61. Chung Fu / Inner Truth

[maremaria]

Maria, Speaking of Dolphins as being wombfish. The womb - uturus has everything to do with blood - the yin in our body. And according to Chinese TCM theory breast milk is blood without the colour red.
The colour red comes from the heart. But in Chinese Phylosophy love has to do with the Liver and blood and not with the heart. The heart has to do with propriety.
The virtue of the Liver is humankindness , the possibility to love other people. So the breast milk is love from the mother on a personal level.
When our blood is strong than the Hun - our etheric soul has a place to stay and the we can be kind to other people.

And in 61 the yin lines 3 and 4 are protected through the other 4 lines.

Frank

Very interesting Frank !!! thanks for sharing.

 

[maremaria]

Charly,

for you

http://www.constellationsofwords.com/Constellations/Delphinus.html

http://www.metrum.org/measures/dedication.htm

somewhere in the second link says :
"He concluded that the African is Delphos, and the three other objects represent a pun on the name: they are a delphis, “dolphin, seaswine,” a delphys, “vagina, womb,” and a delphos, “pig.”"


delphos= “pig.”" never heard about it , so not sure about how correct it is

 

[diamanda]

I've never heard of this either, how interesting! I just checked the Liddell-Scott
dictionary, according to that: delphax (δέλφαξ) is a 'young pig'.

 

[rosada]

THE LINES

61.1
Nine at the beginning means:

Being prepared brings good fortune.
If there are secret designs it is disquieting.

-Wilhelm

 

[pantherpanther]

Hex 61
"The wind blows over the lake and stirs the surface of the water. Thus visible effects of the invisible manifest themselves, The hexagram consists of firm lines above and below, while it is open in the center.

This indicates a heart free of prejudices and therefore open to truth.

On the other hand, each of the two trigrams has a firm line in the middle; this indicates the force of inner truth in the influences they represent.

The attributes of the two trigrams are: above, gentleness, forbearance toward inferiors; below, joyousness in obeying superiors. Such conditions create the basis of a mutual confidence that makes achievements possible.
The character fu ("truth") is actually the picture of a bird's foot over a fledgling. It suggests the idea of brooding. An egg is hollow. The light giving power must work to quicken it from outside, but there must be a germ of life within, if life is to be awakened. far-reaching speculations can be linked with these ideas."
-Wilhelm


I see an analogy of "truth" in this hexagram with "conscience" or "benevolence," which for Confucius is a universal force that is innate in humans and also can be cultivated. This is central to his teaching. In Chinese, Rén is composed of two parts representing "persons" and "two",respectively. There is a right relation between persons ("co-humanity") , and a right relation between humanity and heaven to be cultivated impartially . Wilhelm offers the image of the egg which receives energy from without and develops a germ within.

 

[charly]

...delphos= “pig.”" never heard about it , so not sure about how correct it is

Maria:
Thank you very much!

From the first link you posted:

Delphi (from Greek delphos, meaning a womb), is often translated as the Omphalos,

Say, 中 zhong1, the middle / the center

I have to read all with more attention.

Yours,

Charly

 

[charly]

I've never heard of this either, how interesting! I just checked the Liddell-Scott
dictionary, according to that: delphax (δέλφαξ) is a 'young pig'.

Hi, Diamanda:

Very much important, even more connections. Piglets ↔ Dolphins.

Your grateful,

Charly

 

[charly]

thoughts on 61 . .
I wonder if people see in the image of 61 a wind instrument . . the sound that comes out of it does not belong to the breath but neither to the instrument's empty cavity . . it is the manifestation of their effect on one another (sometimes this is not as easy as it seems -anyone ever tried to make a sound out of a saxophone?)...

Hi Dora:

More stuff for the greek connection. I neve saw a flute in H.61, but I go to look for it. I remember percussion (drums, maybe also a tabor), singing... Do you believe that we can consider voce as a wind instrument? Some authors even heard a cock crow, also music.

Yours,

Charly

 

[charly]

... The virtue of the Liver is humankindness , the possibility to love other people. So the breast milk is love from the mother on a personal level.
... And in 61 the yin lines 3 and 4 are protected through the other 4 lines.

Hi, Frank:

Very good, Frank, do you consider that H.61 can have something to do with LOVE or with CHILD CARE? I wonder if wombs are YIN or YANG, many old readings mixed in my
memory.

I believe tha all H.61 happens in the night, maybe being 61.6 the end of the night.

Yours,

Charly

 

[meng]

Do you believe that we can consider voce as a wind instrument? Some authors even heard a cock crow, also music.

chuckle

I used wooden flutes in 60 to represent delineation and pitch (each flute is in a different key). I believe it fits 61 too - wind over wood. The sound is fluid and moody like water, the number of notes are limited, like the shores.

 

[frank_r]

Hi, Frank:

Very good, Frank, do you consider that H.61 can have something to do with LOVE or with CHILD CARE? I wonder if wombs are YIN or YANG, many old readings mixed in my
memory.

I believe tha all H.61 happens in the night, maybe being 61.6 the end of the night.

Yours,

Charly

Hello Charly,

Yes I think that it has to do with love and what love is stronger than love for a new born child?
And a womb - uturus is definitly yin, but with a strong yang function. As being yin in nourishing energy. The womb - bao has the same name as the pericard - the envelop or protection wrapped around the heart. The womb is the vital protection or envelope that is protecting(yang) new live.

In Chinese TCM theory every month of the baby in the mother is connected with a organ energy.
Almost all the energies the mother is giving to the child, but the heart energy she is not giving to the child. That's the energy that she cannot give, that energy the child already has from itself.

I always found it very interesting that love has to do with the Liver energy - the gut energy. That is more in our belly erea than our heart erea. Because with the gut you know when to protect and when to be open. You know who and what you have to nourish.

But why do you think that 61 happens in the night?

Frank

 

[rodaki]

hi Charly

uhmm . . well, it doesn't have to be a flute (although Bruce described it beautifully -btw, isn't lake metal?)
my music metaphor was a way to understand how the immaterial manifests . . 61 for me feels too much like it is there but you can't really grasp it -maybe this is where trust/faith comes in?
I guess all art revolves around this idea . . of course the question in this case would be: do we believe what art shows? (final decisions suspended . .)

(all photography by Chema Madoz)


I'm also thinking questions like: to whom does the shadow belong? the wall, the light, the figure??
or to whom does a reflection belong? to the water, the object, the one who sees it?

the dolphin idea seems to stand far better, although it is shocking to read the research on their violent behavior . . 61.6 perhaps? (off topic: out of curiosity I did an enquiry to Yi about it, it replied 1.1,4,5>18 and 1.5>14 as further explanation . . well, definitely an intriguing answer . .).
I think the cock crow in the 6th line is because instead of wind we get K'an (uh-ooooh . .)

anyway, I'd love to read people's takes on 61.1 . . it kind of reminded me Borges' Circular Ruins but I think we have a lot of reading to do in this thread already


p.s.: Charly, you mentioned something about the greek connection going as far back as Zhou's time? would be great if you could elaborate on this when you feel like it . .

take care!

 

[meng]

uhmm . . well, it doesn't have to be a flute (although Bruce described it beautifully -btw, isn't lake metal?)

Yes, wind is wood. I got carried away by the melody, lol. :bag:

 

[rodaki]

Yes, wind is wood. I got carried away by the melody, lol. :bag:

yeah, well, it was a nice one . .

 

[rosada]

The force of inner truth depends chiefly on inner stability and preparedness. From this state of mind springs the correct attitude toward the outer world. But if a man should try to cultivate secret relationships of a special sort, it would deprive him of his inner independence. The more reliance he places on the support of others, the more uneasy and anxious he will become as to whether these secret ties are really tenable. In this way inner peace and the force of inner truth are lost.
-Wilhelm

 

[Trojina]

why is there a greek connection to the I Ching and why is it shocking that dolphins are violent..they are animals aren't they, all animals have aggression to defend territory etc don't they...still i guess if word gets out all the dolphin posters in all the new age shops will have to come down lol

Theres plenty of violence in the Yi if you ask me thats often airbrushed out in new agey commentary. I mean theres alot about battle, blood, nose cutting, feet being cut off..being bound in thorns.. and in 61 execution , though admittedly here execution is held off. I don't think the Yi is a text that promotes upholding peace at all costs, if it promotes anything. I guess i don't think its shocking that dolphins can be violent either

i don't know what 'borges circular ruins' are or why they are like 61.1...I'll google it

 

[charly]

THE LINES
61.1
Nine at the beginning means:
Being prepared brings good fortune.
If there are secret designs it is disquieting.
-Wilhelm

Ros:

Maybe Dolphins belong to the wider PIGLORE in the YI, but going to W/B:

Characters, pinyin, usual meanings, W/B:

虞 yu2: worries / to expect / tobe forewarned / [BEING] PREPARED (1)
吉 ji2: lucky / [BRINGS] GOOD FORTUNE

有 you3: to have / there is / there are / [IF] THERE ARE
他 ta1: he / she / it / they / other / elsewhere / SECRET DESIGNS (2)
不 bu4: not / no / negative prefix / [IT IS] DIS ...
燕 yan4 : swallow bird /comfort /to feast / to enjoy / ... QUIETING

I wonder why SECRET DESGINS. Of course, I have an idea ...

(to be continued)

Yours,

Charly



______________________________
(1) it's said that the signific component is the TIGER.Wu Jing Nuan says that this tiger appears only under good government.
(2) reading LiSe I saw that the character has the shape of a KNOT OF SNAKES

 

[Trojina]

I take 'secret designs' as simply having private wishes to gain more through favours given. I think 61.1 counsels against trying to cultivate special relations with people to get 'in' with them. I think 61.1 warns against manipulative thinking..the opposite of course of inner truth...and i take inner truth as that which needs no words to be understood such as the intention of kindness for example.

Infact thats what i think the whole pigs and fishes thing is about. Like Frank pointed out it isn't to say how clever or stupid they are but that they do not have words yet can understand through their 'hearts' or not even that but something reaches them Most animals know without words who intends them harm and who will help them (of course the tiger doesn't much care either way ) thats as simple as i think the pigs and fishes comment is...inner truth is such that it is known even by those beings who do not have words or intellect as we know it. I think thats what Wilhelm meant.

I notice 61.1 comes up often around questions of expectations about what one may get if one 'plays their cards right'. I think 61.1 says something like 'don't play your cards, don't calculate, what is visibly on offer is actually what there is. If you accept this good,,,if you are expecting more you won't get it., or at least you can't bank on getting it.

 

[Trojina]

Can't resist, talking of animals and words and understanding....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=beCYGm1vMJ0

 

[maremaria]

Can't resist, talking of animals and words and understanding....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=beCYGm1vMJ0

lol

 

[maremaria]

Is there such a thing as truth, absolute truth ? Some people say that the truth is relative. My truth is Me , the perception I have about matter according to all the things makes me, and likewise your truth is You and every makes you.

When Meng post that information about dolphins, I googled and found that a scientist that spend many years studying dolphins he couldn’t believe the new finding. He was surprised by the new facts. So the truth till then , was a kind of as-far-as-I-know truth.

Perhaps “secret designs” is something as Trojan said. All those things that stand between the truth we can see and the actual truth. All the things that create a veil, illusion, misconception, expectations, conditions.

Behind what we say “this is it” might be a “ this is not it”. I have a reading about a very important matter and I’m a bit lost because I have lay on the table all the possible meanings. I believe that some assumption of that this reading wants to tell me are right and some others not. But in order to reach to the “true” answer I have to doubt for everything I have write. Not doubt as mistrust but as to question. Delay execution.

The fan yao of 61.1 is 59, dissolve. How can we achieve that if not by doubting, questioning if what we see is what actually is or if it is an illusion?

Which is the path towards inner truth , in your opinion. If there is a path…Well, must be a path, to go inside that egg and see if there is a germ.

Would like to hear your opinions.

Maria

 

[rodaki]

why is there a greek connection to the I Ching and why is it shocking that dolphins are violent..they are animals aren't they, all animals have aggression to defend territory etc don't they...still i guess if word gets out all the dolphin posters in all the new age shops will have to come down lol

Theres plenty of violence in the Yi if you ask me thats often airbrushed out in new agey commentary. I mean theres alot about battle, blood, nose cutting, feet being cut off..being bound in thorns.. and in 61 execution , though admittedly here execution is held off. I don't think the Yi is a text that promotes upholding peace at all costs, if it promotes anything. I guess i don't think its shocking that dolphins can be violent either

i don't know what 'borges circular ruins' are or why they are like 61.1...I'll google it

hey Trojan,

whoever said that there's no violence in Yi or that Yi's purpose is world peace??? the peaceful approach is one of my personal choice, not because I don't see or don't want to see violence, but because I see too much of it and I choose not to perpetuate it whenever I can . . I mean, just some days ago a friend came to our appointment without his coat which was burnt when he tried to help someone who was poured gasoline and lit up in the middle of the street . . violence is too much around if you ask me and I can't raise a brow to it and go on . .

and well, yeah, it is part of nature, but if you read the research on dolphin violence you might be also surprised because it doesn't seem to serve any of the usual reasons for aggressive behavior . .

Circular Ruins is a short story by Jorge Luis Borges . . thinking abt 61.1 I got reminded of it -loose association perhaps

p.s: btw I'm not really sure about the new age associations for dolphins cause I have never ever ever bought or read a new age book, it's only thru links posted here that I gained a rough idea of them . . I have some sort of aversion to their discourse (no offense intended to those who find it valuable, it just doesn't seem to work for me, but then most of poetry doesn't do it for me either, so . . go figure . .)

Maria loved your post, lots of food for thought . . :bows:

 

[rosada]

61.1
Nine at the beginning:

a) Being prepared brings good fortune.
If there are secret designs it is disquieting.

b) the preparedness of the nine at the beginning brings good fortune: the will has not yet changed.

The character translated as "prepared" originally meant the sacrifice offered on the day after a funeral, and from this it acquires the meaning of preparation.

The character YEN, "quiet" (in disquieting"), really means the swallow, but from ancient times on it has also been used in combinations in the same sense of AN, "quiet." This line is strong and dependable, inwardly serene and prepared. Its will is not influenced from without. Secret designs are suggested by its relationships of correspondence to the six in the fourth place. But in the hexagram of INNER TRUTH no secret exclusive relationships should occur.
-Wilhelm

 

[rosada]

"Being prepared brings good fortune"
""The character translated as "prepared" originally meant the sacrifice offered on the day after a funeral."

So is this line/hexagram having to do with death and funerals? Did 60. Limitation describe the last boundary between the outer world of earthly life and now death, funerals, sacrifice and the soul entering the world of the collective unconscious?
rosada

 

[maremaria]

Circular Ruins is a short story by Jorge Luis Borges . . thinking abt 61.1 I got reminded of it -loose association perhaps

..............
Maria loved your post, lots of food for thought . . :bows:

Thanks Dora, and thanks for the Borges' story link.

Interesting story ! read it once, in a hurry. It is full of symbols imo. Need to read it again and again... That games he plays with the dreams its exciting. You lose track when the dream stops and where is reality.

And i love the last sentence

" With relief, with humiliation, with terror, he understood that he also was an illusion, that someone else was dreaming him."

 

[maremaria]

Rosada, care to say more about it.

There is that thing within which trys to connect with what is out there? Looking at Whilhlem text wonder if the connection between people is directed (from one to another) or its through something else, that exists out there ?

 

[maremaria]

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Meng, from here: ​

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http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showpost.php?p=100714&postcount=104​

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A person’s life grows within a capsule.

After birth, the capsule enlarges.

Entering adulthood, the capsule either dissolves or hardens.

Once it hardens, it’s very difficult to dissolve.

Once it dissolves, it can harden again.

It takes continuous release​

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Since I read it, it has stuck in my mind.
The capsule reminds me also a coccon or the 61 egg. But it also can fit t the “secret designs” of 61.1 . And that continuous release could be, the way I see it of course , is the continuous growing and dissolving process too to diminish the “disquieting” causes.

Hmm, better stop analysing it… Just wanted to say that I see a association with line 1 here and perhaps it belongs here too.

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[charly]

... I always found it very interesting that love has to do with the Liver energy - the gut energy. That is more in our belly erea than our heart erea. ... But why do you think that 61 happens in the night? Frank

Hi, Frank:
I like too much ypur wordf.

About heart an liver, to love with the guts sounds very passionate.

About the night, H.61 results vey oniric for me, dreams occurs in the night, the crane is calling in the shade, I believe immediately before the night, the horse vanished when the moon is almost full, during the night, the cok crows whe the night is almost ending.

I believe that is about a journey through the night, begining with a warning and ending with the comsecuences, maybe another warning, returning from the journey is not sure, things can fail.

Yours,

Charly

 

[charly]

... of course the question in this case would be: do we believe what art shows?...
... I'm also thinking questions like: to whom does the shadow belong? the wall, the light, the figure?? or to whom does a reflection belong? ...
... Charly, you mentioned something about the greek connection going as far back as Zhou's time?...

Dora:
Of course that art shows.

Your are speaking like an oracle or maybe asking like a Sphinx.

For the attached images:

1) The important is not visible for the eyes, maybe even with the help of glasses. The image of Pan-Dora´s box.

2) The wood is a mirror for the match, both are missing the fire, because passed or because not yet arrived. The image of desire. Maybe the destiny of wood is to surrend to it, wood means material instead of spiritual, it means bed, house, roof, ship... say home. Also means fire and water.

3) A taoist hat. its value resides in the hollow part. To whom the head belongs, to the body or to the hat? The head belongs to the hat when the body is deprived of his rights, i.e. when the neck is cut-off, if not always belongs to the body. Maybe the image of lonelyness.

All belong to us, but at the same time nothing belongs to us, all that we have is a loan, but we can enjoy it while it lasts.

It passed to me that many times reading the YI it reminds me of some Iliad, Oddissey or even Aristophanes, not speaking of Aesop.I haven´t invented these connections, then they have to exist not only in my mind.

Zhous (and Shangs) were people of bronze age and I remember the noise that made the bronze armors when a warrior died in the Iliad. Old greeks arrive to Greece from the east, Zhous arrive to China from the west. Maybe in the origin both were not too far one from another. Both peoples have a patriarchal organization, both fight on chariots, both worshiped ancestors, both believe in male superiority, greeks didn´t found hidraulic states, Zhous have no hidraulic works prior to defeat the Shangs.

All in the world is connected, why not Zhous and old Greeks? As anybody knows greeks practiced divination.

Maybe the same passes whith almost all the people we know, all them had to be connected.

All the best,

Charly

 

[heylise]

Did anyone read Harmen's article about fu, sincerity?

A big difference between now and 'back then' was that we have a relative safety here in the west. You expect to live in a house, to have enough to eat, not to get killed for whatever reason, there are laws, police, and street-lanterns at night. Back in Zhou time things were different. We can talk about inner truth, but back then people were not that much interested in 'inner'. I think they knew about it, but it was not that important. More important was if you had to eat, could win your next war (Yi was most of all for the rulers) and if you would get a son.

Fu, sincerity, is according to Harmen "the confidence that the king inspires in his people. That is the quality of fu: through sincerity you inspire confidence or trust in others, the others have confidence in you. Fu is a quality", and also: "sincerity (genuineness, naturalness, authenticity), which enables to connect with the goals that are set".

A quality which is essential for inspiring others, reaching goals, getting allies. Bringing lots of good fortune: pigs and fishes are symbols of wealth, prosperity and luck.