47. K'un / Oppression (Exhaustion)

[rosada]

"He comes very quietly": his will is directed downward. Though the place is not appropriate, he nevertheless has companions.

K'an is carriage. Tui metal. This line is in the minister's place and therefore has the task of relieving the oppression. The minister allows himself to be influenced by the honor of having received a golden carriage at the hands of the prince, so that he does not fulfill his task as quickly as he should. This is humiliating; yet in the end all goes well. The line is not in its proper place (the place is yielding, the line is firm), but it is in the relationship of correspondence to the six at the beginning, toward which its will is directed, and therefore it has a companion that induces it to act.
-Wilhelm

 

[rosada]

Charly,
Thank you for these thoughts on 47 as describing the prison. I wonder if 47.4 as the position of the minister could also be thought of as one's lawyer? To the man in prison waiting it would seem the lawyer is being paid a fortune, a golden carriage, and that he sure takes his own sweet time coming to the rescue, but that ultimately he does arrive.

 

[charly]

Charly,
Thank you for these thoughts on 47 as describing the prison. I wonder if 47.4 as the position of the minister could also be thought of as one's lawyer? To the man in prison waiting it would seem the lawyer is being paid a fortune, a golden carriage, and that he sure takes his own sweet time coming to the rescue, but that ultimately he does arrive.

Hi, Ros:

To be in jail is part of the human nature. All we are in jail.

about 47.4, please, take a look at the chinese text,
chinese character, pinyin, usual meanings, W/B:

來 lai2: to come / [HE] COMES
徐 xu2: slow / gentle / VERY
徐 xu2: slow / gentle / QUIETLY

困 kun4: distress / affliction / to be hard pressed / OPPRESSED (1)
于 yu2: at / to / IN
金 jin1: metal / bronze / golden / [A] GOLDEN
車 che1: car / a vehicle // to shape with a lathe / CARRIAGE (2)

吝 lin4: stingy / HUMILIATION [BUT]

有 you3: to have / there is / there are / IS REACHING [?]
終 zhong1: end / finish / [THE] END

First of all, I believe that KUN is not about exhaution, if not, why between brackets?


A literal translation sould be:

COMING SLOW, SLOW
Gentle arriving, without hurry

CONSTRAINED AT THE GOLDEN CARRIAGE
limiting conspicuous mouvements

STINGY [BUT] FINITE
maybe not generous, but it will have an end. (3)

​

Rings and conspicuous vehicles are much related to marige in chinese customs, maybe the prison is the prison of mariage, but not about lawyers or intermediaries, not about social exhibition, but about intimity.

Be gentle, don't hurry, t h e - m o m e n t - i s - f u c k i n g - s h o r t.

Don't you think so?

Charly

___________________________
(1)困, the enclosed tree, a tree in a walled space or also a tree in a ring, maybe in a magic ring. To be sourrounded, to be hard pressed...

困... difficult / hard / poor / tired / weary / fatigued / to trouble / to worry / to harass / to be stranded / to be hard pressed...
Seal characters:

from: http://www.chineseetymology.org/Cha...aspx?characterInput=困&submitButton1=Etymology

(2) The golden vehicle, a high class vehicle, a conspicouous one. Here the golden vehicle is in the place of the tree in the KUN character, being constrained, hard pressed.

(3) Or maybe «stingy finite», miserly finite, no lating too much.

 

[rodaki]

also some thanks from here Charly for throwing light this way!
I must make some of the interpretations here into a card and keep reading it every time a reading doesn't make sense the first 2 days!!

rodaki

 

[charly]

also some thanks from here Charly for throwing light this way!
I must make some of the interpretations here into a card and keep reading it every time a reading doesn't make sense the first 2 days!!

rodaki

rodaki:

Most people believe than the infamous «Red Knee Bands» is an official of the ruler, maybe an executioner that uses to cutt-off noses and feet, but what about if another kind of executioner?

Maybe an executioner related to the «the journey of the sacred flame»?

Please, see this page an look for the «Red Knee Bands», a little help, she is at the left of the first picture.

http://www.chinese-tools.com/china/sexy/2008-05-01-fhm.html

Thus, «Red Knee Bands» could be a woman. «Red Knees» is also a kind of spider. What about a «Spider-Woman»?

«Red Knees» also could be a bird...!

Too much possibilities.

(to be continued)

Yours,

Charly

 

[rodaki]

dear Charly,
I love it!

let me take it one step forth . .


Besides the fact that the 'sacred flame' originates in Olympia and very often in ancient greek temples the priests were women (also the ceremony of lighting the flame is performed by women), the journey of the 'sacred flame' reminds me of the 'sacred light' of orthodox Easter.
It is said that every Friday before Easter, all churches should extinguish all candles and at the time of Christs's resurrection, a candle miraculously lights up in the altar of the church in Jerusalem. Then the light of this candle, the 'sacred light' travels all around the world and is distributed by orthodox churches to the people that come to collect it. People carry the light in their houses and keep it burning in a small altar they keep in a corner of the house. I know for sure that in Greece the custom of keeping the light throughout the year is still retained and it is usually a woman of the household that tends to it every morning . . my grandmother did it everyday, and now my mother does. It is thought of as a blessing to the well-being of the house and the people in it . .

Still in carrying the light form the church to the house one has to be very careful, not go too fast but not too slow either because it is very easy for the slightest wind to put it out. Often the light is put out during the way and that's why more than one have their candles lit. And even when it happens that all of them are put out then one asks from neighbors returning too at their homes to take the light from them . .

sounds very much like . .

originally posted by Rosada

"He comes very quietly": his will is directed downward. Though the place is not appropriate, he nevertheless has companions.

K'an is carriage. Tui metal. This line is in the minister's place and therefore has the task of relieving the oppression. The minister allows himself to be influenced by the honor of having received a golden carriage at the hands of the prince, so that he does not fulfill his task as quickly as he should. This is humiliating; yet in the end all goes well. The line is not in its proper place (the place is yielding, the line is firm), but it is in the relationship of correspondence to the six at the beginning, toward which its will is directed, and therefore it has a companion that induces it to act.
-Wilhelm

rodaki

 

[Sparhawk]

Please, see this page an look for the «Red Knee Bands», a little help, she is at the left of the first picture.

Thus, «Red Knee Bands» could be a woman. «Red Knees» is also a kind of spider. What about a «Spider-Woman»?

«Red Knees» also could be a bird...!

Too much possibilities.

(to be continued)

Yours,

Charly

Hmmm. Maybe... Although, around these parts, "red knees" usually means "rug burns..."

 

[rodaki]

but also 'bed bugs' Luis . . . hmmm . .

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080627134953AAYiqcg

 

[charly]

... the journey of the 'sacred flame' reminds me of the 'sacred light' of orthodox Easter... Still in carrying the light form the church to the house one has to be very careful, not go too fast but not too slow either because it is very easy for the slightest wind to put it out. Often the light is put out during the way and that's why more than one have their candles lit ...

Rodaki:

I agree, it's of the most importance to mantain the candle red. Maybe no less than to be aware about what to do in case of being in shadows.

In H.47 somebody enters in a shaddy valley, he must know how to behave.

Generally women have an important role in maintaining the fire, not only among greeks but also among chinese people. But why have they to wear red pads?

The same character 紱 is translated by Legge as knee-covers (speaking of the ruler) and as aprons, (speking of the ministers), why so different translations for a word that now means ribbon or sash?

Ancient chinese wanted their wives kneeled, the character for lady is a kneeled person.

Another turn of the screw: 紱 is a compound of silk radical and dog, with an extra stroke crossisng one dog's leg, maybe by the knee.

Everybody knows that the dog is the best friend for women. Maybe the same dog that's the best man's friend.

Sacred light means home, and home means marriage. Red ribbons symbolize the affection bonds between wife and husband. Polished charriots have much importance in chinese marriage rituals till our times.

Lanterns Festival is a good occasion for mating youngs, the lantern is a symbol of sub-rosa affairs.

The woman is straw, the man is fire, but who maintained the light if not the woman? The man losts his light quickly and delays in retrieving it. See the guy that after entering in the dark valley losts himself three years!

And LaoZi says that the dark valley is the door to all the marvels, and ...

Yours,

Charly

 

[charly]

Hmmm. Maybe... Although, around these parts, "red knees" usually means "rug burns..."

Luis:

I don't understand, my english is so bad.

Maybe the candle had fallen over the rug. I believe to remember that ancient chinese used beds only when they were sick. For all other uses, only a mat in the floor.

To burn the rug is maybe something that people do when not alone in the night's darkness?

About «Red Knees» it could be a flamingo, remember the lake trigram. There where flamingos in China?

«Red Knees» is a spider, surely they live also in China. I remember some history maybe japanese about a spider-woman, an evil spirit that looked like a beautiful woman but only seeking to eat the man which could fall entangled in her webs.

She can be the red knees that cuts-off the nose and the feet of her victims. and you know what sort of symbol nose and feet are.

Un abrazo,

Charly

 

[maremaria]

( rodaki , are you Greek ?)

 

[Sparhawk]

Luis:

I don't understand, my english is so bad.

Yes, I'm sure the fault is in the English because chances are you've provoked a few of those burns yourself... I would put a picture here but it would be immediately censured.

Son las marcas que quedan en las rodillas al hacer el amor, en cuatro, en una alfombra...

 

[rosada]

47.5 O Nine in the fifth place means:

47.5
His nose and feet are cut off.
Oppression at the hands of the man with the purple
knee bands.
Joy comes softly.
It furthers one to make offerings and libations.

An individual who has the good of mankind at heart is oppressed from above and below (this is the meaning of the cutting off of nose and feet). He finds no help among the people whose duty it would be to aid in the work of rescue (ministers wore purple knee bands). But little by little, things take a turn for the better. Until that time, he should turn to God, firm in his inner composure, and pray and offer sacrifice for the general well-being.
-Wilhelm

 

[rodaki]

dear Charly,
I'm not very savvy in terms of chinese culture or etymology but from what I can see in your image this prisoner of yours is certainly not reading about 'time management' . . . maybe a different sort of recreation for guys under restraint??

yes Maria, I am, I thought my nickname would give me away at least to other Greek people (rodaki as in 'small wheel'?)

rodaki

 

[maremaria]

yes Maria, I am, I thought my nickname would give me away at least to other Greek people (rodaki as in 'small wheel'?)

rodaki

Καλημέρα Ροδάκι .
I wanted to asκ you some time ago. I'm Greek too !.
Nice to meet another one here.

 

[frank_r]

47.5

We arrived at the outer part of the exhaustion, the fift line. The line is strong on the fifth place it's the place of a governing ruler. In the first place there is no resonation with the official in the 2nd place. But if we want to come out of the time of exhaustion we need help from this second line. In time the official will conform to the king on the fifth place. When the line is changing we can be free again(40).
Trigram lake is changing to trigram thunder so a new time will have a beginning here. We go from the dark to the light, from autumn to spring.
The nucleur trigram changes from wind into water so long standing processes change but the diffuculties are not all over yet. Sometimes we can still feel the fear where we came from.

We are in the upper core which is expressed by hexagram 28 so when we come through this time without big problems we have more control over our responsibility and independency.

Frank

 

[charly]

Yes, I'm sure the fault is in the English because chances are you've provoked a few of those burns yourself...

Luis!:

I didn't provoke nothing. I didn't provoke any association. Associations provoked me.

I will post some Wilhelm / Baynes highlights for illustration assap.

You confirm me that I go by the good path.

I wonder for whom comes the joy after cutting-off nose and feet. I don't trust that it come for the the guy that lost his nose and his feet. Maybe it come for the infamous red-knees.

Is H.47 about a sadomasochist session? Where is Tony Saroop for explaining us this things?

Un abrazo,

Charly

 

[Sparhawk]

Luis!:

I didn't provoke nothing. I didn't provoke any association. Associations provoked me.

Yeah, right!!

If in your long life you haven't caused burns on anybody's knees, you still have time...

 

[Sparhawk]

Is H.47 about a sadomasochist session? Where is Tony Saroop for explaining us this things?

No! No need to invoke Tony here. Let him remain in obscurity (peculiar guy, that one... ) No S&M either. I'm just referring to a happy couple, candlelight in front of the fireplace, soft music, a generous dose of good red wine, and see what develops.

 

[rosada]

Cutting off of the nose and feet means he does not yet attain his will.
"Joy comes softly," because the line is straight and central.
"It furthers one to make offerings and libations."
Thus one attains good fortune.
-Wilhelm

 

[charly]

... I'm not very savvy in terms of chinese culture or etymology ...

Rodaki:
You don't need to be a specialist. About etymology I always give my sources that everybody can verify.

In the case of the dog in heat I forgot to do it.

Here there is:

http://www.yellowbridge.com/chinese/character-etymology.php?searchChinese=1&zi=紱

紱fú Definition: ribbon or cord used attach ornaments
...
[Radical component] 糸 [[mì, sī]] silk; KangXi radical 120
[Phonetic component] 犮 [bá] to pull up
...
[Radical component] 犬 [[quǎn]] dog; radical number 94
丿 [[piě]] line; KangXi radical 4
...

... from what I can see in your image this prisoner of yours is certainly not reading about 'time management' ...

Sometimes prisoners are prone to write or draw, like King Wen. Surely he didn't use paper, yet not available, maybe bamboo, maybe the wall.

The most important for the prisoner is what will go to do when free. Say for Wen Wang how to defeat the Shangs, another people have different expectations.

Some less spiritual prisoners preffer another stuff for adorning the walls or closets. You know: calendars, pictures, comics.

From: http://lambiek.net/artists/p/pett_norman.htm
​

There, at the right is the dog!

Yours,

Charly

 

[charly]

Cutting off of the nose and feet means he does not yet attain his will.
"Joy comes softly," because the line is straight and central.
"It furthers one to make offerings and libations."
Thus one attains good fortune.
-Wilhelm

Ros:

Death comes softly.

Better to say our prayers, only God can save us.


Yours,

Charly

 

[charly]

Cutting off of the nose and feet means he does not yet attain his will.
"Joy comes softly," because the line is straight and central.
"It furthers one to make offerings and libations."
Thus one attains good fortune.
-Wilhelm

Rosada:

Chinese characters, pinyin, usual meanings, W/B:

劓 yi4: cut off the nose / HIS NOSE
刖 yue4: cut off the feet / [AND] FEET [ARE] CUTT-OFF

困 kun4: distress / affliction / to be hard pressed / OPPRESION
于 yu2: at / to / AT [THE HANDS OF THE MAN WITH THE] [!]
赤 chi4: red / scarlet // bare / naked / PURPLE
紱 fu2: ribbon for a seal / sash // apron / KNEE BANDS

乃 nai3: thus / then / so / [?]
徐 xu2: slow / gentle / Xu (a surname) / SOFTLY
有 you3: to have / there is / there are / to exist / to be / COMES
說 shuo1: persuade // 說 yuè: to delight / to please / JOY

利 li4: advantage / benefit / profit / sharp / [IT] FURTHERS [ONE]
用 yong4: to use / to apply / TO MAKE
祭 ji4: offer sacrifice / OFFERINGS
祀 si4: offer sacrifice / [AND] LIBATIONS
​

The most intriguing: why the RED RIBBON becomes an oppressive person?
Why cannot be named freely? Maybe is he the King?

The advice could be BEWARE OF THE KING, BETTER RELY IN GOD.
It wasn't the ruler that used the red garnments?
The King is capable to cut off your nose and other parts, but it's not healthy to speak of him openly.

A temporary translation:

NOSELESS, FEETLESS
punished, weakened

HARD PRESSED BY [THE] RED RIBBON
maybe cought by the neck, yet too much commited

IF GENTLE [WILL] HAVE JOY
if slow and softly behaving, you will get joy

PROFITABLE TO DO [THE] SACRED OFFERING
be generous, do it and enjoy it while it lasts.​

Wilhelm / Baynes said that «oppressed from above and below ... is the meaning of the cutting off of nose an feet», it is have figurative sense, maybe to be without too much strenght.

The subject could be male or female, could be man or wife.

The Red-Ribbon that hard pressed could be the King or the Queen, an Official, anybody superior to you, or could be the red ribbon symbolizing the predestined bond between lovers, maybe husband and wife.

Or the red ribbon to exorcize evil strenghts or third parts envy.

The following statements are advices (be gentle, go slowly, have joy, be reverent), good wishes (be it profitable) or imperative (just do it).

A good line for both, girls and guys.

Don't you trust?


Yours,

Charly

_____________________
Remember:
The only persons directly named in H.47 are the Big Man and the Wife.
The character for wife has a lady cought by the neck.
H.47 is interested in vegetables, herbs good for increasing sexual strenght (for both men and women, the 47.3 蒺蔾 ji-li, tribulus terrestris, also known as ba-ji-li) or for geting drunk (the 47.6 葛藟ge-lei vine, vitis flexuosa).

Puncture Vine (Tribulus terrestris): Bai Ji Li / Ci Ji Li
http://www.chinesemedicinetools.com...ure-vine-tribulus-terrestris-bai-ji-li-ci-ji-

(Vitis flexuosa) belongs to Vitaceae (Grape family). It is a
deciduous woody vine that is distributed from Honshu to Shikoku, Kyushu
of Japan, Korean Peninsula and China. This vine occurs in montane
outskirts of forest and climbs up adjacent shrubs and trees
From: http://www.botanic.jp/plants-sa/sankak.htm

 

[rosada]

The line is hemmed in by dark lines. Above it is a dark line. When it tries to do away with this line, the effect is as though its nose were being cut off. When it tries to turn downward, it finds there another obstructing line, the six in the third place; when it tries to remove this line, the effect is as though its feet were being cut off. Therefore it cannot carry out its purpose. Nor is it official, with whom it has a relationship of congruity, in a position to come to its help, because the latter also is penned in and oppressed by dark lines. However, the strong nature of both guarantees final success. Here too, as in the case of the nine in the second place, sacrifice is mentioned.
-Wilhelm



I am going to be away from a computer for a few days, will post 47.6 when I return.
-Roz

 

[my_key]

47.5 - You have become trapped by your own actions and cannot escape. (I always get a sense of cutting off your nose to spite your face here and in doing so you really have backed yourself into a corner) Your ego has had the upper hand and you must now refrain from your previous behaviours. Really try to get in touch with the real you and let some of your old thoughts/ behaviours go. Subtle changes are required in what you do and what you say and once you realise this and start to act accordingly it will slowly lead to a better situation for you.

This line seems to me to be the "ah ha moment" that you get when you realise that for all the best possible reasons, you really have been barking up the wrong tree.

Mike

 

[rosada]

47.6 Six at the top means:

47.6
He is oppresses by creeping vines.
He moves uncertainly and says, "Movement brings remorse."
If one feels remorse over this and makes a start,
Good fortune comes.

 

[my_key]

47.6 - Wallowing in your pit, trapped by your own insecurities and scared to move. Acknowledge how you feel, take on a positive mind set, grasp your courage in both hands, make a decision and go for it.

This very much reminds me of the "Who Moved My Cheese" scenario. This is the mouse who ventures out into the maze.

Take Care
Mike

 

[rosada]

A man is oppressed by bonds that can easily be broken. The distress is drawing to an end. But he is still irresolute; he is still influenced by the previous condition and fears that he may have cause for regret if he makes a move. But as soon as he grasps the situation, changes this mental attitude and makes a firm decision, he masters the oppression.

"He is oppressed by creeping vines." That is, he is not yet suitable.
"Movement brings remorse." If there is remorse, this is an auspicious change.

A weak line at the peak of oppression - this is not yet the suitable way. But through movement and the awakening within of the requisite insight, one frees oneself from the oppression. Hence the prospect of good fortune when the time of oppression comes to an end.
-Wilhelm

 

[charly]

47.6
He is oppresses by creeping vines.
He moves uncertainly and says, "Movement brings remorse."
If one feels remorse over this and makes a start,
Good fortune comes.

Ros:

Chinese characters, pinyin, usual meanings, W/B:

困 kun4: distress / oppession / hard pressing / [HE IS] OPPRESSED
于 yu2: at / to / BY
葛 ge2: coarse grass linen / CREEPING
藟 lei3: bud / creeper / bramble / VINES (1)

于 yu2: at / to / [HE] MOVES (2)
臲 nie4: tottering / unsteady / ...
卼 wu4: uncomfortable / unsteady / UNCERTAINLY

曰 yue1: to speak / to say / [AND] SAYS
動 dong4: to use / to act / to move / to change / [«] MOVEMENT
悔 hui3: regret / remorse / REMORSE
有 you3: to have / there is / there are / BRINGS [»]
悔 hui3: regret / remorse / [IF ONE FEELS] REMORSE [OVER THIS AND]

征 zheng1: attack / trip / expedition / [MAKES A] START
吉 ji2: lucky / GOOD FORTUNE [COMES]

​

W/B rendering is some twisted mainly at the end, a more literal translation would be:

OPPRESSED
being hard pressed

AT CREEPING VINES / VINEYARDS
by the grapes of temptation

AT UNCERTAINTY
by the own insecurity / unsteadyness (3)


SAY,
in other words

[IF] ACTION REGRET BRINGS REGRET
when in a vicious circle (4)

[THEN] TO ATTACK [IS] LUCKY
to go boldly brings good fortune

​

The advice could be:

«You are in a hard to solve conflict, better no regrets and just do it. Cut the big knot.»

Of course, VINEYARS and REGRETS, reminds me the «Song of Songs» (5), vineyards and grapes are female symbols, the character 悔hui3 depicts a heart and a concealed naked woman, maybe the heart of feminity. Say, the guy or the girl is having a night of passion.

Yours,

Charly

________________
(1)葛藟 ge2 lei3 both characters together designates the «vitis flexuosa»,, the character lei3 depicts a raceme of grapes.

From: http://www.zdic.net

(2) 于 yu2, mainly a particle that follows a verb implying mouvement but sometimes a verb itself.

于 yu2 ... a particle in literary use - in / at / by / to /a verb in literary use - to go or proceed / to take ...
FROM: http://www.chineseetymology.org/Cha...aspx?characterInput=于&submitButton1=Etymology

(3) to be between Escila and Caribdis, between the sword and the wall, between wish and capability, having no choise.

(4) → NO REGRETS

(5) Song of Songs, Sulamite says ...

1.6 Look not upon me, because I am black, because the sun hath looked upon me: my mother's children were angry with me; they made me the keeper of the vineyards; but mine own vineyard have I not kept...
2.15 Take us the foxes, the little foxes, that spoil the vines: for our vines have tender grapes...
From King James Version
at: http://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/kjv/sol001.htm#001

 

[charly]

困 kun4: tree in a square
See how H.47 is related with the Song of Songs, see this image of the tree in the square and see the creeping vine:

From: http://www.huc.edu/newspubs/pressroom/2005/9/band1.shtml

Charly