58. Tui / The Joyous, Lake

[charly]

...
Another perspective - 兌亨。利貞。 - dui heng li zhen. Hexagram 1 says 元亨利貞 - yuan heng li zhen. So dui is in the place of yuan - sublimity, or source, beginnings ... The substitution makes dui look to me like a special kind of yuan.

Hilary:

Your substitution makes me remind the Bible, see St. John (1).

H._1: 元亨利貞 - yuan heng li zhen.
H.58: 兌亨利貞 - dui heng li zhen.

元 = 兌

In words: IN THE BEGINING WAS JOY, or maybe, JOY IS ONLY A BEGINING.


Joy came almost immediately after YIN & YANG, see Genesis(2).

Yours,

Charly

____________________________
(1) John 1:1(KJV): «In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.»

(1) Genesis1(KJV):
«1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. 3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. 5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.»

«6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. 7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. 8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.»

 

[charly]

58 Da Xiang / Great Image:

Legge translated 澤 as MARSH instead of LAKE.

麗澤，兌；君子以朋友講習。

... (Two symbols representing) the waters of a marsh, one over the other, form Dui. The superior man, in accordance with this, (encourages) the conversation of friends and (the stimulus of) their (common) practice.
Legge

麗 lì: ​beautiful / elegant ; fine / maginificent // with man added 儷 a pair / a couple / husband and wife
澤 zé​: place where water gathers / marsh // grace / favors / kindness // without water radical 睾 swamp / marsh // high / tall / broad / vast // testicles / balls [CJKV-English Dictionary]
兌 duì​: to cash / to barter / gifts interchange // joy /
君子 jūn​zi​: nobleman / person of noble character
以 yǐ: ​to use / according to / so as to / in order to / by / with / because
朋友 péng​you​: friend /
講 jiǎng: ​to speak / to explain / a speech / a lecture /
習 xí​: to practice / to study / habit /

Maybe I have not an accurate text, but does anybody see where the chinese text says «one over the other»?

What sort of problem had Legge for for say «two symbols» instead of beautiful marsh or a pair of marshes?

Charly

 

[fkegan]

Hi Charly,

Perhaps you could discuss more the elements in ze and how it gets from place where waters gather (which I always take to mean whatever is lowest level of local topography, either marsh, lake or sea level depending upon scale of perspective) to the other meanings.
I can see how it might be testicles as they are famous for descending to the lowest level of the torso in the evolutionary transition from the chicken to the human, but I don't quite see that spelled out in the character or its elements.

Best Regards,

Frank

 

[charly]

... Perhaps you could discuss more the elements in ze and how it gets from place where waters gather ... to the other meanings.
...

Hi, Frank:

I haven't the little idea. I believe that adding the radical WATER, some disreputable meanings disappear, making the character more specific, but retaining the sense of LOWER PLACES.

The word YIN is used not only for the FEMALE PRINCIPLE but also for SEXUAL PARTS, both reputed to be LOW. And LOW has also bad reputation, HIGH IS BETTER, of course, for the stablishment but not for the YI or maybe early taoist philosophy.

The place where WATERS reunite is highly apt for LIFE DEVELOPMENT, although dangerous it's the HUMBLE ORIGIN OF LIFE.

Maybe the hidden sense is that for better uinderstand JOY is needed to have guts, say to have courage.

I believe that each time that something bizarre occurs in translation, in the meaning there is something discomfortable for the translator.

I don't know if somebody says what are the components of 睾, but I see the upper EYE, meaning GOD, GOD GIFTS. In the lower (conflictive) I see something like an OFFICIAL / PHALLUS over something like UPSIDE DOWN PERSON (a component of the word for CONCUBINE/WIFE).

Maybe JOY between MAN and WOMAN is a GIFT of GOD (or of NATURE).

Thus the senses of GRACE, FAVORS, KINDNESS, BROAD ...

Double marsh = Beautiful gift.

Yours,

Charly

 

[fkegan]

Hi Charly,

Thanks for the more detailed discussion. The notion of trigram Lake as where things naturally settle as the lowest area of the topography, then the notion of the marsh as where those without established places on the commanding heights get together and then as the place where the body passes water and does other things unmentionable in polite company. With the overall result of trigram Marsh or Lake and then two of these trigrams in a single hexagram to raise even more uncomfortable allusions for scribes and copyists.

All in all it all makes good sense. Just sort of highlights that there are limits to trying to find total meaning just in the ideogram/characters written rather than the line structure and KWS numbering.

Hex 58 as the 8th hexagram of the 6th set of 10 is the dynamic development over time (8th place, paired to 7th as static structure) of what is set loose in the human heart by the Divine Thunder stroke or Cupid's Arrow (hex 51). Here the individual set loose on their private wandering (hex 56) and aimless windswept fluidity(hex 57) comes to a natural gathering place of similar folks as temporary situation where the high energy state of hex 59 must be resolved to reach that final peace of the person in their ultimate setting like flowing water finally quiescent in its marsh or lake environment of hex 60.

So hex 58 is the gathering place for friendly discussion but not ultimate home for even two connected lakes or marshes are still subject to water flows and the Joy of hex 58 is only one feeling not an entire human reality for an entire lifetime.

Frank

 

[charly]

... All in all it all makes good sense. Just sort of highlights that there are limits to trying to find total meaning just in the ideogram/characters written rather than the line structure and KWS numbering...
... So hex 58 is the gathering place for friendly discussion but not ultimate home for even two connected lakes or marshes are still subject to water flows and the Joy of hex 58 is only one feeling not an entire human reality for an entire lifetime.
...

Frank:

1st.: Of course, there is nothing like TOTAL MEANING, whatever meaning is always partial. I'm only trying to translate the text plainly and read it at the light of connotations. It cann't replace the structural analysis or other sources of insight.

2nd.: as you say joy is a feeling, not life itself, but a good feeling. Waters have no ultimate home, after reaching the lowest level, or even before, waters get newely high as vapor / steam. The cycle of water continues, like the cycle of life.

After all maybe it's neither swamp nor marsh but a swimming pool:

From: http://elperfumedemujer.wordpress.com/
​

Yours,

Charly

 

[fkegan]

Hi Charly,

Having spent several years in a chaise lounge by a swimming pool doing at least an hour a day of swimming meditation; and watching the girls fashionable swim tops come off their actual tops as they swam laps, I quite agree with you.

A swimming pool is absolutely a mix of marsh, lake, friendly discussion and testicles.
That modern image makes the deep meaning embedded in the ideogram totally clear.

Thanx,

Frank

 

[charly]

Hi Charly,

Having spent several years in a chaise lounge by a swimming pool doing at least an hour a day of swimming meditation; and watching the girls fashionable swim tops come off their actual tops as they swam laps, I quite agree with you.

A swimming pool is absolutely a mix of marsh, lake, friendly discussion and testicles.
That modern image makes the deep meaning embedded in the ideogram totally clear.

Thanx,

Frank

Hi, Frank:

I have remembered from where I took the idea of COMFORTABLE TRANSLATION.

Legge, in the footnotes to Hex. 3 says:

I have introduced within parentheses, in the translation, the words «in the case which the hexagram presupposes»... King Wăn and his son wrote, as they did in every hexagram, with reference to a particular state of affairs which they had in mind. This was the unspoken text which controlled and directed all their writing; and the student must try to get hold of this, if he would make his way with comfort and success through the Yî ...

From Sacred Texts
at: http://www.sacred-texts.com/ich/ic03.htm

Had Legge a hard copy of that UNSPOKEN TEXT? Maybe the INEFFABLE CHANGES?

Maybe nothing to do with COMFORT but with JOY:

INMENSA GIOIA DI VIVERE

Canta l'immensa gioia di vivere,
d'essere forte, d'essere giovine,
di mordere i frutti terrestri
con saldi e bianchi denti voraci,

Gabriel D'annunzio
(1863/1938)
at: http://www.liceoalberti.it/~magic/DANNUNZ/da-gioia.htm

Yours,

Charly

_____________________________________
(1) Praise the IMMENSE JOY of living, / of being strong, of being young, / of bitting the earthly fruits / with solid and white greedy teeth. [Ch., lacking of something better ...]

 

[rodaki]

bringing Nigel Richmond into the pool . .

58.1

Joy of inner wholeness.
Good fortune.

The life force becomes active and so supports
our acting outwards. The inner being (line 6)
accepts the life force and so we are centred and
complete innerly so we act out without doubt

Joy as the harmonious expression of pent up energy?
Sounds like Art . .

 

[charly]

... Joy as the harmonious expression of pent up energy?
Sounds like Art . .

Hi, Dora:

I agree more with your HARMONIOUS applied to JOY although I'm affraid that HARMONY has a wide if not conflictive variety of meanings (1).


58.1
和 he2: harmony / union /
兌 dui4: to cash / to barter / gifts interchange // joy /
吉 ji2: lucky /

HARMONIOUS JOY
Balanced, equitative joy
On an equal basis for partners

LUCKY
Fortunate
​

和 he2 sounds the same than 合 he2 to combine / to unite / to gather / to collect / to close / to suit. (2)

Yours,

Charly

________________________________
(1) Much times HARMONY means plainly SOCIAL CONTROL, «do not disturb»:

Todo en su medida y armoniosamente:

We have a wonderful youth, but be careful that she can take a mistaken way! And that it is our obligation, that it is our task...

We must return to the Greece of Pericles, where in each frontispiece there was a legend that said: «Everything in its measurement and harmoniously».

J.D.Perón, 2/8/1973.

(2) 合陰陽 «He Yin Yang» is the tilte of one of the Mawangdui medical manuscrips, translated by Donald Harper as «Uniting Yin and Yang», wich, of course, means what you can imagine.

 

[rodaki]

Hi, Dora:

I agree more with your HARMONIOUS applied to JOY although I'm affraid that HARMONY has a wide if not conflictive variety of meanings (1).



和 he2 sounds the same than 合 he2 to combine / to unite / to gather / to collect / to close / to suit. (2)

Yours,

Charly

________________________________
(1) Much times HARMONY means plainly SOCIAL CONTROL, «do not disturb»:

hi Charly,

you're right, here, in the beginning of Joy there is also the pitfall of censure and oppression that will deny it . . is that maybe how things can go wrong with this line?

but I have come to think that 'harmony' is being ill-treated after all when used to enforce control . . Similar as in chinese he2, harmony carries within it the meanings of:

harmony
c.1384, from O.Fr. armonie, from L. harmonia, from Gk. harmonia "agreement, concord of sounds," lit. "means of joining," related to harmos "joint, shoulder," from PIE *ar-ti-, from *ar- "to fit together."

(http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=harmony&searchmode=none)

even completely different languages can be interconnected lakes sometimes
another happy coincidence, etymonline gave the word 'symphony' right after 'harmony' which could be great for the next line of 58 . .

«Uniting Yin and Yang» -in all its instances- is perhaps the highest Art anyone can strive for . .

 

[charly]

[58.2]

° Nine in the second place means:
Sincere joyousness. Good fortune.
Remorse disappears.
​

We often find ourselves associating with inferior people in whose company we are tempted by pleasures that are inappropriate for the superior man. To participate in such pleasures would certainly bring remorse, for a superior man can find no real satisfaction in low pleasures. When, recognizing this, a man does not permit his will to swerve, so that he does not find such ways agreeable, not even dubious companions will venture to proffer any base pleasures, because he would not enjoy them. Thus every cause for regret is removed.

Wilhelb/Baynes

 

[charly]

... To participate in such pleasures would certainly bring remorse, for a superior man can find no real satisfaction in low pleasures...

If NO SATISFACTION, what should be the reason for to participate? There are PLEASURES with NO SATISFACTION?

I don't trust. The Superior Man surely expects to get some satisfaction, this is the reason for wich he is tempted.

Of course, he gets no satisfaction with such low pleasures, this is the cause of regret.

But if he gets some satisfaction, but not enough, this might be the cause of REMORSE.

If remorse always disappears, WHY WORRY?

Copla:

.

..cuán presto se va el placer,
cómo, después de acordado, da dolor;
cómo, a nuestro parecer,
cualquiera tiempo pasado fue mejor...
​

Jorge Manrique (1440-1479)

I don't understand too much.

(to be continued)


Yours,

Charly


_____________________________
(1) Literal version:

... how quick goes itself the pleasure,
how, after remembered, gives pain;
how, to our oppinion,
any past time was better...
​

See a poetic translation here:

http://users.ipfw.edu/jehle/poesia/COPLASEN.HTM

 

[fkegan]

Hi Charly and Dora,

Each of the moving lines represents a way that this hexagram is CHANGED into some other. Just as you can't have your cake and eat it too. You can't hang on to this hexagram too long as its lines change...

With the first line moving, Dui where the marshy roots and lower personal appendages are expressing and exhausting themselves, changes the fellowship around the pool towards hex 47 where all the fluid water and its pleasures ebbs and flows subjecting the Time to the vicissitudes of the timing that dries up at times exposing itself in its naked structure.

When the second line moves, expressing and exhausting itself, it opens up this line place which is then well-related to the ruling 5th place, allowing free flow of discussion and co-operation, moving the swimming pool community towards hex 17 Tracking or Following, where in the Wilhelm image, thunder in the midst of the swimming pool:

Thus the Superior Man (and coolest cat) at nightfall goes indoors [taking his lady friend from poolside to bed for mutual satisfaction {which is what makes him Superior to the average male}].

Frank

 

[maremaria]

If NO SATISFACTION, what should be the reason for to participate? There are PLEASURES with NO SATISFACTION?

intercourse ? ( won't say more about it,)

Generally, I think, if i understand correct your questions, satisfaction is when you get what you expect. Sometimes those needs need fulfilled lead people to seek the joy in every place they can possibly find pleasure. Then there are engaged with sources that can’t bring this satisfaction, and they get disappointed thus the regrets and remorse. That gap inside remains empty.

Lower pleasures, here, might mean lower than it is ready needed or superficial in the sense that the joy they offer stays in the surface and evaporates quickly .

be back with better explanation.

 

[my_key]

Any excuse to listen to the Stones.......
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MejtR81RzCo

58.2 - When you have a genuine connection to joy and are walking within the bubble of genuine joy then there is no reason to be "tempted by pleasures that are inappropriate". My sort of thinking here is that this line is kinda saying why, when you are in a state of bliss, would you want to sully that state with anything as mundane as pleasures of the flesh.

Perhaps Mick and the boys hadn't quite got the hang of it, as if you catch the lyrics they do seem to be stating a certain amount of remorse.

Mike

 

[charly]

...be back with better explanation.

Hi, María:

But I have NO EXPLANATION. The things is that I little trust in high purposes of the so called «Superior Men» .

Take W/B:

Sincere joyousness. Good fortune.Remorse disappears.

If the joyousness is sincere, why the remorse? Maybe the accurate word is not sincere.

You can see a the character translated as SINCERE / SICERITY in the article of Harmen Mesker «Who's fuling who»

The Yi often talks about fu 孚, a character which is many times translated as 'trust', 'confidence' or 'truth' ...
On bronze inscriptions we see 孚 mainly used as a verb: to capture people, chariots, or other materials during a battle ... It was the act of acquiring war booty, and sometimes it also referred to the booty itself... This meaning was lost in later centuries, instead of a verb it became a quality...

H.Mesker
From: http://i-tjingcentrum.nl/serendipity/archives/117-Whos-fuling-who.html

I use to translate 孚 fu as TO CATCH / CAUGHT or TO CAPTURE / CAPTIVE when used in the core text or ZhouYi, following the path of modern translators, some of them chinese.

Then (W/B in uppercase):

孚 fu2: trust / confidence / sincerity // to capture / captive / SINCERE /
兌 dui4: joy / gifts interchange / JOYOUSNESS /
吉 ji2: lucky / GOOD FORTUNE /

悔 hui3: regret / remorse / REMORSE /
亡 wang2: to die / to disppear / DISAPPEARS /

A literal translation could be:

CATCHING JOY is LUCKY
say captivating, contagious, that passes from one to another
that sort of joy is lucky

REMORSE DISAPPEARS
all possible remorse will dissapear
maybe not too fair means,
maybe some sacrifice of our principles
if the joy is shared, don't worry
​

Another one:

CATCH the JOY, be LUCKY
catch opportunity at the fly
maybe would not pass twice

NO REGRETS
don't worry.
​

More comments?

Pregunté a la tarde de abril que moría:
—¿Al fin la alegría se acerca a mi casa?
La tarde de abril sonrió: —La alegría
pasò por tu puerta— y luego, sombría:
Pasó por tu puerta. Dos veces no pasa.

A.Machado (1)
From: http://www.los-poetas.com/a/mach1.htm

Did Machado read the Changes?

Yours,

Charly

_________________________________
(1) I asked the afternoon of april that died:
—Is yet JOY approaching my home?
The afternoon of april smiled: —The JOY
passed by your door— and then, shady:
Passed by your door. Twice does not pass.

Horrible translation by Ch.

 

[charly]

... Thus the Superior Man (and coolest cat) at nightfall goes indoors [taking his lady friend from poolside to bed for mutual satisfaction {which is what makes him Superior to the average male}].

Thanks, Frank:

I don't understand too much what are CATS doing here. (1)

Low Men maybe don't worry about mutual satisfaction or maybe, no having too much delicacy, they do the thing in the poolside.

I have read that the Shang courtiers preferred the pool, better if filled with wine!

Maybe this was the reason they were defeated, or at least the Zhous said so.

Yours,


Charly

________________________________
(1) Maybe «The Cats» of Baudelaire? Sex and wisdom indeed.

Les amoureux fervents et les savants austères
Aiment également, dans leur mûre saison,
Les chats puissants et doux, orgueil de la maison,
Qui comme eux sont frileux et comme eux sédentaires.

Ch.Baudelaire
From: http://www.kalliope.org/digt.pl?longdid=baudel1999070183

 

[my_key]

Hi, María:

But I have NO EXPLANATION. The things is that I little trust in high purposes of the so called «Superior Men» .

Hey Charly
Karcher says 58.2 is a trustworthy place. Open yourself to this influence. It will open a whole new world, Reach out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LuZoYAL65Yo

Mike

 

[fkegan]

Thanks, Frank:

I don't understand too much what are CATS doing here. (1)

Low Men maybe don't worry about mutual satisfaction or maybe, no having too much delicacy, they do the thing in the poolside.

I have read that the Shang courtiers preferred the pool, better if filled with wine!

Maybe this was the reason they were defeated, or at least the Zhous said so.

Yours,
Charly

________________________________
(1) Maybe «The Cats» of Baudelaire? Sex and wisdom indeed.

Hi Charly,
Actually the reference to cats arose from a time when jazz performers had pet cats and then they themselves were referred to as cats and then jazz sought to be not-hot and so cool jazz and then to be a cool cat was to be a Superior Man in the musical, artistic community.

Then I was referencing life around the marshy swimming pool which went on all day and then at night folks tended to pair up and go home together and those interludes that resulted in mutual sexual satisfaction were considered Superior to those that were just casual sex and disappointment.

These are American popular idioms and California pool community lifestyle references which seem to also relate to the range of translations for the Chinese ideograms you have cited.

Frank

 

[rodaki]

intercourse ? ( won't say more about it,)

Generally, I think, if i understand correct your questions, satisfaction is when you get what you expect. Sometimes those needs need fulfilled lead people to seek the joy in every place they can possibly find pleasure. Then there are engaged with sources that can’t bring this satisfaction, and they get disappointed thus the regrets and remorse. That gap inside remains empty.

Lower pleasures, here, might mean lower than it is ready needed or superficial in the sense that the joy they offer stays in the surface and evaporates quickly .

ditto that . .
ah, that pool has slippery slopes . . there's always the danger of overindulging in Joy which turns it into a liability.
Anyway I think deeming activities as inherently base or noble is such a slippery slope -maybe the criteria is not inherent in the activities themselves but stem from our own attitude and approach to them. Wilhelm doesn't help in this either, coupling a generous text with a stingy commentary . . sometimes I think he does it just to warn for the pitfalls we might ignore, drowning in a positive omen.
But how about the fan yao of the line . . that might add more clarity . .
In the end I think we know when we are following our puny or our greater self

 

[maremaria]

charly :
But I have NO EXPLANATION. The things is that I little trust in high purposes of the so called «Superior Men» .

Charly, i'm a bit in a hurry so i won't respond now in your post. But I have a question.
Is the "superior man" flawless ? Why can't he engage himself with such people or pleasures ? And how someone becomes superior ?


Maria

 

[my_key]

58.3 - the devil makes work for idle hands

[FONT=&quot]Six in the third place means:[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
Coming joyousness. Misfortune.
True joy must spring from within. But if one is empty within and wholly given over to the world, idle pleasures come streaming in from without. This is what many people welcome as diversion. Those who lack inner stability and therefore need amusement, will always find opportunity of indulgence. They attract external pleasures by the emptiness of their natures. Thus they lose themselves more and more, which of course has bad results. [/FONT]

 

[meng]

line 3 thoughts -

I want it so much it hurts.

An extended hand should offer more than it takes.

What's in it for me?

This is gonna be great!

I'm going to be popular! (or lead, or be liked, or even just accepted)

 

[charly]

Hey Charly
Karcher says 58.2 is a trustworthy place. Open yourself to this influence. It will open a whole new world, Reach out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LuZoYAL65Yo

Mike

Hi, Mike:

Do you believe that the WET-WET-WETs have read the Changes? I believe to perceive some issues:

→ love felt in the toes
→ written on the wind
→ there is no begining, there will be no end

I agree very much with you:

When you have a genuine connection to joy and are walking within the bubble of genuine joy then there is no reason to be "tempted by pleasures that are inappropriate".

Yours,

Charly

 

[my_key]

Hi, Mike:

Do you believe that the WET-WET-WETs have read the Changes? I believe to perceive some issues:

→ love felt in the toes
→ written on the wind
→ there is no begining, there will be no end

I agree very much with you:



Yours,

Charly

I don't know about Wet Wet Wet and the I Ching , however, there are lots of wise artists who hide there knowledge within the symbols of their art. Perhaps it is one way that they are able to truly express themselves.
So much can be missed by not really listening and reading the lyrics of the songs that one is drawn to.
Mike

 

[charly]

... Is the "superior man" flawless ? Why can't he engage himself with such people or pleasures ? And how someone becomes superior ?
...

Hi, María:

Maybe we need some logic: «if someone is a superior man then he is perfect». It's of course TRUE, because NOBODY is a SUPERIOR MAN.

Then, I have no idea of what motives can have a person that doesn't exist.

Frank has some ideas about how to become superior than the average man, but it isn't the same that to be The Superior Man.

Always, always, always there is another that is higher in the pecking order or sitting in a higher pole in the henhouse.

There are many ways for becoming something illusory: paying for it, receiving it from a previous owner, be by grace, robbing or killing him, following a method... there are many ways that lead to nowhere.

Why asking for the superior man when everybody know that the superior are the women?

And why asking here when the Changes doesn't speak of any Superior Man? (1)

Even SuperMan dreams with taking The Girl in his arms.

Best whishes,

Charly
_____________________
(1) for better understanding see «The Bradford»

 

[maremaria]

Hi, María:

Maybe we need some logic: «if someone is a superior man then he is perfect». It's of course TRUE, because NOBODY is a SUPERIOR MAN.

Then, I have no idea of what motives can have a person that doesn't exist.



Best whishes,

Charly
_____________________
(1) for better understanding see «The Bradford»

Hi Charly,

Logic isn’t not one of my strongest assets, lol, so given that I believe that Junzi exists. ( I prefer the term noble or better junzi than superior) Denying his existence is like denying mine or yours or everybody else’s. This is why YiJing is an interesting book after all. Because it talks about the days and nights of someone I know or someone i need to know better.

Maria

 

[jilt]

for line 3: what about making fun at the cost of someone's integrity". It also is about being entertained, being passive in exchange, so there is no reflection on the fun: sarcasm, irony, laughing at someone's misery and bad luck.

 

[maremaria]

I don't understand at all line 58.3. Is the subject of that line Just waits from the other to make them happy or s/he entertains, being nice with others just to belong to that group?
I have read many times Wilhelm’s text but doesn’t make sense. Can anyone give me an example? What its his/hers profile ?

Maria