58.2

[ginnie]

Who has not gotten stuck because the texts don't at all agree with each other. I'll take 58.2 as a good example:

Wu Wei: You are tempted by a friend or associate with pleasures that would be inappropriate for you. Fortunately, you are strong enough to remain true to your principles and sincere enough in your attitude to convey that to those who would lead you astray, so all remorse disappears. Good fortune.

Boardman's concise W/B: One is often in the company of inferior people, in whose company one is tempted by pleasures inappropriate for the superior man. To participate in such low pleasures will bring remorse. It is by trusting oneself, by not permitting one's will to swerve, by one's sincerity towards others, that one finds respect. Then, even dubious companions will not venture to proffer base pleasures.

Now for the other side of the coin:

Karcher: Open yourself to this influence. It will open a whole new world. Reach out. The Way is open. Old frustrations and sorrows will simply vanish.

Titania Hardie: There is cause for joy and celebration. You have found friends who are at your level of high intelligence and sensitivity. All temptations and distractions can be set aside, and you can find happiness and personal fulfillment without envy or frustration.

The words of the IC Concordance simply seem to say: Being open to joy will lead to the experience of meaning; favorable; propitious; appropriate. This is a trustworthy purpose.

Here is Legge: Shows the pleasure arising from (inward) sincerity. There will be good fortune. Occasion for repentance will disappear.

The Legge is the most subtle, I think. It implies that the experience of being delighted comes from within.

Would someone who knows more about the history of the IC care to comment on where all the words/concepts about low pleasures and dubious companions came from?

If anyone has personal experiences of this line, I'd love to hear about them, too!

 

[heylise]

No idea. Legge is the one most true to what the Chinese text says. "Sincere exchange, auspicious. Regret goes away."
"Sincere" is fu, the 'truth' in Zhong Fu, the name of 61.

Seems to me most of all a question of fantasy of the interpreter. It is why I want to know the original meaning, an 'austere' translation. Ritsema is in that respect a good one, Wilhelm, Blofeld, Rutt, Wu Jing-Nuan, Cleary, Lynn... thinking.. There are some more. Not that many.

 

[heylise]

Get Hilary's I Ching when it finally gets printed! Good one with great interpretations.

 

[Sparhawk]

No idea. Legge is the one most true to what the Chinese text says. "Sincere exchange, auspicious. Regret goes away."
"Sincere" is fu, the 'truth' in Zhong Fu, the name of 61.

To expand a little, a good reading about fu 孚 can be found here.

 

[ginnie]

From the above link: If there is no fu in you or the person(s) involved, it is better to reconsider your plans and think about your motivations and intentions. Fu is a quality that is essential when you work with other people. Without it, cooperation can be pretty tough.

Maybe fu is when you grasp what comes through that hole in the middle of H61. You capture it. Or it allows itself to be grasped by you.

Then you apply it.

Then people are amazed.

 

[ginnie]

Dang it all!

About 10-12 years ago I did not go on a long trip to see some people because I didn't want to get stuck alone among dubious companions tempting me to low pleasures.

Now I think the 'low pleasures,' if indeed there were any, could have been eating too much pizza, because probably nobody there knew how to cook!!!

Yes, thank you, Heylise: Less verbiage; less confusion.

 

[heylise]

LOL.
Pizzapleasures.

 

[justin farrell]

I Ching Translations

It is why I want to know the original meaning, an 'austere' translation.

It's quite illuminating getting to know the meaning of each character of the I Ching. When different translations appear to say something quite different about a hexagram or line, I have found it refreshing getting to the actual source.

Justin
I Ching Readings Journal (Software)

 

[seethis]

58.2 seems to suggest not to get carried away with fantasies (lower companions) but to remain grounded in reality of a situation (higher companions). It appears to me that the Omen is a positive one is able to transcent the lower and as a result captures the higher which leads to regret disappearing. True (sincere) joyfulness is rooted in the fact that one is able to trust ones own will. I don't this line can be interpreted as a confirmation that someone loves you but only that one creates an optimum of self reliance (sincerity) in oneself which allows for others to relate positively.

 

[charly]

58.2 ... It appears to me that the Omen is a positive one is able to transcent the lower and as a result captures the higher which leads to regret disappearing. True (sincere) joyfulness is rooted in the fact that one is able to trust ones own will...

Hi, SeeThis:

I always believed that the key would reside more in the character DUI (Joy, the little daughter) than in the character FU (trust / to capture).

Now, reading your post I saw that in both characters there is the female symbol UP and the male symbol DOWN:

孚 FU = HAND over SON (or maybe a LAMB), ♀ / ♂
兌 DUI = two curved lines meaning OPENING (similar to the number eight) over ELDER BROTER, ♀ / ♂

Don't you believe that the sexual imagery is stricking?

Of course, a good omen.


Yours,

Charly

 

[bradford]

Nobody has mentioned Following, the Zhi Gua, as being important to understanding this line. If we are "following our bliss" we are trusting joy to lead us in the right direction, with good feelings to tell us that we are on the right path. This is also a theme in the Fan Yao, where the innocence is more complete and more problematic.
To an extent, evolution has given us these "good feelings" to suggest successful approaches to life's situations, but it's only an approximation, not a guarantee of success. Life is a learning curve and there will be lessons to learn in moving this way, and bruises and scars to collect, but we have to live and learn and this at least is a path with heart. Hence promising, while "regrets pass".

 

[ginnie]

To an extent, evolution has given us these "good feelings" to suggest successful approaches to life's situations, but it's only an approximation, not a guarantee of success. Life is a learning curve and there will be lessons to learn in moving this way, and bruises and scars to collect, but we have to live and learn and this at least is a path with heart. Hence promising, while "regrets pass".

Also with hexagram 54 the 'young maiden' leaps to follow, but the associated text is often filled with omens of misfortune. Why is following one's bliss the thing to do in one instance but not in the other?

It is said that in hexagram 54, one's interests are not considered. But isn't that looking at the question from someone else's point of view, not one's own?

Well, I guess it all comes out in the wash later with hexagram 54. If we have any choice in the matter at all, we are cautioned to pause and consider the end in the beginning.

Sometimes I get hexagram 54 when I'm physically ill, asking about buying a new computer, or asking about joining a group in which I would be a subordinate or younger woman -- situations or forces over which I have little control.

I don't think I've ever really gotten 58.2 unless it had to do with just having fun or taking a more joyful, lighter approach.

 

[rodaki]

there is this clip that made me think of 58.2 when I first saw it and although it is a bit corny and silly (and in fact not spontaneous at all, I don't know if they added the background people later or it was all choreographed from the beginning) it still made me smile . . aw well . .


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_S0T7cma_U&feature=related

 

[cesca]

there is this clip that made me think of 58.2 when I first saw it and although it is a bit corny and silly (and in fact not spontaneous at all, I don't know if they added the background people later or it was all choreographed from the beginning) it still made me smile . . aw well . .


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_S0T7cma_U&feature=related

Fan Yao: 17.2 Bound to the little child, Giving up one of maturity

 

[ginnie]

Wonderful video. It does make one wonder how it was assembled. Actually, I'm thinking of taking up the hula hoop. The hula hoop was around in the 1950s, then died out. But when I was out in a recreation area last week I saw a young woman doing the hula hoop. Maybe it's better than belly dancing. Usually belly dancing is done in a group of all women -- a harem -- but the hula hoop can be done solo or with anyone at any time.

The hula hoop is seeming very 58.2ish to me at the present time.

 

[rodaki]

Fan Yao: 17.2 Bound to the little child, Giving up one of maturity

yup!

I love the hula hoop idea!

funny, this morning and because of this thread I got reminded of another clip abt remembering the joys of childish movement . .

where Phoebe likes to run as when she was a kid

and then this afternoon, while talking to a friend, I found myself telling her abt Feldenkrais, which is based on the healing and learning generated from the movements we made as infants learning to walk (here's a link with clips for those who might not know what I'm talking about)
and in a way all these (hula hoop included of course!!) are all variations of the same 'follow the inner child/bliss' idea




(ps: not trying to promote the specific Feldenkrais site but I found that page especially useful in getting a better idea about it)

 

[charly]

there is this clip that made me think of 58.2 when I first saw it and although it is a bit corny and silly (and in fact not spontaneous at all, I don't know if they added the background people later or it was all choreographed from the beginning) it still made me smile . . aw well . . [/url]

Hi, Little Wheel:

Pretty and much associated with 58.2 no matters the artificial.

Here choreography is but a way of expression without second intentions.

58 second line says:

孚兌‧吉‧悔亡‧
fu dui ji hui wang

RELIABLE JOY, LUCKY. REGRET VANISHES.
Joy that inspires confidence makes any objection disappear.
​

The minor image says:

孚兌之吉‧信志也‧
fu dui zhi ji xin zhi ye

RELIABLE JOY'S LUCK: BELIEVABLE INTENTION, YEAH! (1)
[the] lucky of reliable joy [relies on the] believable intention

​

The girl's JOY is reliable because there are not visible issues of second intentions → RELIABLE JOY.

What choreography says is that JOY is CONTAGIOUS (does W/B say INFECTIOUS?) and passes from the girl to the adults, for whom to behave like children results no regretable.

JOY, if reliable, leads to more JOY. That's why the guy is smiling:

Dui oracle bone character
From: Sears' Chineseetymology.
http://www.chineseetymology.org/Cha...aspx?characterInput=兌&submitButton1=Etymology

Don't look for deep philosophy, joy if looking false leads to suspicion. Not a matter of truth, a matter of belief: information controls the conduct.


All the best,

Charly



___________________________
(1) I know, I know, but never can resist.

 

[charly]

... variations of the same 'follow the inner child/bliss' idea
...

孚 fu = HAND + SON = BE GENTLE WITH YOUR [INNER] CHILD.

Ch.

 

[rodaki]

Hi, Little Wheel

hi Charly