59.2,5 > 23 - live with it?

[em ching]

Hello,

My last thread was about a friend who I've had for a while, recently turned romantic, but now we're not talking. We used to send lots of emails etc., but perhaps in the flesh things were lacking, though I do blame my depression on making things harder last time I was with him (working on it). Added to that the relationship is long-distance, soon to be longer distance.

I asked, not hearing from him, has it been due to incompatibility or circumstance?
59.2,5 > 23

Ok maybe he doesn't feel close to me, and because of having family problems too at the mo, he's fleeing to tried and tested support, but peraps waiting for a time when he is inspired to clear up the dissolution (59.5) - something that could unite us again? I haven't asked him if it's over, and he hasn't said, so perhaps he's undecided?
23> But it could be a case that this dissolution is leading to a complete split this time (a similar thing happened between us a few years ago, but I wasn't bothered then as my feelings were not strong).

I have contacted him (not overly so, and nothing for the past week and a half) but still, possibly gone against the feeling of the time in an effort to reconnect which may have further alienated him.

I asked: Should I contact him or wait?
40. 2, 4, 5 > 8

40. 2> to have attention from him again would flatter my ego, but these are false ideas? (this discerned from Carol Anthony's book. I guess the idea of getting back what we had, is represented by the foxes?)
40. 4> 'disbelief in the path of non-action prevents deliverance'. So if I free myself, try and limit the extent to which my emotions are sated by 'successful' relationships, real friends will come voluntarily. Perhaps it was nice to have someone to depend upon and feel wanted, but if I'm honest with myself, not needed or functional, considering our circumstances..
40.5 > Lise: A free mind cannot be bound and does not bind others. But everyone will follow him of his own free will. In order to make others listen to you, honor them for what they are, and give them the freedom to be what they are.
Also perhaps I need to break with my inferior voices, in this case neediness.

8 > Who do I truly belong with? And him for that matter... Perhaps only by letting it go now, will we find out again...

Do you think this points to doing nothing and waiting? And if our enthusiasms bring us together again, well it's just another little bit of history repeated? Maybe even, third time lucky...

Any ideas on the above? When you've had 59 and/or 23 re. relationships, has it been literal? For the most part? ie. dissolution and splitting up?

I also asked should I apologise for my negative behaviour? (we were together 3 weeks ago - just for a day...)
22.5 > 37

This seems to say that sincerity of feeling makes it a good idea. I wouldn't be doing it with expectation of reunion - what's done is done- but just so he knows I realise I've got issues to work on... But maybe this act in itself is negative/neurotic and egotistical? I also may be blowing it out of proportion... I wasn't always negative, anxious and awkward with him, I just betrayed it more than I wish I did...

Thanks.

:bows:

 

[Trojina]

No, of course you shouldn't contact him again if you have already tried several times and he hasn't responded. If he wants space that will annoy him, make him feel hounded. I can't see what possible positive consequence could come from you contacting him again...unless you want to ask directly 'is it over' but why would you do that when his actions seem to speak for themselves


The 59>23 says to me he needed to kind of evaporate his focus, let go. I don't think it implies it was your fault just that he needs to move and disperse his feelings and thoughts and also just get himself together....does sound like he needs support for himself

I'd think the 40 was about you practising really just letting this go. If he wants to return let him take the initiative.


You need some pride here Em. I mean what would Jane Austen advise here

If you can't let go in your mind and theres nothing to be gained from contacting him you will have a waiting attitude which is okay when its just too painful to contemplate a total break. But then while you are waiting stay open to other people etc I think you will need to distract your heart as much as possible.

If he comes back to you in time thats good, if he doesn't hopefully someone else will have taken his place by then


But no, a young lady must not keep contacting a young man when he does not respond to her. That soils her dignity and distresses her heart. She must keep herself calm and beautiful and open to other suitors so if he does return he will rue the day he ever let her go and fall at her feet by which time the fair lady will have given her affections elsewhere..........oh heck thats heading in to Barbera Cartland, I was aiming for Austen but don't actually know much about Austen

seriously though...I don't think you should contact him again because I feel you need to keep some dignity here. Thats important for your self esteem.

 

[goddessliss]

But no, a young lady must not keep contacting a young man when he does not respond to her. That soils her dignity and distresses her heart. She must keep herself calm and beautiful and open to other suitors so if he does return he will rue the day he ever let her go and fall at her feet by which time the fair lady will have given her affections elsewhere..........oh heck thats heading in to Barbera Cartland, I was aiming for Austen but don't actually know much about Austen

trojan you so crack me up!!

seriously though...I don't think you should contact him again because I feel you need to keep some dignity here. Thats important for your self esteem.

yes seriously I agree - Em maintain you integrity and dignity - men are just damn confusing sometimes.

 

[alev]

LOVE this quote!

"But no, a young lady must not keep contacting a young man when he does not respond to her. That soils her dignity and distresses her heart. She must keep herself calm and beautiful and open to other suitors so if he does return he will rue the day he ever let her go and fall at her feet by which time the fair lady will have given her affections elsewhere.........."

 

[Trojina]

Hey maybe I should start writing the

Yi Book of Etiquette in Courtship for Young Ladies


I think it could be a best seller

 

[Trojina]

Us older ladies do what the heck we like so etiquette doesn't apply

 

[cristal]

You never know if there is something to be gained at least you contact him maybe a last time with a clear explanation of how you feel, straight, honest that make you sotisfied with all you think you want to tell , otherwise you will always be with the inner question, why I did not do this?. And only after it I will leave what was meant to be. And expect him to contact you whilst you keep living. So you dont prevent deliverance..

"Letting go, does not mean to do not take action before leaving"

 

[em ching]

I'd think the 40 was about you practising really just letting this go. If he wants to return let him take the initiative.


You need some pride here Em. I mean what would Jane Austen advise here

If you can't let go in your mind and theres nothing to be gained from contacting him you will have a waiting attitude which is okay when its just too painful to contemplate a total break. But then while you are waiting stay open to other people etc I think you will need to distract your heart as much as possible.

If he comes back to you in time thats good, if he doesn't hopefully someone else will have taken his place by then

But no, a young lady must not keep contacting a young man when he does not respond to her. That soils her dignity and distresses her heart. She must keep herself calm and beautiful and open to other suitors so if he does return he will rue the day he ever let her go and fall at her feet by which time the fair lady will have given her affections elsewhere..........[/I]oh heck thats heading in to Barbera Cartland, I was aiming for Austen but don't actually know much about Austen

seriously though...I don't think you should contact him again because I feel you need to keep some dignity here. Thats important for your self esteem.

Hehe thank you. That was very Jane Austen! I know not of Barbara though... But I think the holding onto your dignity in this manner would apply to either sex too, especially nowadays where a young man cannot easily presume upon winning the heart of a lady on the merits of his fortune alone Had a look for one on the theme, there were many about a lady's virtue, but this I liked:

But when a young lady is to be a heroine, the perverseness of forty surrounding families cannot prevent her. Something must and will happen to throw a hero in her way.
Jane Austen, Northanger Abbey

One needs to think oneself a heroine

The bits I have emboldened because I realise it must be a defence mechanism. The waiting bit. As much as I hate hope when I think of the tragedy of its unfullfilment, nevertheless it is there But yes I realise that given time, someone else will come along and it'll begin all over again... (only kidding!...) and this guy will no longer have a hold upon me... Isn't it all So Silly!

I have not contacted him you'll be pleased to know, even though I'm so annoyed with myself and feel I made certain mistakes I needn't have... but I guess I have learnt, again. It's also made me more determined to be positive in my thinking. (Finally given CBT a proper look - I fit the ideal candidate to a T!) But my thoughts about myself are rather ingrained, I just have to laugh at them - the negative thoughts - when they come along. And introduce them to Mr Positive and Mrs Neutral (a much better couple and the threesome working together would be more a reflection of reality! Rather than my incestually breeding negative thoughts... as it were. Ah metaphors...)

Thanks very much for taking time to counsel me here. I am eternally grateful.

Ooh and a useful reading I have had (I confess I have helped myself to rather too many I Ching readings about him!) Re what's happening in the relationship? (possibly wrong sort of question, should have asked what's happening perhaps??)
54.4> 19
Carol Anthony: In waiting past what would seem to be the correct time for the situation to clear up, we avoid throwing ourself away. Thus we find happiness and self-respect. One day the situation will clear up.

- reflects my feeling of impatience, wanting to improve things by excusing myself, wanting to make things go my way again. But you can't talk to someone who ain't talking to you (to be fair he hasn't ignored me, just not been as forthcoming - well a fraction of what he was - and we haven't had communications for almost 2 weeks now...)

So I just have to bear with the imperfect situation and I should be more ready next time someone comes along :bag:

Thank you!
:bows:

 

[em ching]

Us older ladies do what the heck we like so etiquette doesn't apply

I am looking forward to that stage I guess it's when you don't want something as much, you don't modify your behaviour/try to scheme (be it unconsciously or not) to get it. Or you're sure of yourself and at this point:

“Now I know the things I know, and I do the things I do; and if you do not like me so, to hell, my love, with you!” Dorothy Parker

 

[em ching]

"Letting go, does not mean to do not take action before leaving"

Thank you. That is a good point. And my reading 22.5 seemed to suggest it wouldn't do any harm. But I think it would be prolonging the negativity, if I apologised to him for my negativity/inability to relax when I was with him (which I did make a joke out of too) almost a month ago now... I think it's too late now... I think I could have said it before, but I went into denial mode. Just contacted him cheerily like there was nothing wrong, even though I knew there was a gulf between us after our awkward time together in the flesh. Silly me. Plus my thinking could be distorted, perhaps I didn't behave as pathetically as I fear, or perhaps we're just incompatible, now, perhaps forever.

I did start to write something out, but just couldn't go ahead with it. It just seemed pointless. His silence speaks for itself. Also this has spurred me to seriously want to improve myself, lest I push yet more people away, and the I Ching does say we should lead by example, not fancy words. I think that's reflected by hex 22: it's no use talking the talk when you can't really walk the walk yet. If I stay positive, healthy and independent, he may pick up on it unconsciously and come back to me... But at the moment I feel like we're strangers again. And I think he might think me a little immature (what with my 'issues') and messaging him might compound that. I need to swallow my pride and move on. That would be the mature thing now...

I think. I just feel there's nothing I can say now and it might be irrelevant. All I was thinking of saying was: 'I'm sorry if I was a bit negative when I was with you last, I'm working on it!' but I think it just seems a little pathetic now, to do that. Plus I'm leaving the country soon. I guess this was inevitable. I just thought we might part on a note of togetherness but nothing's ever perfect.

Plus do you think it is wrong to apologise for yourself when it comes to relationships as it would only negate yourself and reduce your worth even further in their eyes? (I mean in this sort of situation, not if you'd done something really wrong or hurt them). What do you think?

Thank you for your input!!

:bows:

 

[rodaki]

Plus do you think it is wrong to apologise for yourself when it comes to relationships as it would only negate yourself and reduce your worth even further in their eyes? (I mean in this sort of situation, not if you'd done something really wrong or hurt them). What do you think?

em, not sure if this is directed to zeishiky but I wonder, would you be 'apologizing' if this was just a friend? And why is it more important to decide on it depending on the amount of appreciation you'll get and not on what will make you feel you've been good to yourself? Not to your need alone, but to the wiser, better, loveable you . . And how about letting go to discover what will survive from this (59/23)?

your 40 reads to me as doing what will ease you . . if that means contacting him, hold on tight and do it, if that stresses you more than relaxes you find a way to unleash your tension and stay close to what flows easier . .


ok, you probably heard and thought this before, nothing new here, just reiterating I guess.

 

[rodaki]

edited previous -too tired to write straight
:bag:

 

[Trojina]

Hehe thank you. That was very Jane Austen! I know not of Barbara though... But I think the holding onto your dignity in this manner would apply to either sex too, especially nowadays where a young man cannot easily presume upon winning the heart of a lady on the merits of his fortune alone Had a look for one on the theme, there were many about a lady's virtue, but this I liked:

But when a young lady is to be a heroine, the perverseness of forty surrounding families cannot prevent her. Something must and will happen to throw a hero in her way.
Jane Austen, Northanger Abbey

classic

One needs to think oneself a heroine

The bits I have emboldened because I realise it must be a defence mechanism. The waiting bit. As much as I hate hope when I think of the tragedy of its unfullfilment, nevertheless it is there But yes I realise that given time, someone else will come along and it'll begin all over again... (only kidding!...) and this guy will no longer have a hold upon me... Isn't it all So Silly!

Yes i think its a defence mechanism...but its certainly one we all need. Theres something too painful to be faced so we don't, our minds won't let us. I'dlove to say it was all so silly and that we grow out of it....but I don't think its silly or that we ever grow out of it...although by the 101st time we have the same dilemma with the 101st person we are just wise to our process which can be even comforting in its predictability.

I have not contacted him you'll be pleased to know, even though I'm so annoyed with myself and feel I made certain mistakes I needn't have... but I guess I have learnt, again. It's also made me more determined to be positive in my thinking. (Finally given CBT a proper look - I fit the ideal candidate to a T!) But my thoughts about myself are rather ingrained, I just have to laugh at them - the negative thoughts - when they come along. And introduce them to Mr Positive and Mrs Neutral (a much better couple and the threesome working together would be more a reflection of reality! Rather than my incestually breeding negative thoughts... as it were. Ah metaphors...)

Thanks very much for taking time to counsel me here. I am eternally grateful.

yes I think the one place you differ from many other females in this situation is they would have a cut off point where dignity, self esteem, recognition of rejection made them pull back into themselves...a kind of time of retreating and licking the wounds . For you its like you continue putting yourself out there for the approval of the rejector. I'm no therapist though and not especially a fan of it but I think its worth you investing some time on yourself because those bad thoughts about yourself are a real menace to you. heh well I guess we could all do with some therapy

Ooh and a useful reading I have had (I confess I have helped myself to rather too many I Ching readings about him!) Re what's happening in the relationship? (possibly wrong sort of question, should have asked what's happening perhaps??)
54.4> 19
Carol Anthony: In waiting past what would seem to be the correct time for the situation to clear up, we avoid throwing ourself away. Thus we find happiness and self-respect. One day the situation will clear up.

- reflects my feeling of impatience, wanting to improve things by excusing myself, wanting to make things go my way again. But you can't talk to someone who ain't talking to you (to be fair he hasn't ignored me, just not been as forthcoming - well a fraction of what he was - and we haven't had communications for almost 2 weeks now...)

So I just have to bear with the imperfect situation and I should be more ready next time someone comes along :bag:
Thank you!
:bows:

How are you going to be more ready though ? Nag nag .......You may not realise it but when people tell you to be kind to yourself to like yourself you often turn that into a fault as in you'll say something along the lines of 'yes I know I am too negative and I should ...and I must be more positive/etc etc" so its like you find a way to turn everything into self disapproval...so yes this self disapproval is strong....almost unassailable and I think it would pay for your future to get really good help with it and I don't just mean self help books. How about if you have a negative thought you think 'its okay I'm having a negative thought and I am not bad for that'...well I guess proper therapists have their ways


Hope thats not too patronising...but you are young and talented and this self disaproval really injures you. If you had a bad leg you'd get it fixed

 

[em ching]

em, not sure if this is directed to zeishiky but I wonder, would you be 'apologizing' if this was just a friend? And why is it more important to decide on it depending on the amount of appreciation you'll get and not on what will make you feel you've been good to yourself? Not to your need alone, but to the wiser, better, loveable you . . And how about letting go to discover what will survive from this (59/23)?

your 40 reads to me as doing what will ease you . . if that means contacting him, hold on tight and do it, if that stresses you more than relaxes you find a way to unleash your tension and stay close to what flows easier . .


ok, you probably heard and thought this before, nothing new here, just reiterating I guess.

Thanks Rodaki. I was asking everyone in general.
Well I have decided to let it all go. For a start, I may not have been that bad, so it'd just draw attention to it, which could alienate him even further from me. All I can do is look ahead. Perhaps the wheels will turn and things will feel right between us again, but until then I'll get on with my life (as I did before). I do think my barriers prevented him getting to know me, or at least feeling relaxed, which would explain the present schism between us. Or maybe we are just 'not right'.

Thanks for your advice
:bows:

 

[em ching]

although by the 101st time we have the same dilemma with the 101st person we are just wise to our process which can be even comforting in its predictability.

I can imagine.

yes I think the one place you differ from many other females in this situation is they would have a cut off point where dignity, self esteem, recognition of rejection made them pull back into themselves...a kind of time of retreating and licking the wounds . For you its like you continue putting yourself out there for the approval of the rejector. I'm no therapist though and not especially a fan of it but I think its worth you investing some time on yourself because those bad thoughts about yourself are a real menace to you. heh well I guess we could all do with some therapy

... Hope thats not too patronising...but you are young and talented and this self disaproval really injures you. If you had a bad leg you'd get it fixed

Thanks Trojan.
Yes I have always for some reason seeked approval from those who've rejected me or treated me badly. I wonder where my pride is sometimes! I never feel indignant or vengeful. I do think that a therapist would say, that that is due to my feeling I deserve it, due to low self-esteem/not liking myself. I have seen a therapist before and have an idea as to why I may be like this (something to do with me mam and dad surprise surprise) But I know I need to shake that off. It's just hard. I'm not sure what'd fix it either. I'm hoping for an epiphany Anti-depressants keep me buoyed feelings-wise but don't change my thoughts (probably a good thing really!). I've done an online CBT course (after me asking my doctor to refer me to the one offered by the NHS which I found out existed after doing my own research on the Internet, and after being on anti-depressants with him for almost two years! His suggestion has always been to up my dosage )

Reading about CBT, separating your thoughts from your reality and thus from your feelings makes a load of sense. But my negative thoughts do seem to be woven into the fabric of my consciousness, unconsiously!! But my life will be speeding up again soon which should take me out of me... And I will try to think nice thoughts about myself!!

Thanks as always
:bows: