamboo]

Meng's picture way up in this thread is beautiful and reminds me of LiSe's words:

".... confined
A noble one incurs fate on fulfilling his aspiration​

Remember your garden! Life can be big and interesting or full of duties, but happiness dwells in a small and limited place, a secret garden. There the tree of life is growing. Never stay out of there too long.
The tree of life grows only in the magic circle, the symbol of one-ness, and that is your garden. It is the only place where it can grow. The power of life comes from that tree.
Prisons exist too, but they are not inside, they are outside the garden. You can be a prisoner of opinions, fears, guilt or duties. As soon as you enter the gate of your garden, you are no prisoner anymore, all is locked out.​

Sometimes for me, it takes the awful feeling of being enclosed to impel me to go out into 'the garden', out that doorway. At the time, it doesnt feel like it will do any good at all, but there's nothing else to do, hopes have run dry. may as well relax. and suprisingly there is life there, after all. "When the world wearies...there is the garden."

 

[rodaki]

hi there to all!

I really love the text from Corinthians!

been thinking on the 'locomotive', 'train', 'train of thoughts', here we are:
when trains go by they make much noise, and you cannot hear what people are saying . .
noise also brings to mind hex 23, the rumbling noise of structures collapsing, and lack of water, corrosion can bring such collapse, but 47 does not look like that much . .
So 47 is like saying 'there is no need to tear down what you have even if it feels it is not working, try to relax even if it doesn't feel comfortable, resources are on your way . .
Maybe Philish you will feel like your friends are not paying attention to you, but in fact they will be thinking of you deep down?

In terms of 46, 47, 48, hex 47 could be when in ascending the seed reaches a place where there used to be water but now it is left empty and you have to use your strength wisely to cross it and go on to reach the actual reserve . . not a time of speedy progress but still there, like those last drops that are gradually formed in a closed tap?

cheers!

rodaki

 

[heylise]

Been writing down my thoughts on 47. Looked at the trigrams.

Hexagram 47, Kun, has trigram water inside. Water is the source of life, it has to do with cleansing, and with regeneration. It is the undefined, containing all that is potential and unshaped.
Kun has trigram lake to the outside. Lake is limited, it has to do with human exchange. It does need the water or it gets dry. But as space for water it is way too small, it can only contain a tiny amount of all the waters in universe – or of the waters of the soul. Hence the frustration of 47. It dreams of so much, it can do so little.

Water dwells in the heart and is like a well or spring. So it has a lot to do with feelings, as a symbol it deals with spiritual life, intuition, fears, depth, the moon. Feelings even wax and wane like the moon. They cannot deal very well with borders, so when they have to, it feels confined, oppressed and eventually they get exhausted from trying in vain to express themselves. “Words are not believed/trusted”.

Hex.47 is not only about the one who tries to express him/herself. It is just as well about hearing or seeing others. Very seldom anyone listens really to the other’s heart. One hears words, and does not connect them with their background, the heart, they stay words and not more than that. So most of their meaning gets lost, or is discarded or contended. Causing 47 to be felt on both sides, a lose-lose exchange.

The challenge of 47 is to find the way out of its frustration. Either by choosing the smaller way: adapting and finding safety in the lake, together with one’s fellow living creatures, without much depth, or by breaking through the borders: “A noble one incurs fate on fulfilling his aspiration”.

Hex.47 and hex.48 form a pair, they are complementary in ‘shape’. In 47 there is difficulty in expressing one’s spirit, in 48 it flows freely - if one can reach it.
Hex.47 is the opposite of 22, they are complementary in ‘meaning’. Inner water (wisdom) versus inner fire (energy), outer lake (social) versus outer mountain (individual). The serious seeker with his heavy mind and the blossoming young girl which flows over with life. If they can combine his wisdom and her zest for life, they’d make a great couple.

LiSe

 

[maremaria]

Thanks for sharing those thoughts LiSe.
Reading them was like opening a treasure box.

 

[rosada]

I received 47. once when I asked the I Ching to comment on my following my dentist's advice to have the Mercury in my teeth replaced as he felt the Mercury was leaking into my blood stream. I had gone ahead and had the procedure, but I still wasn't convinced it was necessary. The I Ching reassured me...

47.

The great man brings about good fortune {the dentist brought me healing.}
No blame. {He did nothing blame worthy.}
When one has something to say,
It is not believed. {Exactly!}

Now, looking at this hexagram again today I also can see the trigrams of the lake with the water draining out of it as also being confirmation that there was Mercury draining out of the tooth and into my system.
Yikes!

 

[rosada]

I note there was a terrible train wreck in Southern California a couple of days ago. Seems the engineer ran a red stop sign. Interesting we have had thoughts like Locomotive, slowing down, stopping and red here at Oppression.

 

[meng]

Rosada, the dentist story is interesting.

 

[meng]

A lake going seasonally dry (hopefully not entirely) has the same effect as fire burning down old forest, it renews it, so long as the drought or fire isn't sustained for too long. So some drought serves to purge, renew and rest, but indulging in 47 is a dangerous, slippery slope down into actual depression. That gets desperate and very hard to climb back out of. Reminds me of "cement shoes", used by the mob. Fuhgettaboudit.

 

[rosada]

Thank you LiSe, and Thank you, Bamboo, for the garden suggestion. Works for me.

Thanks Meng, for the encouraging word. Also your 47. slippery slope idea reminds me of the line,
"When ever you stop to think, don't forget to start again."

 

[frank_r]

The dying tree and the lake

 

[rosada]

THE IMAGE

There is no water in the lake.
The image of EXHAUSTION.
Thus the superior man stakes his life
On following his will.

When the water has flowed out below, the lake must dry up and become exhausted. That is fate. This symbolizes an adverse fate in human life. In such times there is nothing a man can do but acquiesce in his fate and remain true to himself. This concerns the deepest stratum of his being, for this alone is superior to all external fate.

The image derives from the relative positions of the two primary trigrams: water is under the lake, therefore drained off. The trigrams individually yield advice for conduct in the time of EXHAUSTION: K'an, abyss, danger, indicates staking one's life; Tui, joyousness, indicates following one's own will.
-Wilhelm

 

[frank_r]

Was reading the post about the Bao Ti trigrams. The containing and contained trigram. In 47 there is wind contained by water and fire contained by water.

In the case of wind contained by Water, there is a proces that is hard to grasp what is controlled by history. Destiny is controlled by history.
In the case of fire contained by water then the energy is controled and is not getting enough room to come to the surface.

So in 47 the controling force is always water. It is controling the energy and our destiny/faith, that's the reason you have to go deep in your selve where you can find both energy and destiny.