56.5 - help!

[maremaria]

LI is the pheasant.
A stranger in a strange land , what he lacks is clarity of what the rules, habits and generally what is accepted and what is not in this new situation.
What if we assume that “shooting a arrow” it’s making an effort. The arrow could be lost (no success) or not (success). If he gains clarity of the appropriate way to behave ( hit the pheasant) he can be acknowledged and accepted from the others. This is why, maybe, he get praised and also a place in the community

Just a thought…..

 

[charly]

... If he gains clarity of the appropriate way to behave ( hit the pheasant) he can be acknowledged and accepted from the others...

María:

You're right, the key is the appropriate way to behave, maybe hitting the pheasant or maybe not doing it.

I believe the first means DEXTERITY, the second WISENESS, we can take one or another according to the context of the consult or according our own temperament.yours,

Charly

 

[fkegan]

Taoist perspective upon the timing of line 5 hex 56

LI is the pheasant.
A stranger in a strange land , what he lacks is clarity of what the rules, habits and generally what is accepted and what is not in this new situation.
What if we assume that “shooting a arrow” it’s making an effort. The arrow could be lost (no success) or not (success). If he gains clarity of the appropriate way to behave ( hit the pheasant) he can be acknowledged and accepted from the others. This is why, maybe, he get praised and also a place in the community

Just a thought…..

Maria--
That would be a Confucian interpretation overall. However, this hexagram is the timing of the Traveler, wanderer, Just Passing [through] who has a different Tao.

In Taoist perspective this is not the time to behave like the local folks. From Gia-Fu's translation agreeing with Charly that the arrow he shot at the pheasant is lost and no pheasant was caught to make the standard proper gift. HOWEVER, this is the timing of Just Passing, and the Traveler's style works in line 5, he just keeps on trucking, taking a shot at every opportunity, if it doesn't succeed he just moves along, and eventually with this timing it works, he finds his slot and gets success.

Frank

 

[hilary]

So the idea is something like -
'Shooting at a pheasant [but missing],
One arrow is lost.
In the end [not on this occasion, but at the right moment] this means praise and a mandate.'
?

Does anyone have an experience of this line working out this way?

 

[meng]

So the idea is something like -
'Shooting at a pheasant [but missing],
One arrow is lost.
In the end [not on this occasion, but at the right moment] this means praise and a mandate.'
?

Does anyone have an experience of this line working out this way?

Makes no sense to me, unless it's meant that the arrow he used to shoot the pheasant with is sacrificed or lost in the process, which does occasionally happen with bow hunting.

 

[fkegan]

The timing of the Crown of Just Passing--

It is a very special timing, one where the traveler in his rootless style succeeds big, not for the value of the pheasant he bags but for this style of constantly moving on finding eventually great achievement. Several of us jumped into the wording from our oracle experience that his line means you swing by and catch the brass ring.

However, following Charly's notes that the translation shouldn't collapse the several lines into a single image (and getting around to look up Gia-Fu's Taoist take upon the translation) emphasizes the same oracle result of great timing for the traveler who just in this extra special timing (just the 5th line moving)-- where rootless and structureless who is just now developing (focusing upon) an overall structure that fits his character and agrees with the timing, so turning this time into hex 33 Flight where the timing leaves the old roots and structures behind and soars into the heavens and the Next.

"SHOOTING A PHEASANT. FIRST SHOT LOST. IN THE END, FAME AND REWARD. Perseverance brings friends and success." Gia-Fu Feng hex 56 line 5.

Frank

 

[meng]

Is it just me or is this one of the fuzziest threads in Clarity history? Are we still searching for the missing arrow, and has anyone figured out how losing an arrow and/or missing a shot at a pheasant wins this sojourner an assignment?

None of this confusion exists in LiSe's 56.5: "He shoots a pheasant, dead with one arrow. In the end praise and an assignment."

Seems straight forward. I think the "lost arrow" must a translation error of some kind. Bradford uses lost arrow, too. Maybe Harmen would offer his input? Are we searching for red herring?

 

[meng]

musing... wonder if that might have been vernacular for "He's a straight shooter; let's hire him."

 

[Sparhawk]

musing... wonder if that might have been vernacular for "He's a straight shooter; let's hire him."

I don't think so, but I agree with you that the text can be ambiguous. Perhaps LiSe can explain the reasoning behind her translation of the line, but, if we take the received text, with the received parsing, the arrow is lost...

六五 射雉。一矢亡。終以譽命。
liu4 wu3 she4 zhi4 yi1 shi3 wang2 zhong1 yi3 yu4 ming4



​

It is one of those instances where the parsing can really, really change the meaning of the sentence.

 

[Sparhawk]

Mind you, the text says that "one arrow was lost" but it doesn't say how many arrows were shot. On the other hand, I don't think any pheasant will stick around for a hunter's second chance...

 

[Sparhawk]

BTW, wang2 also means "dead" and I think I can discern LiSe's reasoning. However, what takes priority in the translation of the sentence? The possibility that the arrow missed the target and was lost, or that it did take the pheasant with it?

 

[meng]

Maybe if I shoot a pheasant for coyote she'll answer.

 

[meng]

Meanwhile, who can solve the riddle of the award for the missed one arrow? I'm really curious now.

 

[meng]

BTW, wang2 also means "dead" and I think I can discern LiSe's reasoning. However, what takes priority in the translation of the sentence? The possibility that the arrow missed the target and was lost, or that it did take the pheasant with it?

Um, whichever makes sense?

Arrows, especially those arrowheads used for birds, have a simple pointed tip, and it's not uncommon for them to shoot right through a large bird (i.e. wild turkey), and get lost in the wooded cover.

 

[heylise]

A bad hunter can hunt, he will bring home game sometimes, but it will not bring him great praise. Some are admired for their hunting skills, and among those there are the good ones and the excellent ones.

A one-shot-kill is a sign of a good hunter and sportsman. Bringing a pheasant as a gift which was killed with just one shot is more than a gift, it is also a token of skills. It is how I saw this line, but I don't know if this was actually a way to say 'one-shot-kill' in Chinese.

And Bruce thanks for your very beautiful pheasant. Beautiful shot!! And it didn't kill it. Too bad they had no camera's yet back then.

 

[Sparhawk]

Um, whichever makes sense?

Arrows, especially those arrowheads used for birds, have a simple pointed tip, and it's not uncommon for them to shoot right through a large bird (i.e. wild turkey), and get lost in the wooded cover.

Ha... An "all of the above" option. Yes, I suppose it is possible. I've seen them go right through a deer. A pheasant is a smallish bird.

 

[meng]

Ha... An "all of the above" option. Yes, I suppose it is possible. I've seen them go right through a deer. A pheasant is a smallish bird.

Assuming the arrow was intended to be written as lost, it would have been incidental to the - as LiSe put it - one-shot-kill. I, as yet, don't believe the word was meant to be 'lost', but 'dead'.

 

[heylise]

Meng: "He's a straight shooter; let's hire him."

Even in these times, when shooting is not an everyday job anymore, expressions like this are clear to everyone.

I think a lot of Yi is said in this way, expressions which are open for many uses. Even a grandma can use it, even if she never saw a gun close by, for a situation in her own life.

LiSe

 

[Sparhawk]

Assuming the arrow was intended to be written as lost, it would have been incidental to the - as LiSe put it - one-shot-kill. I, as yet, don't believe the word was meant to be 'lost', but 'dead'.

Some food for thought. I was just counting the occurrences of 亡 in the text. It occurs 23 times:

11.2 ---> 朋亡
12.5 (two times: 九五 休否。大人吉。其亡其亡。繫于苞桑。)
31.4 悔亡
32.2 悔亡
34.4 悔亡
35.3 悔亡
35.5 悔亡
37.1 悔亡
38.1 悔亡
38.5 悔亡
43.4 悔亡
45.5 悔亡
49.0 悔亡
49.4 悔亡
52.5 悔亡
56.5 ---> 一矢亡
57.4 悔亡
57.5 悔亡
58.2 悔亡
59.2 悔亡
60.6 悔亡
61.4 ---> 馬匹亡
64.4 悔亡

​

The characters 悔亡 is what is usually translated as "regret vanishes". 61.4 is where the horse's mate or teammate disappears. 11.2 is translated as 'not abandoning his comrades' (Blofeld) This leaves the interesting 12.5, where Wilhelm translates as " "What if it should fail, what if it should fail?" and Legge as "We may perish! We may perish!"

 

[fkegan]

Expected linear logic or unexpected Yi insight?

Is it just me or is this one of the fuzziest threads in Clarity history? Are we still searching for the missing arrow, and has anyone figured out how losing an arrow and/or missing a shot at a pheasant wins this sojourner an assignment?

None of this confusion exists in LiSe's 56.5: "He shoots a pheasant, dead with one arrow. In the end praise and an assignment."

Seems straight forward. I think the "lost arrow" must a translation error of some kind. Bradford uses lost arrow, too. Maybe Harmen would offer his input? Are we searching for red herring?

"Fuzziest" is a good choice of superlative reminds one of Kelso's Fuzzy Thinking where he details his problems getting US Math Establishment to accept simple computer chip logic over their misapplication of Aristotle--until Japanese consumer products using his logic in their cheap chips drove US cameras, etc into oblivion.

56.5 is clearly an example of excellent timing. Is it a statement of conservative tradition fulfilled by personal excellence or that sometimes, when the timing is just right, the rootless traveler's style eventually wins success despite not having traditional skills?

Is the meaning contained in the text or in the hexagram lines and sequence?

The translation of the words seems remarkably consistent, even Wilhelm recognizes the words can be read as "An arrow is lost" so it is a semantics problem not a translation error. All agree the three thoughts are:

• Shoot pheasant.
• Arrow lost.
• In the end this brings praise and reward.

The open question is how does one explain the syllogism?

If the bird is killed and drops to the ground, who cares if it still has an arrow in it? The lines only have meaning if it describes shooting at the pheasant but the arrow is lost and going back to Charly's remarks, the pheasant flies away.

This leaves the question, How does the traveler succeed by missing the pheasant with his arrow? It could be a magic pheasant who appreciates the gesture--but how does that relate to the hexagram timing of Just Passing or the Traveler? That would be the pheasant making for success, not the crown of the timing of the traveler.

If a gift of the pheasant is the ONLY way to succeed, then the traveler would have to get a pheasant somehow. However, if timing is everything, even in the land of pheasant gifts for local success, then somehow this is the Crown of this timing, the ruler of the hexagram that by its nature and expression makes for success.

The line is an open Yin as the hexagram ruler, seen in Wilhelm Book III as the traveler himself though Wilhelm sees his success must come from some Yang line nearby. Structurally, this is the fifth line place of mind or overall organization which is developing out of the background to become the focus of this timing process.

The Traveler is putting together his plan of development while still maintaining the same character. Eventually, this effort and being true to himself succeeds. There is that bit in the final line..."In the End this brings..." If the Traveler killed the pheasant to achieve his success, wouldn't that come quicker? Why would the line say that none of this comes immediately after the interaction with the pheasant, either magical, bagged or missed?

The traveler is true to his character which doesn't stay around long enough to establish local connections or even aim well enough to hit the pheasant; however being true to his character long enough in his own special situation and timing, eventually finds somewhere that this is appreciated.

Or things must be as expected, and anything that doesn't fit is cut till it does.

Luis--
Nice to see the dragon back, though I was delighted with the Argentine meat chart. Brought back memories of my stay in Rosario back in '63 when bife de lomo was my standard fare--once I was served a very fancy meal with chicken drumsticks, the most expensive meat, which was nothing special to an American. Their cheapest dish--bife de lomo-- we call fillet mignon-- wonders of the economics of Pampas grazing beef. Never did figure out why lomo wasn't appreciated by the locals. Sometimes a traveler succeeds by not fitting into the local system.

Frank

 

[Sparhawk]

Luis--
Nice to see the dragon back, though I was delighted with the Argentine meat chart. Brought back memories of my stay in Rosario back in '63 when bife de lomo was my standard fare--once I was served a very fancy meal with chicken drumsticks, the most expensive meat, which was nothing special to an American. Their cheapest dish--bife de lomo-- we call fillet mignon-- wonders of the economics of Pampas grazing beef. Never did figure out why lomo wasn't appreciated by the locals. Sometimes a traveler succeeds by not fitting into the local system.

Frank

Because is too lean!! Keep the fat on my beef, I say. We love our cholesterol. And yes, chicken is THE Expensive Meat of the land... Go figure...

 

[Sparhawk]

Of course, Wilhelm agrees with the notion of hitting and dropping the bird. I wonder if, within the context of the line, the emphasis of the sentence is on the arrow and not on the deed of shooting at the pheasant. Arrows, apart from their usual utilization in war and hunting, were used as a sort of currency. I will quote from this article I have:

• Some Remarks on Arrows in the Ancient Chinese Legal Process, by Chauncey S. Goodrich

First it will be remembered that a bundle of
arrows has been represented as playing a significant
role in the procedure whereby a plaintiff
brought suit in ancient times. Such a bundle is
said to have been placed before the king or prince,
or his appropriate officer, acting as judge. The
accused person indicated his intention to contest
the action by presenting a similar bundle of arrows.
The failure of the accused to submit arrows to
match those of the plaintiff was taken as an
acknowledgment of guilt, according to one commentator.

...

For present purposes, the point to be noted lies
in the second sentence of the translation above:
the plaintiff (it would appear) had to deposit a
bundle of arrows, probably with certain judicial
functionaries, before lodging a legal complaint.
This requirement was evidently envisaged as a
means of discouraging the lodging of legal
charges; perhaps, then, the arrows served as an
earnest of good faith, liable to forfeit if the charge
proved unwarranted. A similar precaution was
employed in the case of the trial proper, which
followed the statement of charges, except that in
this case it was the specified amount of metal
which served as earnest money or bond.

​

Perhaps the meaning rest on the frugality of the hunter, hitting the pheasant or not, and why he's compensated at the end.

 

[hilary]

Thanks for the information on arrows passing right through - it's interesting, in a gory kind of way. I'd always assumed that if you'd got the pheasant, you'd also got the arrow.

 

[Sparhawk]

Thanks for the information on arrows passing right through - it's interesting, in a gory kind of way. I'd always assumed that if you'd got the pheasant, you'd also got the arrow.

Arrows are mean and effective weapons. Depending on the distance and the bow, they can go through pray and warriors like slicing paper. Forget about what you see in the movies...

 

[jesed]

When the "omen" or "pronostication" of the line includes "in the end" fortune comes... that implies a) a process of change from unfortunate present to fortunate outcoming; or b) a good outcoming despite the present dificulties

What can be unfortunate about shooting your goal with one shot?
What can be unfortunate about losing you arrow?
Which one makes more sense, at this light?

In this context... the people who receive prise despite losing his arrow IS LIKE a strager wanderer who get an offical job. The outcome is much better that whay normally you could expect from your present circumstances

Best

 

[meng]

Some food for thought. I was just counting the occurrences of 亡 in the text. It occurs 23 times:

11.2 ---> 朋亡
12.5 (two times: 九五 休否。大人吉。其亡其亡。繫于苞桑。)
31.4 悔亡
32.2 悔亡
34.4 悔亡
35.3 悔亡
35.5 悔亡
37.1 悔亡
38.1 悔亡
38.5 悔亡
43.4 悔亡
45.5 悔亡
49.0 悔亡
49.4 悔亡
52.5 悔亡
56.5 ---> 一矢亡
57.4 悔亡
57.5 悔亡
58.2 悔亡
59.2 悔亡
60.6 悔亡
61.4 ---> 馬匹亡
64.4 悔亡

​

The characters 悔亡 is what is usually translated as "regret vanishes". 61.4 is where the horse's mate or teammate disappears. 11.2 is translated as 'not abandoning his comrades' (Blofeld) This leaves the interesting 12.5, where Wilhelm translates as " "What if it should fail, what if it should fail?" and Legge as "We may perish! We may perish!"

Yes, it is interesting. Perhaps the way we might call a dead person as being "gone" or "passed" or "missing"?

Frank, I agree, that timing (or as I'm fond of calling him, Ti Ming) may play a key role, in that as with the tiger of the 8.5 hunt, the game voluntarily offers itself to the hunter, and thereby sanctifies it as a mandate of heaven. That would make the gift something quite special, and possibly make the pheasant magical. Thanks for pointing that out.

 

[Sparhawk]

What can be unfortunate about shooting your goal with one shot?
What can be unfortunate about losing you arrow?
Which one makes more sense, at this light?

Yes, that's what I was thinking. Losing something that can be scarce would be a logical timeline to a fortunate outcome; it goes from negative to positive.

 

[fkegan]

Not arrow, but 'in the end' at issue

Eventually arrow heads tended to be the best metal available (small quantity needed and better composition made for better edge which was a big deal or why the arrow could pass clear through its target). Making fine steel is easier in a batch process crucible than in a major mill, though the Chinese had industrial iron works set up in Borneo while Europe was enjoying their Dark Ages. Would make them equivalent to coins for meeting the bar of a law suit (US. had similar requirements to make oppression by the rich easier and justice to the poor through the courts impossible). But what material was standard for arrow heads in Shang days?
"I wonder if, within the context of the line, the emphasis of the sentence is on the arrow and not on the deed of shooting at the pheasant."
If the arrow is seen as valuable, then the traveler is a big spender... but still has nothing to show for his loss.

There still is the logical issue: If the focus is upon the arrow or the excellence of the traveler's marksmanship with a single arrow...then why is the success of his results noted "in the end"? This implies something else eventually brings our erstwhile traveler to his good end.

There is the technical issue too--as noted earlier on this thread--pheasant is one of the images associated with trigram Li, which when this line moves--Li disappears into Ch'ien heaven or sunshine. So, that implies the pheasant (arrow-bird as also noted earlier) is lost though the line as ruler of the hexagram is eventually successful. The moving yin line seen as the body of its image as a pheasant is shot with an arrow, filling the empty space in the middle of the line, and the pheasant disappears and the arrow is lost.

So, how this plucky moving Yin line gets himself successful is a separate matter from either the arrow or its loss or the pheasant. He just has the right timing and in his travels eventually he finds an opportunity for success. The whole scenario of the upper trigram Li being a pheasant that disappears into the sky or sunshine is a meditation upon the moving line and how its moving consolidates the process of finding the traveler his next situation in life.

US fillet is corn fed like all our beef and thus marbled. In Argentina only the chickens got grain, though I have never heard of anyone liking marbled chicken meat. I still like lean beef myself, but at least the mystery is solved--Lomo for us all--

Frank

 

[charly]

When the "omen" or "pronostication" of the line includes "in the end" fortune comes... that implies a) a process of change from unfortunate present to fortunate outcoming; or b) a good outcoming despite the present dificulties

Jesed:

Parallelism and contrast are the main rethorics in the chinese text. I agree with you that the contrast may be the key: some unexpected results.

What can be unfortunate about shooting your goal with one shot?
What can be unfortunate about losing you arrow?
Which one makes more sense, at this light?

You're exploring the premises. I can imagine some answers: maybe we enjoy making more than one shot over the same prey, maybe we prefer to continue using our arrow, even more if it's the only one that we have.

The unfortunate is clear, but what about the results? Another question, are there any possibility with WANG meaning TO DIE?

Some keys:

• maybe One-Arrow is a descriptive name as it occurs in folktale characters,
• maybe Shot-Pheasant is a descriptive name too

[When] Shooting [a] pheasant one arrow [is] lost → sintactically and semantically correct
[When] Shooting [a] pheasant one arrow died → semantically INCORRECT, arrows cann't die.

but what if it's a descriptive name?

SHOT-PHEASANT [and] ONE-ARROW DIED. → sintactically and semantically correct

Maybe:

Shot-Pheasant is the female lover. (1) (2)
One-Arrow is the male lover. (3)

Chinese men had been told from long ago that to restrain emissions during intercourse is good for health and longevity. Restraining was a rule.

But without children they cann't attain respectable positions. Then the rule had exceptions.

Maybe like in a russian roulette, the lover had a quiver for six arrows, but only one arrow for shooting. When used, both lovers temporarily die.

Does it make some sense with WANDERERS?

Yours,

Charly

________________________
(1) 射she, to shoot means in chinese the same as in english.
(2) 雉zhi means pheasant, another common name for pheasants is 鸡 ji ,fowl, that sometimes is used to mean «woman».
(3) «arrows» and «number» one are wide spread as symbols of male sex.

 

[fkegan]

How much packed into one little line judgment?

At times like these I feel like Charley Brown seeing the horsie in the clouds.

The line has a simple narrative option of shoot arrow, get pheasant, in the end get fame and job. But the notion of the arrow being lost keeps poking through. Then the wanderer takes a shot at the pheasant, but is too fascinated with wandering to find his arrow or take the pheasant, but since he is in the ruling position of the hexagram he still eventually finds success.

Finally, there is just the pure spectacle of the symbolism--li with a changing middle line is a pheasant with an arrow in it, and then just sunshine when it changes to Yang---with the success of the ruling line place being without connection to anything--it just happens.

Now it is an entire soap opera of death and sex and extra characters all over. Guess that would explain the eventual success since it turns out the wanderer is really a prince who got lost or was under a magic spell. We Charley Brown type old school wanderers don't see the narrative details that well but its as good a story as any of the others.

However, Charly,
I do thank you for the nugget

Chinese men had been told from long ago that to restrain emissions during intercourse is good for health and longevity. Restraining was a rule. But without children they can't attain respectable positions. Then the rule had exceptions.

.
I have been wrestling with the set of 10 hexagrams from hex 31 to 40, which suggested hex 39 (cf. thread on that hex close by) was all about maximizing sexual drive without release and only the final hexagram of the set 40 achieved orgasm. Now you supply the Chinese rationale for highlighting this aspect of wetness frozen on top of the hard mountain--that was indeed a major Chinese cultural practice, though only hex 40 could complete the set of the family. Very cool Incidentally, I suspect the old rule was a substitute for condoms. Most traditional sayings are ultimately such practical details said as omens and good luck charms.

And then there is the opposite of the extra soap opera characters: The sun rising above the mountain top creates for just a moment the image of a crown of fire joining mountain and heaven in one integrated expression of ultimate awesome display. This line is just the part of the sun rising behind a tall mountain that gets to seem it is a brilliant fire on the rocky mountain top which is the hole-in-one of photos, and achieving success for a long time although a moment later, there is just sun in heaven and the mountain stuck far away on the ground.

Frank