4th Yang in Hexagram 17, Sui

[peter2610]

17,4:

Following creates success.
Perseverance brings misfortune.
To go one's way with sincerity brings clarity.
How could there be blame in this?​

This is a line in which my understanding has slowly evolved over a long period of time. Many of the commentaries on this line focus on the dangers inherent in an acquired following. One is swept away by one's own success. This interpretation sounds plausible enough but it starts to unravel in situations where there is no prospect of any immediate success or any acquired followers.

Liu I-ming, a Taoist master, carefully distinguishes between the respective meanings of the two opening lines of the text and I will attempt to paraphrase his position as follows:

True and discerning Following creates success.
But excessive force (yang following yang) will lead to misfortune...​

Here the process is identified, correctly, as primarily an internal one in which any potential danger lies not in the act of Following itself, but in the level of clarity available. The third line of the text 'To go one's way with sincerity brings clarity' implies that at present we are lacking in clarity. It is important that we discern our path accurately and not mistakenly believe that 'leading' is the same as following. A more prosaic interpretation could be given as follows:

True and discerning Following creates success.
But perseverance in your present approach will lead to misfortune...​

This is a line in which we are enjoined to follow the guidance we are given with truthful penetration and 'Genuine Intent' and to avoid any excesses arising from 'Mundane Mind.' We are asked to distinguish the demands of our true path from the demands of our ego-self (Mundane Mind).
The parallel nuclear process Hex 53 Chien, to Hex 23 Po, further reinforces the danger of abandoning our true path of Gradual Progress ("The man goes forth and does not return") leading to our Splitting Apart and our loss of true discernment and 'Genuine Intent.'

 

[Tohpol]

Good to see you back Peter. Keep 'em coming.

 

[peter2610]

Many thanks Topal, and Charly.

 

[jilt]

hello peter,

the fourth line from hex 17, sui, reminds me of total institutions. This term was coined 1957 by the sociologist Ervin Goffman, wikipedia has got a good intro on it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_institution
The study from Goffman reveals a lot about how people make follow rules, habits, customs and force others also to make them follow behavior that is against their heart -because it is good for the "whole" it is good for us, it is good for you. just follow me.
When there is such a strict set of rules for behavior, widespread slipping if the rules is common behavior, sometimes even a parallel social environment comes into existence.
Acquiring followers comes with this institutionalized "corruption": when a "superior" finds out a "minor" has broken the rules, he can punish, or "mats" (i hope this is the right english term) that person. A favor is given in the expectation that favor will be returned or the feeling of obligation can be exploited. It is hard to keep on being sincere in situations like this.
Of course on "normal" life things are not so severe as in those institutions like army, hospital, prison etc, but there are many comparable situations on the work-floor, in families, on schools, seminaria. When a group has some deviant behaviour, the member who talks to others about will be punished. I think teasing easily comes with this line.
Just think about what makes people follow others, the ideas of others and what might happen if the ideology, the commercial, the propaganda, the brand was just a trick to gain following: marketing.


The final outcome when you stay sincere in this situation might very well be a whistle-blower posiotion.

Perhaps the bottomline of this 4rth line, in some interpretation the line of the official, the minster, the one who executes the rules of the 5th line, might be that it is about precedents and following precedents.
Some might argue that our whole juridical system is based on the logic of precedents.

 

[jilt]

in addition of the above:

There are some well known and shocking experiments about following. Gruesome was the one with the electric shocks. Images were shown of someone giving electric shocks to someone in a chair. To the participants in the test was said that no harm was done, and the voltage was pushed up. Then the participants were asked to administer the shocks. Without any problem directions were followed, nobody asked any questions. Fortunately the shocks were fake, else people would have died.

Situations like this come into existence when feed-back only comes from a punish-reward-system, and one feels (relatively) comfortable within the ideology that goes with this system. The comfort is that you don't have to think, ethics is done for you.
I think contemporary consumer society functions like this: feedback on human wealth and growth gives great riches, everybody is doing it, so because everybody does we also can do it without problem. As soon as feedback comes from a broader perspective, like ecology or masses of exploited people, responsability and the guilt are explained away by pointing to all those others that consume so abundantly.
When enough people go for a broader feedback (line 5 and 6) a system like this comes into crisis.

 

[peter2610]

Hello Jilt,

Many thanks for your detailed commentary on this line. Your comments on Goffman's "Total Institutions" are, I feel, completely relevant. Much of the expenditure of large corporations and political bodies is ascribed towards creating an imagery that is as 'total' as possible. This creates an effective dynamic but carries the risk of lack of balance and removes any sense of personal responsibility. Without a balanced wholeness any intense dynamic will eventually defeat itself. The American withdrawal from Vietnam was a perfect example of a vibrant, specific 'yang' force being defeated by a ubiquitous, non-specific 'yin' presence.

The Milgram Experiments showed the readiness of the public to submit and conform to a 'total institution' - that of academic science. The imagery of powerful institutions is so pervasive within our society that we will readily suspend our sense of personal responsibility in the belief that the moral responsibility of the institution is 'total' and not to be questioned. To go against such widely-accepted institutions is to risk public condemnation and punitive action. Why risk this when we can take a 'moral holiday' simply by handing the moral responsibility over to an institution that claims to have greater insight?
At a personal level, we develop 'total institutions' within the psyche as we increasingly adopt and nurture unbalanced demands and emotive dynamics. Fourth yang in Hex 17 very often seeks to demonstrate to us that we are not acting from a position of balanced discrimination but rather from a position that lacks directive clarity and thus falls back into the 'total institution' of our habitual response mechanisms.
The 'Great Impasse' of the Taoist and other paths is a period when we are "forcibly" led to withdraw from worldly interaction in order to, amongst other things, strip away our acquired dynamics and re-build them within a framework of balanced equilibrium.

 

[anemos]

The Milgram Experiments showed the readiness of the public to submit and conform to a 'total institution' - that of academic science. The imagery of powerful institutions is so pervasive within our society that we will readily suspend our sense of personal responsibility in the belief that the moral responsibility of the institution is 'total' and not to be questioned. To go against such widely-accepted institutions is to risk public condemnation and punitive action. Why risk this when we can take a 'moral holiday' simply by handing the moral responsibility over to an institution that claims to have greater insight?
At a personal level, we develop 'total institutions' within the psyche as we increasingly adopt and nurture unbalanced demands and emotive dynamics. Fourth yang in Hex 17 very often seeks to demonstrate to us that we are not acting from a position of balanced discrimination but rather from a position that lacks directive clarity and thus falls back into the 'total institution' of our habitual response mechanisms.

I asked about the attitude of a person that we see they have involve in a war innocent people. That person and another one are the only one that they "miss" to see the consequences. Its not a coincidence that both have a common experience. What amazed me was the words of one of them that said through the other relives their past. everything said here and especially the quoted and underlined resonates a lot !! thank you all !

What is interesting about Milgram its not only the obedience the participants show but as Ross notes, their ineffectual disobedience. I had never made this association with line 17.4 but i can see how it applies. Very interesting thought !

 

[peter2610]

I feel that what 17,4 is leading to is a critical distinction between any 'assumed but deeply held truths' and truth-in-itself, an often abstract level of truth, free of personal bias or pre-determined assumption. The problem echoes somewhat Plato's Theory of Forms in that we are being asked to distinguish between the truth of everyday reality and truth in its purest, most abstract form. It could be argued that the I Ching is urging us to follow here our highest concept of truth, but it is important to note that all that is required is the humble process of 'following.' In the West we are long accustomed to the process of rationalising and analysing before we commit to a course of action, whereas the I Ching often urges us to simply follow the guidance of our teacher, secure in the knowledge that a deeper and more profound understanding will emerge after we have experienced the living truth.

 

[anemos]

I feel that what 17,4 is leading to is a critical distinction between any 'assumed but deeply held truths' and truth-in-itself, an often abstract level of truth, free of personal bias or pre-determined assumption.

how can we distinguish them its an interesting subject with a difficult answer - if there is an answer at all. In order to be able to assess them , I suppose we need some conditions that fulfill them or not and , imho, this can be problematic. I'm interest to hear your thoughts on that. Its well known that we are not that rational as we believe and the more simple example is illusions. We can be aware of those illusion but how can we be sure we have disperse all of the and reach to the Truth or the essence.

I really like the part of H3 says " In order to find one's place in the infinity of being, one must be able both to separate and to unite." Plato's ideas somehow echoes that too. I understand better those words of Wilhelm when i started learning sumi-e and trying to learn on my own Chinese calligraphy. before you draw anything you need to learn the basic strokes and combining them you construct an image. That works in the opposite direction too. You need to observe the character you are about to draw, see from which strokes consists and try to replicate it.

I personally find this particular phrase quite profound and I can see some association with the ideas of how we create meaning and try to make sense of the world around us- from chaos to order. but this continuous change of states makes me wonder if there is such a True- the Pure one. Have no answer yet...

 

[sooo]

I feel that what 17,4 is leading to is a critical distinction between any 'assumed but deeply held truths' and truth-in-itself, an often abstract level of truth, free of personal bias or pre-determined assumption. The problem echoes somewhat Plato's Theory of Forms in that we are being asked to distinguish between the truth of everyday reality and truth in its purest, most abstract form. It could be argued that the I Ching is urging us to follow here our highest concept of truth, but it is important to note that all that is required is the humble process of 'following.' In the West we are long accustomed to the process of rationalising and analysing before we commit to a course of action, whereas the I Ching often urges us to simply follow the guidance of our teacher, secure in the knowledge that a deeper and more profound understanding will emerge after we have experienced the living truth.

Hi Peter,

Pure and abstract seem to me to be polar opposites. For example, a pure bred blood line dog vs a Heinz 57 variety blood line, a clear idea vs a vague and abstract thought, a clear thought vs a vague feeling.

Also, our highest concept of truth may not be pure truth at all, only our abstract concept or interpretation of what pure truth is or means. This planet is replete with believers of what they consider to be "the truth", yet the varieties of these beliefs seem practically infinite. As Pilot said to Jesus, what is truth!

I think truth is personal, and when it becomes collective, in philosophical form or religious form we call it dogma, not "the truth". Even members of the same religion have entirely different specific beliefs about that religion. Look too at the different views of a single change line, such as 17.4. Is there a pure truth to that line, or is it intended to stimulate our mind to interpret the words of that line? To some intellectual minds, the meaning is fixed, finished, completed, or that famous line: "what the authors intended." To a creative mind it can mean several things depending on the applicable context. To yet others, it's a combination of both. Even the most informed astrophysicists attribute different meanings to a concept, such as dark matter. The best of the best are neither afraid nor ashamed to admit they don't know what it is; they only observe the effect "it" has upon more tangible matter. Some think it should not even be named because names, such as dark matter, can be completely misleading. Like the Tao, that can be named isn't the Tao.

I personally prefer a good mutt over an ideal purebred. Purely personal preference and experience.

For me, 17.4 says, it's okay to walk away, to disobey, to find and follow your own way.

That said, I enjoy reading your ideas on this forum, even when they differ from mine. You think, not parrot. :bows:

 

[anemos]

For me, 17.4 says, it's okay to walk away, to disobey, to find and follow your own way.

interesting connection with the line it follows this one (17.5 's lodestar) While is not very apparent as in 48 or 53 for instance, there is a story-line with clear steps in 17.

Pondering on 17 in general some time ago I noticed that its maybe one of the few Gua that thunder is idle and a time to reflect its what appears appropriate. The busyness of the day leaves not much time to reflect, so in nights Yi says its necessary to stop and ponder.

There is a saying here that goes in the lines of 'tell me who your friends are, so to tell you who you are'. Sometimes what we follow is what we are and some theories posit learning by mirroring is very strong. When someone performs an action, some say that we actually "perform" it to in our brains through our mirror neuron- just a theory of course but an interesting one. The firing of our neuron, in my eyes has similarities with the thunder and 17 somehow ask for cease firing or check it at least

 

[sooo]

17.5 play

I fired a neuron and she fired back,
so I sent her to bed to think about what she'd done.
There was no battle won,
but it was kinda fun
giving birth to a son;
though he could not answer
from where he had come -
was it his dad or his mum?

 

[anemos]

sometime ago I went to a friend that is a reiki healer (not sure about reiki tho) to have a massage session because i was not feeling well. At the end of the session he told me, as i was laying on the massage bed, to concentrate at the music he had put and his hands that were holding my head. I tried to obey to his instructions because i thought since he is a professional, this was what i had to do and gain the benefits of this exercise. However I couldn't do it. I push my self to obey but my mind and my whole being was In another place where it was warm and nice - where i wanted to be.

It really was a struggle to keep myself away from this place and fell bad for don't respecting his guidance and ignore them... but I really wanted to do my thing, to be in that place I was seeing in my mind, where i was happy and felt a lightness that I missed so much and was exactly the opposite i was going through those days. I choose to ignore his instruction and I'ld apologize for that but also explain to him why I did it. It didn't felt right to me( his instructions) and I knew I had to follow my gut feeling.

This is what I did. at the end I told him that i was sorry for no doing it right but I really felt that my place was "there" and not "here" listening to the music or focusing to his hand. He told me : this is where you soul wanted to be and was "right" to ignore his command .

some moths after that, I asked Yi some guidance regarding a problem i needed to solve. Didn't ask what to do but to give me a focal point so I could decide myself. Yi said 17.5 and immediately I saw that image again , that place and me into that picture happy.

Sooo's comment helped me connect those two lines (17.4 and 17.5) and understand better what the reiki instructor force me to do. he didn't want to obey but disobey and follow my own lodestar. ... and maybe the seat the king offers in the western mountain , is a seat for the soul;a nice comfortable seat

there is a long video about Milgram's experiment. Will try to find it and post it here because it show that struggle- the effort to disobey and the pressure to obey. I'm afraid the one i'm looking for has not free access but will try to find it nevertheless. Its disturbing but eyeopening at the same time. Its a must seen, imho.

 

[anemos]

unfortunately, this is the only vid I could find. The price of the DVD ( $229) explains why they don't allow it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5xCV8rlp8Co

 

[peter2610]

how can we distinguish them [levels of truth] its an interesting subject with a difficult answer - if there is an answer at all. In order to be able to assess them , I suppose we need some conditions that fulfill them or not and , imho, this can be problematic. I'm interest to hear your thoughts on that. Its well known that we are not that rational as we believe and the more simple example is illusions. We can be aware of those illusion but how can we be sure we have disperse all of the and reach to the Truth or the essence.

You're right, it's a difficult answer. In law a great deal of effort is made to reduce EVERYTHING to the level of physical truth (i.e.: the car is red) and then subsequently struggling desperately with the fact that truth within the human psyche contains a great deal of fluidity, and is neither physical nor fixed. Having said that, however, repeated patterns of thinking can constitute, within the psyche, a 'fixed reality' which we can be loath to abandon even though we are aware that it is not based on fundamental, absolute principles. The 'assumed truths' of everyday reality are usually based on repeated experience. They are extremely valuable in enabling us to survive at a physical level but they are formulated on 'relative' principles and must not be confused with more fundamental truths, based on increasingly abstract and less relative principles, though they often are. A good example of these different 'levels' is to think of a fast-flowing river; on one level it consists of unending change, of infinitely varied eddies and currents, of still pools and rapids but the essence of all these changes is far simpler and comparatively unchanging - it is simply 'a river.' From the multiplicity of infinite change there evolves the changeless essence - "In order to find one's place in the infinity of being, one must be able both to separate and to unite" - beautiful, stunningly beautiful.

 

[anemos]

In law a great deal of effort is made to reduce EVERYTHING to the level of physical truth (i.e.: the car is red) and then subsequently struggling desperately with the fact that truth within the human psyche contains a great deal of fluidity, and is neither physical nor fixed.

can understand that. Recollection and memory in general can be distorted from many other influences , oftentimes without being aware of.

Seems we need a 'fixed' reality and maybe there lays the need for a Truth, to avoid and maybe reduce the uncertainty of not knowing. Like you said, it seems essential for our survival -literally or figuratively. It creates a solid ground to stand - the void is not comfortable

A good example of these different 'levels' is to think of a fast-flowing river; on one level it consists of unending change, of infinitely varied eddies and currents, of still pools and rapids but the essence of all these changes is far simpler and comparatively unchanging - it is simply 'a river.' From the multiplicity of infinite change there evolves the changeless essence - "In order to find one's place in the infinity of being, one must be able both to separate and to unite" - beautiful, stunningly beautiful.

the river example and the essence of an 'object' resembles the idea of archetypes. Common ideas, universal in some respects, expressed in different forms and faces. Maybe there is not such a things as The Truth, but it worth take the path down there and start pruning influences , convictions etc. Maybe believes, convictions and so on, while it is regarded as an obstacle to that quest , it shows also the need to Know . Hex 61 commentaries contain another gem, imo: "delay executions"-the fluidity, maybe,as opposed to crystallization.

 

[peter2610]

Seems we need a 'fixed' reality and maybe there lays the need for a Truth, to avoid and maybe reduce the uncertainty of not knowing. Like you said, it seems essential for our survival -literally or figuratively. It creates a solid ground to stand - the void is not comfortable[/COLOR]

Yes, we need this level of truth for our everyday survival, for our everyday decisions and actions. In Taoism this is the truth of the 'mundane mind' and its fundamental characteristic is that it is comprised of relative values, that is, values whose truths are dependent and conditional. in the river example a contra-flowing current is true within its limited sphere, and is dependent upon adjacent currents and river-bed formations. This is truth that is valid only within its own relative dimensions. If we seek a more universal level of truth, then we are seeking Essence, the Mind of Tao, a level of truth with fewer and fewer relative values (conditioned formations) that ultimately resides in the void. The mundane mind is terrified by the void, seeing it as formless and meaningless. The Mind of Tao is fulfilled by the void, recognising it as the ultimate Essence, formless and non-relative, a singularity that is universal and absolute.

 

[anemos]

swimming the river backwards was an image came when discussing in another thread hex 4 and 29. You are saying something similar here, and i agree.

however , what is not very satisfying to me is the distinction between inferior- mundane mind and the superior Mind. Universals, seem to me, its a 'product' of both minds. Maybe the mundane mind its a manifestation of the Mind of Tao. I don't express my thought well, I do feel that, but what i try to say is are those mind totally different or Just the different faces of the same thing?. What is difficult with the Truth is as long as you reach to a bedrock and feels like to reached to the 'destination' you realize that there is another strata, a level deeper and that goes on and on.

Its my impression, and maybe I 'm wrong , as I haven't study in depth those ideas, but the mundane part of us- humans- somehow is not much appreciated compared to the spiritual one.

have been thinking many time how Buddha would felt , when he realized he couldn't do anything to end suffering. Must be a big defeat for him, but accepting that limitation was what liberate him ( i think)

the exile from Eden, was that split -the duality we experience... not sure why we keep support it. Not sure why the mundane part of us is so rejected and considered inferior. how we can find peace , return to Eden , if we keep feeding that duality ?

 

[peter2610]

however , what is not very satisfying to me is the distinction between inferior- mundane mind and the superior Mind. Universals, seem to me, its a 'product' of both minds. Maybe the mundane mind its a manifestation of the Mind of Tao. I don't express my thought well, I do feel that, but what i try to say is are those mind totally different or Just the different faces of the same thing?. What is difficult with the Truth is as long as you reach to a bedrock and feels like to reached to the 'destination' you realize that there is another strata, a level deeper and that goes on and on.

A more commonly applied terminology is as 'Life' and 'Essence' and they are best regarded as equally valued aspects of the one process. 'Life' represents an infinitude of expressive variation and change, 'Essence' represents the convergence of infinite change into absolute, non-relative singularity (but don't think of this as a 'thing'). Both are aspects of the Tao. Life is conditioned and relative, all aspects of life are subject to dependent origination, they all share in the mutual generation of Essence, the mutual expression of meaning and art. Essence in its final form is unconditioned, non-relative and absolute. In our everyday lives we struggle with the impermanence and seduction of conditionality and the mind can become locked into the view that relative formations represent ultimate truth and reality - in Vedanta this is the formation of Maya,
"As ignorance or cosmic illusion, Maya draws a veil over Brahman and also veils our vision, so that we see only the diversity of the universe rather than the one reality." -The Rider Encyclopedia of Eastern Philosophy and Religion.

In Taoism this is loosely equivalent to Mundane Mind but don't think of this as a fixed, inferior part of mind, it isn't. It's all a question of degree. The Mind of Life is the gateway to Essence, to the Mind of Tao, provided both are kept in harmony and balance. If the Mind of Life becomes deeply entrenched in relative diversity it loses the ability to recognise Essence and becomes permanently a mundane mind.

 

[Annamaria]

To perceive our world from a holistic point of view, where ying and yang complete each other and are one, are the oneneness, this would mean to me to live in a paradise on earth...

 

[peter2610]

Instead of chunnering-on and on like myself, you've just summed-up the entire process in one sentence - many thanks, I'm trying very hard not to feel jealous.

 

[Annamaria]

Thank you!!!

 

[anemos]

I just asked Yi " Erm mm " and got 17.4

Ermhh, because I just receive an invitation for having an interview for I job position that from the title of the job I believe it's a mistake, the "response mechanism" peter mentioned.
From the same company had some polite rejection and were almost delete the message before read it. It's not modesty or low self confidence the reasons I believe it's a mistake but clearly that is for graduates for a specific are that I'm sure I don't own such a degree. I was inclined to write them and asked the if theye is a mistake , but holded my self and waiting for the interview details, don't follow my instinctual response in other words.

The experience I shared earlier in this thread is how I have experienced 17.4 , but I'm curious if there is another facet.

 

[sooo]

What harm could it possibly do? Even if it doesn't work out, you will gain the experience, which could lead you to the next step. hmm

 

[peter2610]

Yes Anemos there can be a number of facets that apply to this line but they generally reduce to the same interpretation. 'Following creates success...' is referring to any established view/direction that you have been following, usually with the I Ching's guidance. In this case I would suggest that it is supporting your established direction in the face of repeated rejections from this company. 'Perseverance brings misfortune...' is usually referring to a new direction that you are now considering - in this case the opportunity of an interview that has been made to you. I would suggest that it might be useful to follow-up with another question in a similar direction.

If you find it difficult to apply this interpretation to your situation then I would fully agree with Sooo's suggestion that you give the interview a try, provided that you remain prepared to carefully examine your direction after the interview. Hope this helps.

 

[sooo]

Exactly, Peter. More often than not this line has referred more to leaving something, changing direction, though the exact direction isn't always clear. Since following isn't so much about final destinations but more about transitions, holding tightly to, or persevering in, seems not to be the point. Nevertheless, even if not landing on a milestone, one may land on a stepping stone, which will move one in a useful direction. It may not offer the security one would like, but one gains important experience.

When the bottom fell out from a successful sales organization, when bought out by the massive AT&T telecommunications, it was time for me to change direction. Knowing absolutely nothing about computers and the internet, I applied for a marketing director position for an entrepreneurial small online game operation, and was paid handsomely. Though this company didn't endure in such a new and competitive marketplace, I gained enough experience to get work selling for a website development company. Though this too wasn't a permanent landing, it gave me the experience needed to go on to the next transition, and so forth - following, as though on a predestined path of which I knew nothing about.

I can't think, off the top of my head, any line 4 that is intended to be a final destination, and 17.4 changes to 3, which is not an easy new beginning, but it is a new beginning nonetheless. Thunder (dragon) under the lake (17) is life waiting to sprout, not a crop ready for harvest.

 

[anemos]

I agree with both of you. I intent to give it a try but still perplexed how I got an interview invitation for a job I have not apply for and given the prerequisites and the competition , as it is a multinational company and the standard are high and applications are not processed if one doesn't met some prerequisites; it's an honor to be considered, tho

Yesterday and today received 4 indentical rejection emails for a position I have apply , so either there is a glitch at their end or my application goes to different branches around the world and each of them send a response.

I have no idea what the job is , apart it's for finance graduates and it really doesn't make sense. So , I wonder if 3 depicts the chaos of their communication. Moreover, interview and verbal numerical tests should be done till tomorrow morning and still no email for directions.... this is why the confusion .

Anyways, I'll know shortly what is going on. Mean while, taking the "follow" advise and act as if all is right.

Thank you guys !!! Will let you know

:bows:

 

[peter2610]

Thanks anemos, keep us posted.

Yes Sooo, 17,4 is often about leaving something, often leaving an attractive option in order to remain faithful to, to follow, one's true path. It is not, as you rightly observe, a hexagram primarily concerned with the final destination but rather with the difficulties of following one's true path, the I Ching's guidance.

I see 17,4 as a situation in which, impatient with the prolonged demands of one's situation, one is severely tempted by any other option that is available. The Parallel Nuclear Progression (53,3,5-23) gives an exact parallel to this meaning: 53,3 describes a situation in which both husband and wife have a wrong viewpoint (line resultant Hex 20) and hence abandon their perseverance, 53,5 describes the good fortune that can be received if perseverance can be maintained. Hex 23 confirms that this failing in perseverance and loss of faith in one's final success can lead to a Splitting Apart from one's true direction.

I think the key stage in understanding 17,4 lies in a detailed analysis of its first two lines. 'Following creates success' confirms the overall essence of the hexagram, that success is assured if we can discern and follow our true path. 'Perseverance brings misfortune' is NOT referring to perseverance in Following, it is not referring to the previous line but rather to perseverance in some new idea or option that has appeared. Perseverance in this new option will lead to misfortune. Hope this helps.

 

[anemos]

Just an update

Never got the invitation with the details for the interview, neither an answer to my email for expressing my concern that the deadline was next day and till then I had no info.

Perhaps this reading was about the flattering email of how good cv I had and the appropriate responses for the initial screening stage and that's was all. So, I should go on as usual and leave that behind me.

I still feel your intepretations can apply to this situation.
much appreciated

 

[Bill Skywatcher]

Line 4

Following creates success.
Perseverance brings misfortune.
To go one's way with sincerity brings clarity.
How could there be blame in this?
​

I have studied the I Ching for almost 50 years. I think I can interpret this line to everyone's satisfaction. The line essentially means to be a surfer. Follow your tao for as long as it is your tao for as long as it feels worth following. Ride the wave. Feel it. Be at one with it. No wave lasts forever. The wave arrives on the beach. So must you. What did that all mean to you?

The line itself transforms the hexagram into Hexagram 4, Youthful Folly, or Babes in the Woods, if you will. When you have arrived on the beach, you will have been transformed by the experience. You will be reborn. You will be like a Babe in the Woods. There is no blame in this, just be your transformed self. There can be no greater payment for the wave.

Namaste