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6.4 About leaving

Extevan

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These troubled times has left me, and most of the people on planet I assume, deeply devoid of energies and stuff we need for our well being. After two years of being stuck in place I had a semi-chance to pack my bags and leave for a prolonged, much needed, vacation. I say semi-chance because the situation is not the best, either for the organization of the trip (things evolved in rush and I got only two days to plan an abroad trip) and also for the situation that I'd be leaving (there some little loose ends back home). I asked the Oracle if it was good for me to leave hastily now and I got 6.4 => 59.

Hex 6 seems to clearly spell to retreat now and do nothing. The changing line 4 also denotes that, I think. But I can't interpret the resulting 59. Is it about what would happen if I stay or if I go?

Can you kindly provide an overall interpretation of cast for me? Thank you!
 

Trojina

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Well 6.4 advises really that one stop resisting, stop trying to make things work, stop trying to sort out problems

'Not in control of the argument,
Turning back, approaching mandate.
Renouncing, settling peacefully.
Constancy, good fortune.'

Where it says 'not in control of the argument' it's just that and for 'argument' one need not think of this in terms of actual conflict but trying to argue with things by trying to change them/solve them/work it out. Here you can't sort it out solve it it's beyond you so you chill out, find acceptance and as you do you find purpose, you come back to where you're meant to be, there is an 'approaching mandate'.

59 is totally integrated with the answer, it's not 'the future' or 'the result' it's right where you are now with the the 6.4. In line 4 Conflict Disperses because you stop fighting.

So is this saying to go or not? This is what you have to figure out from your own perspective. Where do you feel you are trying to make things work, where does it feel a struggle? Wherever that feeling belongs, whether it is for going (which I think it is) or for staying give it up, surrender it. In doing so there is peace and good fortune and a sense of purpose which is unexpected.
 

my_key

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I asked the Oracle if it was good for me to leave hastily now and I got 6.4 => 59.

Hex 6 seems to clearly spell to retreat now and do nothing. The changing line 4 also denotes that, I think. But I can't interpret the resulting 59. Is it about what would happen if I stay or if I go?
6 meaning 'there are no connections'
59 meaning ' the Bright Presence breaks through'

Leaving hastily is not a way to connect to this situation. New, bright things are about to happen for you. What is happening to you at the moment is calling for you to really understand the wider context.

You will / are / have been tested to find ways of being at peace in your world and although things have/ are/ will be likely to get worse before they get better. But hang on in there. Keep doing all the good and right things you have learnt. That is what is good for you.

Only you can say whether that can be best achieved by staying where you are or leaving hastily.
Rather than 'retreating and doing nothing' Hex 6 speaks to me about resolving the issues that you are confronted with.

... or it might mean nothing like this for you.

Good Luck
 

marybluesky

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I feel for you.

If I got 6.4, took it as don't struggle, avoid hardship, change your view and be peaceful where you are (at least for the moment).
 

Liselle

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6 meaning 'there are no connections'
59 meaning ' the Bright Presence breaks through'
Hi My_key,

Would you mind saying whose book that is? I don't recognize it, offhand.
 

rosada

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I see 6.4 - 59 as describing what it is you are considering doing, that is you feel you
6.4 "Can't win this argument." You feel you need to step back and take a break from your life's drama. You want a vacation, you want to
59. "Cross the great river".
Furthermore, Dispersion says "The king assumes his temple", which I can see as meaning going on a spiritual retreat.

If this indeed describes how you are feeling then I think this reading is saying you should take this opportunity for some time out and go on this trip - particularly if it includes some opportunity for spiritual renewal, like visiting temples or sacred groves. On the other hand if you read the lines and say, "Well it's not really as bad as all that," (cause 6.4 can mean things are so hopeless one ought to just give up and Disperse from life all together), then you may decide you don't need this sudden vacation after all.
 
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Extevan

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Thank you for all your answers.

I see the salient point here is I am told to avoid more struggle. My situation entails that I feel more friction now about organizing things hastily. Also to make the trip as I want it is where I am forcing things to work, the idea of going has not been born spontaneously, rather I was in part trying to force myself into someone else's plans.
I guess overall the 'retreat' lies in not going or postponing now. Someone close to me suggested to gather up some energies before going, and that leaving at such a low point could be more harmless than healing. Does it ring more like it?

I really hope this is the right path cause that's the one I am about to take I think...
 

my_key

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Hi My_key,

Would you mind saying whose book that is? I don't recognize it, offhand.
Hi Liselle

Karcher - Total I Ching is the resource I use most

Other takes on the Xu Gua can be found in Hilary's Resonance Journal and you can, if the fancy takes you, find original text and another translation at Chinese Text Project https://ctext.org/book-of-changes/xu-gua.
I'm sure there are other takes on the meaning of the hexagrams elsewhere too.

Good Luck
 

Trojina

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Other takes on the Xu Gua can be found in Hilary's Resonance Journal
Liselle was an original tester of the Resonance and continues to take an active role in it's development :D 🥇

LiSe, Bradford and Hilary's translations are included there.

Karcher - Total I Ching is the resource I use most


Perhaps you could clarify the below for me?

6 meaning 'there are no connections'
59 meaning ' the Bright Presence breaks through'

I have Karcher's 'Total I Ching', the 2003 edition, and the title he gives there for hexagram 6 is 'Dispute/Pleading/Council' and the hexagram title he gives for 59 is 'Dispersing/Gushing'. Both of these are recognisable as the meaning/title of the hexagrams. The above was not recognisable to me as the hexagram title, unless you intend by 'meaning' not title but another aspect? It could also be you are referring to a more modern edition of the 'Total I Ching' perhaps? I'm not sure. I'm not sure if you are quoting Karcher directly in your above quote or not. If you are, and you have used quotation marks so I assume you are, it helps if you reference Karcher so we can see where you're getting the above from.
 

my_key

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Perhaps you could clarify the below for me?

I have Karcher's 'Total I Ching', the 2003 edition, and the title he gives there for hexagram 6 is 'Dispute/Pleading/Council' and the hexagram title he gives for 59 is 'Dispersing/Gushing'. Both of these are recognisable as the meaning/title of the hexagrams. The above was not recognisable to me as the hexagram title, unless you intend by 'meaning' not title but another aspect? It could also be you are referring to a more modern edition of the 'Total I Ching' perhaps? I'm not sure. I'm not sure if you are quoting Karcher directly in your above quote or not. If you are, and you have used quotation marks so I assume you are, it helps if you reference Karcher so we can see where you're getting the above from.
You may well not be looking in the right place.

The Xu Gua has nothing to do with the title of a Hexagram. The title conveys the name. The Xu Gua carries more of a sense of depth than a title. Something that has not been directly said in the Title. The meaning resides behind or beneath the title: it oozes through the title giving it a greater depth of flavour. Meaning and Title are in no way the same thing.

The place to look, if you have it in your version, is on 'The Paradigm' page for each pair. You'll find the text I quote at the bottom of the page. Similar to how Hilary lays it out under her heading The Pair.

In my version the information is on p103 for Hex 6 and p406 for Hex 59.

For yours and @Liselle's future reference Karcher or Hilary are the two sources I use. So if you don't recognise it as Hilary's words it'll be Karcher.
 
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Liselle

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It's not just Trojina's and my future reference, though, but everyone's. It'd help if you'd indicate just briefly who you're quoting. You could even just put (Karcher) or (Hilary) behind it real quick - anyone who wants more detail can always ask questions.

Probably would also help to mention it's the paired hexagram section. Karcher complicates that by calling it neither "Pair" nor "Zagua" in his books, but people will recognize those as standard terms.

Actually, I'm not completely sure if you're quoting the Zagua (paired hexagram section) or the Xugua (sequence).
6 meaning 'there are no connections'
59 meaning ' the Bright Presence breaks through'

Comparing that to Hilary's translations of both:

6 -
Sequence: ‘Drinking and eating naturally mean Arguing.’
Pair: ‘Waiting means not progressing, Arguing means not connecting.’

59 -
Sequence: ‘Rejoicing and hence scattering it, and so Dispersing follows. Dispersing means spreading out.’
Pair: Dispersing means spreading out, Measuring means stopping.’

"[T]here are no connections" seems to be 6's Pair (Zagua), but "the Bright Presence breaks through" does sound more like the Xugua (Sequence). I figure Karcher's "Bright Presence" and Hilary's "Rejoicing" are their respective ways of translating/expressing Dui, hexagram 58, which 59 follows from.


(Confession: I don't have Total I Ching so can't look at it for myself. It's on my "books to buy" list with a bunch of others 😂 )

[Edit - the crossed-out stuff is all wrong (also the crossed-out stuff in other posts below - I'm noticing this one the day after noticing the others). Trojina has Total I Ching and typed it all out for me, bless her.]
 
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Trojina

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The place to look, if you have it in your version, is on 'The Paradigm' page for each pair. You'll find the text I quote at the bottom of the page. Similar to how Hilary lays it out under her heading The Pair.
I see it, thanks. But the thing is there they are contrasted as a pair, in that Wing, for the purpose of contrast which doesn't really amount to 6 meaning, in itself 'there are no connections'. I think it may have helped if you'd said it was taken from the Xu Gua, termed 'the paradigm' in the Total I Ching. Taken out of context of the pair I think it's a little misleading.

You're talking about this which Hilary wrote of in a recent blog.

here


It's an extra, was called a memory device though as I think Hilary said does carry far more meaning than that.

I think when it's taken out of context it seems a bit odd, I didn't recognise it because you've taken half of it and said this is what 6 means.

For yours and @Liselle's future reference Karcher or Hilary are the two sources I use. So if you don't recognise it as Hilary's words it'll be Karcher.
I think Karcher should be acknowledged as the author of your quotes as any author should be. If one only uses one translation most of the time it works to put a brief note in your signature as Liselle and I have. If you don't want to do that it is necessary to reference who the quote is from. Otherwise people have no clue where you are getting it from when you say '59 means the Bright Presence breaks through'. Putting it like that, out of context from the Wing you are taking it from, is confusing.

The meaning resides behind or beneath the title: it oozes through the title giving it a greater depth of flavour. Meaning and Title are in no way the same thing.
I know the meaning of a hexagram can never be encapsulated in the title. Nonetheless the title does give a pretty good idea of the what the hexagram encompasses.



As Liselle said

If you're quoting someone directly, though, you really do need to indicate whose work it is. Basic attribution. All of us should do it.

I think that's pretty fundamental as courtesy and usual practise but even more fundamental when presenting something that may not be recognisable to others. People may wonder where on earth this notion of 'Bright Presence' comes from for example. Knowing it is Karcher, from his Total I Ching puts it in context and a person can check it for themselves. I personally think breaking up the Xu Gua into 2 halves and referencing one as the meaning leaves a great deal of room for confusion when not clearly attributed to the writer. 'Bright Presence' is a totally Karcherian phrase, it's not in Yi but in his conceptualisation of it and naturally he needs to be referenced.
 
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Liselle

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Except it's not clear to me that Karcher's referring to 59 when he says "Bright Presence." As I said I don't have his book to look for myself, but comparing it to Hilary's, I wonder if it's actually hexagram 58 he's calling "Bright Presence." In other words hexagram 58 is the Bright Presence that's scattered in 59.

From https://ctext.org/book-of-changes/xu-gua (thank you for the link), their Xugua (Sequence text) for 58 is:

Dui denotes pleasure and satisfaction. This pleasure and satisfaction (begins) afterwards to be dissipated, and hence Dui is followed by Huan.
(My_key will know this but other people may not: Dui is 58's name, Huan is 59's.)

Substituting hexagram numbers:
"58 denotes pleasure and satisfaction. 58 (begins) afterwards to be dissipated, and hence 58 is followed by 59."


This is all wrong, sorry, ignore please. Trojina has very kindly copied out more from Karcher's Total I Ching for me, and straightened me out.
 
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Liselle

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Crossed posts with Trojina's post #18 - or I was editing this one as she was posting - or something. Sorry for the confusion.
I agree with her that our main point is please just let us know who you're quoting from. Doesn't have to be a complicated academic citation (heaven forbid).

However - as I started thinking about this more - I suppose I probably do disagree with part of your conclusion about Extevan's reading. But that's separate from the attribution issue, and anyway I'm not terribly sure of my own conclusion and of course we can each have our own.




You (My_key) may very well be completely clear about that in your own mind, but it's not clear from reading your post without any other explanation.

When you say

59 meaning ' the Bright Presence breaks through'
it's not clear whether that means:
  • 59 is the Bright Presence, the thing that breaks through, or
  • 59 is the act of breaking through
I think it's the latter, but it's important to know which, not least because maybe it implies not that "New, bright things are about to happen for you," but quite the opposite, that "leaving hastily now" (Extevan's question) will mean dispersing/ scattering/ making formless Dui (joy/happiness).

I'm very much not sure of that conclusion, since a relating hexagram isn't always or even usually "the result."

[Edit - "not sure" is right. :paperbag: All of that is wrong, hence crossed out. See previous post no. 16, too.

For better or worse, I don't think it changes what I think the reading's saying overall, since my notions about that don't depend on the Pair or the Sequence. Of course my notions could well be wrong, just for different reasons.]

I suppose if I hazard a guess at a conclusion, I'd say something like you (Extevan) are asking about leaving, and as a comment about leaving Yi says:
'Cannot master this argument,
Returning and taking up the mandate.
With a change of heart, peaceful constancy is good fortune.'

...so it sounds to me like "Returning" means not leaving, and what results in good fortune is a "change of heart" about leaving. In other words, change your mind, don't leave (at least not hastily), return (stay, settle) with peaceful constancy.
 
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my_key

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Moderator note: off-topic discussion about crediting authors has been moved here.
I would like to commend the moderators from removing the posts that took the topic off track. It is the right thing to do.

I would also like to extend my unreserved apologies to Extevan for the posts I made that contributed to the attention of this thread being diverted away from his question. That is disrespectful and is not something that I intended. My intent is to bring helpful insights in any thread I contribute to and on this occasion I allowed my good intentions to be diverted.
You (My_key) may very well be completely clear about that in your own mind, but it's not clear from reading your post without any other explanation.

I'm very much not sure of that conclusion, since a relating hexagram isn't always or even usually "the result."
I'll repeat here that I am not clear on all the content of all my original post here and the only person that deserves to be and can be clear about their question is the querent. My interpretations are intended to plant a few seeds to bring that about - as I'm sure you or anyone else that posts does.

My interpretation of 6.4 <> 59 is not based in Hex 59 being 'the result'. I agree with you that is is very unusual if it is. My interpretations are based 99% of the time on the relating hexagram being the context i.e the soup that forms the setting for the event in question. Or even, the overarching aspect that needs to be embraced for the reading to be fully understood.

Hex 59 was the particular place in the reading that Extevan was finding difficulty in understanding so maybe my posting of the Bright Presence term without some sort of explanation was not helpful. I'll attempt to remedy that here.

Hex 59 is the context - holding an overarching principle that 'the Bright Presence breaks through' - there is a context that underneath all that is happening something bright and new will become apparent for you.

Bright Presence for me carries a sense of the 'Divine Spark Within'; the 'Higher Self' or the 'I Am' or something akin to that.
And God said unto Moses, I Am That I Am: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I Am hath sent me unto you. Exodus 3:14 (KJV)
What Extevan has been experiencing and has been holding all this while, is as Thomas Cleary says in The Buddhist I Ching of Hex 59 (and I'll paraphrase here) something is leading you towards success. However, sacrifices still have to be made to the ancestral shrine. Ancient behaviours ancient ways of thinking need to be addressed before things can be truly and correctly in place for you.
That is the soup that you are swimming around in and that you need to understand. I'm glad to have added this as it does provide a stepping stone towards the Karcher quote.


The Primary hexagram Hex 6 is described by Cleary ( p42) as " Contention; there is a blockage of truth" conveying similar messages to Karcher's 'there are no connections'.

The best practice advised for you to take by Hex 6 is
"The superior person begins to make plans
Before he takes actions" (Alfred Huang)
Although I had not accessed these references when I made the original post I think that they provide a level of support for a Karcher based perspective.
My original reply (to save people scrolling up)
Leaving hastily is not a way to connect to this situation. New, bright things are about to happen for you. What is happening to you at the moment is calling for you to really understand the wider context.

You will / are / have been tested to find ways of being at peace in your world and although things have/ are/ will be likely to get worse before they get better. But hang on in there. Keep doing all the good and right things you have learnt. That is what is good for you.
..... of course what I have written here may still not mean anything like this for you Extevan

I suppose if I hazard a guess at a conclusion, I'd say something like you (Extevan) are asking about leaving, and as a comment about leaving Yi says:
'Cannot master this argument,
Returning and taking up the mandate.
With a change of heart, peaceful constancy is good fortune.'

...so it sounds to me like "Returning" means not leaving, and what results in good fortune is a "change of heart" about leaving. In other words, change your mind, don't leave (at least not hastily), return (stay, settle) with peaceful constancy.
I'm so pleased that you are seeing the reading conclusions differently to me. That is what provides the deep richness and great beauty of Shared Readings. Extevan, and any other who finds there way to this thread, now has different perspectives to consider or pick meaningful bits from for them.

Take Care
 
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Trojina

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A follow up thread
 

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