51. Chen / The Arousing (Shock, Thunder)

[frank_r]

Hi Frank

Interesting post on the Enneagram links.
I'm curious as to how these numbers link to say the life path or destiny path in numerology. Any pointers you can give would be helpful
Also - How do you get an enneagram or just any number for a country. Who fills out teh questionairres and who does the marking?

Mike

Hello Mike,

There a lot of questionarres to make up your ennegram type http://www.eclecticenergies.com/enneagram/test.php or http://www.9types.com/rheti/homepage.actual.html
Then there are severall referals to countries.
the interesting from enneagrams is that it can give you a lot of insights how the numbers influence each other. For instance 1 divided by 7 (the number of our emotions) you get 0,142857. This is the connection between the numbers of the enneagram(the direction of stress or desintegration). This are the connections between the numbers 1,2,4,5,7,8. The numbers that are connected with hexgram 63 and 64. The River crossings.

the connections between the numbers 3-6-9 are connected by hexagram 1 and 2. The Dragon Gates the hexagrams of being and non being.
I hope this answers your question a little bit because ennegrams can give you lots of insight in yourself and also between all the numbers.

Frank

 

[rosada]

Interesting about the shoe sales!

I recently came across a statistic that there were 33% more heart attacks in major cities throughout America in the 30 days following 9/11 - more evidence of SHOCK spreading for miles around.

 

[rosada]

"Shock goes hither and thither. Danger." One walks in danger.
The "things to be done" are in the middle, hence nothing at all is lost.

The line is central, like the six in the second place. But while in the latter case danger threatens (nuclear trigram K'an), here it has been overcome and one is already on the hill (nuclear trigram Ken). Hence one loses nothing. The point is to hold firmly to the central position and thus to conserve for oneself the strength inherent in it - the fifth place being the place of the ruler. The six in the second place is the official. An official may lose his property temporarily, but all of it can be replaced. The six in the fifth place, however, is the ruler, and his possessions consist of land and people. These must not be lost. Such loss can be prevented if one maintains a central position and behaves correctly.
-Wilhelm

 

[ravenstar]

Hallo Janice,

IIntersting what you are writing about the third house in astrology. I personally have a lot of my important planets in this third House(Mercurius, Moon, Sun and saturnus)

In the Ennegram types 3 is the achiever,(http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/TypeTHree.asp) the three works from the heart. It is between the two, (the giver) and 4(the romantic).
A three never gives up, we also wants to win everything. He his afraid to fail.
the three is working with courage and justice. The connection with astrologie the three is the Capricorn(the triangle 3-6-9 are all earth signs) Throught these earth signs there is the connection with hexagram 1 and 2.
The three cann also be reckless.
the three can be the representation of the courage of the heart. The 2 is the underdevelopment of courage and the 4 is the overdevelopment. All three these types 2-3-4 are working with the avoidance of pain and want to preserve the individual.
America is a 3 country.

Frank

Hi Frank,

I've only a few minutes, the boss is out !! Interesting about 3, 6, 9, as they are the cadent houses in astrology...

http://www.bobmarksastrologer.com/CadentHouses.htm

"Houses numbered 3, 6, 9, and 12 are called the Cadent Houses. They come after the succedent houses and before the angular houses. We can look at cadent houses as being the thought (or lack of it) that we do before we take action (angular houses). They also show the analysis and criticism we do on the resources we already have (the succedent houses).
Without cadent houses, we would never grow or develop. We would stay stuck with what we already have (succedent houses) and never be able to think before acting. Cadent Houses are the backup of Angular House action."

Interesting you have so many planets in the third house! I have Saturn in the third house too....it just loves holding what we've just learned and royally dissects it then studies it more. And for you, Saturn grounds that immense Mercurial energy!!!

As far as the enneagram, I'm a 6 (the head) compared to you (the heart).....6 has also been called the Devil's Advocate

ravenstar

 

[rosada]

Thinking still about the appropriateness of Bush handling the crisis/shock of the shoe being thrown at him by dodging it. I mean, couldn't one say that pretty much sums up his whole technique, "He was good at dodging"?
Obama on the other hand appears to be able to keep his cool and DEAL with what comes at him. Geez, what a concept. Anyway, I was at first wondering if there was some reason why I should postpone posting line 51.6 because 51.5 seemed like the more fortuitous focus for the Inauguration tomorrow. However, upon closer study I've decided there can be an even more positive omen in having Obama take office at the time of 51.6 so I'm going a head with the usual pace and posting it now.
What I'm seeing in 51.6 re Obama is that it appears to be saying that while the pundits and prognosticators are running about crying, "The sky is falling" making progress impossible, Obama has not lost his calm, furthermore he seems to be able to learn from the mistakes of his "neighbor" the former president and will not buy into that mind set. Those who would like to perpetuate gloom and doom will be displeased.

51.5
Dodge!
-Bush doctrine.
51.6
Deal!
-Obama doctrine

 

[rosada]

51.6
Shock brings ruin and terrified gazing around.
Going ahead brings misfortune.
If it has not yet touched one's own body
But has reached one's neighbor first,
There is no blame.
One's comrades have something to talk about.

 

[charly]

51.6
Shock brings ruin and terrified gazing around.
Going ahead brings misfortune.
If it has not yet touched one's own body
But has reached one's neighbor first,
There is no blame.
One's comrades have something to talk about.

Rosada:

W/B translation isn't exempt of humor, the guys that looks for a wife to marry (or something worse) are called «COMRADES» maybe for compensate the lost onomatopoeias.

Suo-suo means to whisper and jue-jue to look terrified, say like a bird caught by a hawk, the character jue depicts a bird with great eyes perching on a hand → hawking, falconry, also bird in hand, caught bird.

When the shock / shake / thunder WHISPERS (suo-suo) like an OWL and looks like a HAWKED BIRD, you know, TO ATTACK is NOT A GOOD IDEA.

If the shock / shake / thunder doesn't BEND ONESELF but one's NEIGHBOR, it's no bad.

And the guys that look for girls, the «comrades» have something to say.


CHINESE CHARACTRERS, PINYIN, USUAL MEANINGS / W/B

震 zhen4: shake / shock / thunder / SHOCK
索 suo3: to demand / to ask / ...
索 suo3: to demand / to ask / ... BRINGS RUIN [AND] (1)

視 shi4: to look at / to regard / GAZING AROUND
矍 jue2: glance fearfully / hawked / ...
矍 jue2: glance fearfully / hawked / ... TERRIFIED (2)

征 zheng1: attack / trip / expedition / GOING AHEAD
凶 xiong1: fierce / terrible / ominous / [BRINGS] MISFORTUNE

震 zhen4: shake / shock / thunder / (not translated)
不 bu4: not / no / un... / [IF IT HAS] NOT
于 yu2: at / to YET TOUCHED
其 qi2: his / her / its / theirs / that / such / 's / ONE'S OWN
躬 gong1: oneself / personally / to bow / to bend / BODY

于 yu2: at / to [BUT HAS REACHED]
其 qi2: his / her / its / theirs / that / such / 's / ONE'S
鄰 lin2: neighbor / close to / NEIGHBOR [FIRST]

无 wu2: without / not / no / avoid / [THERE IS] NO
咎 jiu4; blame / mistake / wrong / BLAME

婚 hun1 / to marry / marriage / wedding / to take a wife / ...
媾 gou4 / to marry / to copulate / ... ONE'S COMRADES
有 you3 / to have / there is / there are / to exist / to be / HAVE [SOMETHING]
言 yan2 / to speak / to say / talk / word / TO TALK [ABOUT]
​

I believe that the key for understanding H.51 resides in the knowledge of ancient marriage customs, mainly the KIDNAPPING of the BRIDE, maybe in the YI, like among barbars, all the marriageable girls were TREASURES (4) and all the boys BRIGANDS («comrades» for W).

Yours,

Charly


______________________________

(1) 索索 [suo2suo3], adj., (1) a rustle, whispering sound; (2) (AC) frightened, startled; (3) bored

(2) 矍矍 ..[jUe2jUe2], adj., (1) staring in surprise; (2) eager, anxious, spoiling for.

from: Lin Yutang Dictionary
at http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/Lexis/Lindict/banner_e.html

(3)婚媾... one who seeks her to be his wife.
from: Legge's I Ching translation

(4) TREASURES: cowry shells = endowment + sex.

 

[charly]

...
Spoons for me always smack of being given medicine. Maybe it's something like my Mum used to say : It may not taste nice but it will do you good. This is a mothers love in a tough love sort of sense. Being cruel to be kind. The liquid in the spoon may not be so good (and is sacrificed - swallowed) but the spoon stays as it was to be reused next time.
...

Hi, Mike:

I like your image of the SPOON as the STICK of AUTHORITY, always reusable, maybe tha's why terrible childs hate soup.

Please, see the attached image: Mafalda hates the soup, but the spoon remains without affliction.

This spoon reminds me the one used by Needham in his reconstruction of a compass. Maybe before the magnetic spoon, before the compass there were spoons and dishes used as divination tools. The spoon as a rolling needle pointing to a response, a sort of roulette.

In a book from diviners for diviners a possible message is:

Don't scare, don't be afflicted by the shock,
dynasties change but diviners remain.
​

Once defeated kings are not reusable but diviners, wise people, yes. Of course, diviners need some professional advice, some reminders, because in their job they risked their necks. Even they must swallow the soup.

Yours,

Charly

 

[charly]

...
Our first sexual energy was a combination of fear/excitement, shame and titillation until we experienced an unexplicable feeling of surrender that was so intense, so psychedelic, so unforgettable that our innocence to the way we were living life was literally exploded to a totally new dimension of awareness and personal growth ... the universe is never quite the same after that ‘first time’.

Janice:

Quite true, but maybe polemic. See yourself:

...Brynin found that the euphoria of first love can damage future relationships. "Remarkably, it seems that the secret to long-term happiness in a relationship is to skip a first relationship," said Brynin. "In an ideal world, you would wake up already in your second relationship."

From:
Why we can never recover from first love
Studies show intensity of young passion makes later relationships fail
The Observer, Sunday 18 January 2009
at:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2009/jan/18/relationships-love/print

I wonder, if we don't begin by the first, how could we do it?

Some scientists are crazy.

I prefer to continue living in the true world, I prefer this sample of «bad poetry»:

Herida la de tu boca,
que lastima sin dolor.
No tengo miedo al invierno
con tu recuerdo lleno de sol. (*)

​

Jaime Dávalos: Tonada del Viejo Amor.

could read it at: http://www.folkloredelnorte.com.ar/cancionero/rst/tonadadelviejoamor.html

(*) In barbaric english:

wound that of your mouth / that hurts without pain /
I don't scare the winter / with your memory full of sun​

With my best wishes,

Charly

 

[my_key]

HI Charly
The spoon and plate as early divination tools makes an interesting side show for this line. The stick of authority also brings to mind the "talking stick" concept. It invokes respect as it's the one constant in a circle of ever changing words and views.

Your Pin Yin posts always intrigue me. They do show the richness of the chinese language and symbolism within. This one looks to have been a difficult one for W/B - a lot of gaps needed to be filled in.
Here's another attempt at dot to dot.

51.6 -
Shock whispers in your ear making it's demands of you.
If you give it your attention it will bring fear and ominous outcomes.
If you keep it close by as a friend and don't allow it to take hold of you then you will be able to be true to yourself.
Knowing it's ways intimately like a wife or a lover allows you to be at peace with it because you speak it’s language.

Mike

 

[charly]

...Your Pin Yin posts always intrigue me...
...Shock whispers in your ear making it's demands of you... like a wife or a lover allows you to be at peace...

Mike:

I don't know if I understand you well:

• Pin: in english... peg, bolt, something like a needle, prick, itching ? (1)
• Yin: in chinese... shady, sexy ? (2)

In your image the SHOCK is female! I like it. But a WIFE / LOVER whispering in your ear doesn't allow you to be at peace, I believe.

Yours,

Charly

______________________________
(1) It reminds me the socratic GADFLY pricking the lazy and noble horse

In his famous dialogue, the Apology, which is a defense of the charges made on Socrates, he compares himself to a gadfly, "…. as upon a great noble horse which was somewhat sluggish because of its size and needed to be stirred up by a kind of gadfly." (Apology 30e)
from: http://www.oppapers.com/essays/Socrates/53574

(2)

[yin] 陰 ...

[as noun]
(1) The principle of [yin1] in 陰陽 [yin1yang2] philosophy...
(2) ... genitals of man or woman...
(3) ... north side of mountain; south side of river.
(4) ... back side of monuments...
(5) ... nether...
(6) ... shady side...

[as adjective]
(1) Minus, negative (electricty)...
(2) Female, quiescent...
(3) Negative in seal, photography...
(4) Rainy...
(5) Crafty, sinister...

From Lin Yutang Dictionary
at: http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/cgi-bin/agrep-lindict?query=%b3%b1&category=wholerecord

 

[my_key]

Hey Charly
I think it's my understanding of PIN YIN that is causing the confusion. My apologies.

In your image the SHOCK is female! I like it. But a WIFE / LOVER whispering in your ear doesn't allow you to be at peace, I believe.

Absolutely !!! I know exactly what you mean. Without getting too base here I think 51.6 is about hearing those temptresses whispers and rising above it.

Again I'm only throwing a few ideas around here....... but seeing as you raised the itching subject how about this for 51.6
The shock is all around you, it's all over you like a rash. If you scratch you know it'll only open the sores. Once you start scratching, wonderful ecstacy a momentary relief but the itching only comes back worse. You can’t stop scratching. It's all driving you mad. You know it's driving you mad and you use this to control your basic impulses - you live with the itching feeling and you have implemented a change in yourself. The itching feeling subsides and the pleasure you get from having resisted the temptation to scratch far outweighs the pleasure of scratching. You are receiving your rewards at a different level.

Mike

 

[ravenstar]

Janice:

Quite true, but maybe polemic. See yourself:



I wonder, if we don't begin by the first, how could we do it?

Some scientists are crazy.

I prefer to continue living in the true world, I prefer this sample of «bad poetry»:



With my best wishes,

Charly

Hi Charlie,

Well, I tend to agree with you, depending on how the 'first time' went. Some aren't so lucky for a euphoric explosion when mom or dad could walk in any moment or it's in dad's brand new car at the Drive-In!!

I think what I was trying to say is that we sense a new confidence in ourselves....it's like there's a quiet appreciation to the things around us and we savor the way the world looks through our 'new eyes'. It's like we're no longer hidden within ourselves anymore, something has stirred and awakened.

ravenstar

 

[rosada]

Mike - I really enjoyed your #130 post.
:bows:

 

[ravenstar]

Absolutely !!! I know exactly what you mean. Without getting too base here I think 51.6 is about hearing those temptresses whispers and rising above it.


Mike

Hi Mike,

I couldn't help but think of the Grail Myth and the question 'what was in the cup'. The Grail has been considered a mythic symbol of the deep feminine.

As I think more of my response to Charly, I can now see that the the first sip from the Grail was free. That first taste of ecstasy of our first adolescent love affair is naive and left unquestioned. But the surge of energy it created made us feel we could kick open doors to unseen possibilities. Our hearts flew, our minds reeled, the feet danced....and as I mentioned before we are never quite the same again.

But the 2nd taste is a bit more costly and so is the 3rd. It allures us into the unknown, the unfamiliar, it can ensnarl us into a deep pit if we aren't aware. And if we aren't aware, we want to taste more and the next sip transforms our old way of being. There's no turning back and we find ourselves in the depths of despair. Others around us react only to what we are feeling and projecting....their manner may come across as rude and coarse and we become more confused, upset at their reactions which creates a bitter resentment within us. We become so sensitive that we appear awkward to others and reactive to their verbal comments. We become overwhelmed and if we can't discipline ourselves to handle the situation we will encounter a greater number of personal confrontations with others. We are pushed and prodded beyond our capabilities which forces us to admit we have to admit our own powerlessness and find ourselves turning the solution over to a deeper source. When we admit we can no longer work the old mind, something inside us let's go. And in letting go, something beyond our ordinary awareness answers our prayers. We could call it God, Goddess, Spirit, the Force, Higher Power, Fate, or Destiny.......Jospeh Campbell described this experience as a stage in the archetypal Hero's Quest, which he called "Supernatural Aid."

Remember the Legend of the Fisher King? (I tried to find the original one on the internet and haven't found it) Just this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fisher_King

As the story goes (from what I learned), instead of marrying the maiden whose name was on the Grail, he fell under the spell of the Spellbinder. Her hypnotism and seduction had him believing she was the most beautiful woman in the world. As the story goes his lifeforce was drained from him. His will and soul was being threatened if he continued to follow her. Which he did. His soul became enveloped in a dense fog. As his flesh dried out and flaked, as the hair on his head dropped to the ground, and he became crippled, the Earth near the Grail Castle also began to die, turning to a parched reddish brown.

The spellbinder is known as the deceitful character of the world, under the guise of a radiant but immoral sorceress, who beguiled the Fisher King and soon became her willing prisoner, losing all sense of himself. His dreams became nightmares, with owls screeching through the night, with jackals tearing him to pieces and coyotes running away with his soul. . And though there are many bold knights in search of the Grail who knows what she has done to others, still desire her temptuous ways forgets his knightly vows and abandons his Quest – only to be betrayed by the Spellbinder who tells King Arthur that he is a phony, a fool in Knight’s clothing and a disgrace to the Round Table.

ravenstar

 

[my_key]

Mike - I really enjoyed your #130 post.
:bows:

Hi Rosada
You're welcome - I'm pleased you enjoyed it.

Hi Ravenstar

As I think more of my response to Charly, I can now see that the the first sip from the Grail was free. That first taste of ecstasy of our first adolescent love affair is naive and left unquestioned. But the surge of energy it created made us feel we could kick open doors to unseen possibilities. Our hearts flew, our minds reeled, the feet danced....and as I mentioned before we are never quite the same again.

But the 2nd taste is a bit more costly and so is the 3rd. It allures us into the unknown, the unfamiliar, it can ensnarl us into a deep pit if we aren't aware. And if we aren't aware, we want to taste more and the next sip transforms our old way of being. There's no turning back and we find ourselves in the depths of despair. Others around us react only to what we are feeling and projecting....their manner may come across as rude and coarse and we become more confused, upset at their reactions which creates a bitter resentment within us. We become so sensitive that we appear awkward to others and reactive to their verbal comments. We become overwhelmed and if we can't discipline ourselves to handle the situation we will encounter a greater number of personal confrontations with others. We are pushed and prodded beyond our capabilities which forces us to admit we have to admit our own powerlessness and find ourselves turning the solution over to a deeper source. When we admit we can no longer work the old mind, something inside us let's go. And in letting go, something beyond our ordinary awareness answers our prayers. We could call it God, Goddess, Spirit, the Force, Higher Power, Fate, or Destiny.......Jospeh Campbell described this experience as a stage in the archetypal Hero's Quest, which he called "Supernatural Aid."

Very nicely put and as usual you tell it so eloquently.
I really enjoyed your post on the Fisher King. It's not a story I was familiar with. Thank you for sharing it at this time.

Mike

 

[rosada]

"Shock brings ruin." He has not attained the middle.
Misfortune, but no blame. One is warned by the
fear for one's neighbor.

This line is related to the third, which is the comrade who has something to say.
The fifth line is the neighbor.
Here a weak line stands at the climax of shock and is therefore inherently not equal to it.
The shock threatens ruin as in an earthquake, thus the terrified gazing around.
Trying to undertake something under such conditions would lead to misfortune.
But if one takes warning from the experience of one's neighbor - in this case the fifth line - and remains calm, mistakes are avoided.
The third line, the comrade, is forced by the situation to move, hence cannot understand why the sixth line stays calm.
However, the difference in behavior is the result of difference in place.
Therefore one must be wholly independent in one's actions.
-Wilhelm

 

[ravenstar]

Hi Rosada
You're welcome - I'm pleased you enjoyed it.

Hi Ravenstar



Very nicely put and as usual you tell it so eloquently.
I really enjoyed your post on the Fisher King. It's not a story I was familiar with. Thank you for sharing it at this time.

Mike

Thanks Mike,

There is a wonderful book called "Archetypes Of the Zodiac" by Kathleen Burt. She attributes the Fisher King and Perceval the Knight to the sign of Aquarius. She claims the Castle of the Grail is the 'heaven that lies within'.....she also mentions Joseph Campbell in respect to Individual Realization which he claims are "people of integrity who adhere to their own truth."

She also mentions Jupiter is the esoteric ruler of Aquarius which adds kindness and compassion "to the high mental principles and scientific objectivty of Uranus."

She quotes from Jung, Alice Bailey, Joseph Campbell, Marie Louise von Franz and many, many more.

ravenstar

 

[chandoneam]

Hello All,

Forgive my tardy self for taking so long to get here -
I really know nothing of the I -Ching, however,
in it's true spirit, here I am, so...

I do not mean to sound arrogant, but I pulled this
card from an old mandala book, in conjunction with
a not so euclidian interpretation of space and, then,
the relative position of my "Cup" in "it" (space).

Having, I trust, been adequately obtuse it is also in
my "findings" that there is a relation of Chan to
chacne itself (no pun intended), perhaps as Fortune
deals the blows of thunder from both celestial hammer
and worldly club alike.

Which bring Chan back to channeling that capricious Pan,
both gate-keeper and Virgil alike - to stand and let pass
through ritual death those worthy of Fortune's Talent.

Left field,

D4

 

[lucuma]

I know this thread is 14 years old, but if you are still around, @charly , I just want to say that I enjoyed your contributions so much.

Beautiful poetry and references from South American culture along with the informed Chinese translations.

I also know a song by J. Dávalos, it is about a first son who is in love and asks his beloved to run away with him.


Yo t'hei dicho nos casimos,
vos diciendo que tal vez;
sería bueno que probimos
m'a ver eso qué tal es.

Te propongo sirviñaco,
si tus tatas dan lugar
p'a l'alzada del tabaco
vámonos a trabajar.

T'hei comprarollita nueva,
en la feria 'e Sumalao,
es cuestión de hacer la prueba
de vivirnos amañaos.

Y si tus tatas se enteran,
ya tendrán consolación,
que todas las cosas tienen
con el tiempo la ocasión.

Y si Dios nos da un changuito
a mí no me ha de faltar
voluntad pa andar juntitos
ni valor p'a trabajar.

Te propongo como seña
pa' saber si me querís
cuando vas a juntar leña
sílbame como perdiz.


I’ve told you to get married
You’ve said “maybe…
It’d be good if we try,
Let’s see how that is.”

I propose ‘sirviñaco’ (partnering)
And if your ‘Tatas’ (parents) approve
Up to the tobacco plantations
Should we go to work.

I will buy you a new cooking pot
At the Sumalao fair
It’s just a matter of trying
To live together, how that is.

And if your parents find out
They will get consolation
As everything in the world
Has its own time and place.

And if God gives us a son
I will not miss
The will to be together
Nor the strength to work.

I propose you make a sign
So I know you love me back
When you go gathering wood
Whistle like a small bird.


Sorry for the rough translation.

Lucuma