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62 and bad luck

M

meng

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Being generally optimistic, and not being one given to reading hexagrams as being especially good or bad omens, I have come to the understanding that 62 could indeed plain and simply represent bad luck. I'm not saying it always does, but it could.

I've never been entirely comfortable with my understanding of 62. I understand aspects of tending to details and keeping a low profile, of not undertaking great things. But what I didn't understand was why this hexagram had shown up after a happenstancial injury or misfortune to me (would I mourn my own death? for example). The reason is, 62 sometimes just means means bad luck, as in getting stung 5 times by venomous scorpions.

The other things still apply, i.e. taking care of details, washing, icing, researching treatment.

I've had bark scorpion stings before. Painful, but not critical. Two weeks ago, an hour after I went to bed, I was awakened from 5 bark scorpion stings: 3 on the back of the left hand, 1 in the palm of the right hand (probably grabbed it in my sleep), and 1 on my belly. It messed me up pretty bad, never felt pain like that of the sting in the palm, which hit directly on a nerve reflex center. Some effects haven't left yet. I saw and killed both scorpions once I was up with the lights on. They often hunt at night in pairs.

Anyway, so I'm sitting, wondering if I should call 911 or just ride it out, as I've done twice before. This was nothing like times before, but what to do? I ask Yi, and get 62. :mad: excuse me? 62? Ok, I'll just tend to treating it best I can, and not worry. Hours pass, and life's still a bitch with pain, now making its way through my nervous system. I ask Yi again, and it said 62 and something.. don't remember the lines or relating now. Ok... I go on in small ways, best I can. By morning all feeling had left about 50% of each hand and fingers. I don't recall when I asked again, but I know that 3 of the 4 total readings included 62.

I've had a couple weeks to ponder this event, in connection with 62; never feeling resolved completely as to its meaning. This has happened before with this hexagram, and I was on it trail. Then, yesterday, while just looking at the hexagram image, I saw it. I looked at Bradford's and LiSe's translations (always an illuminating comparative for me), and then tried to write it with a different emphasis: that upon ones own misfortune. I typically think of 62's smallness as something I have toward someone's misfortune (i.e. a death or great loss), but not my own. Now I understand it could as well refer to ones own bad luck.

Anyhoo, going to throw this line out here for Brad, LiSe, Charly or anyone else who enjoys translation questions.

Excessive smallness:
The noble one meets misfortune with respect.

There's also a shamanistic (21) side to this, in that the scorpion stings instilled a deep and profound respect in me for this prehistoric being; a fellowship, as odd as that might sound.
 

heylise

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Beautiful post! Well, what happened is not of course, but what you make out of that. Love that last line, about fellowship.

I think you hit the mark with your view on 62. I never thought of that. But of course it applies to one's own (inner AND outer) affairs as well, not only how one reacts to affairs which come from elsewhere. With all other hexagrams I always put that too in the mix, why not here...

Going to figure out how I can make that clear on my page... I think it is important.

Thanks for your story!
 

hattah

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wonderful post meng. Given me food for thought as 62 has always been at best hazy for me. I appreciate your way of thinking about it. If we all met our misfortunes with respect our way would be much clearer (though in your case maybe not less painful).

peace
 

willowfox

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I cannot see any bad luck associated with Hex 62 and in your story whether to call 911 or not, Hex 62 suggested that you show restraint, stay at home it it will be okay.

There is no indication that you were in mortal danger or anything, only pain which Hex 62 suggests that you just grin and bear it, as the superior man does not make a fuss, he bears his pain quietly.
 

my_key

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Hey Meng

A great story of transition for you, that does have a real sense of 21.
To add some of my comments are not detract from your words, as for me bad luck may not come into focus in 62 more every cloud has a silver lining.
62 may not be so much about 'bad luck' as that the bad luck is a catalyst for good luck. By staying with what is happening to you, however painful and horrible that may be. By facing the horror, the terror by staying small in the face of enormous provocation that is where 62 sits. It sounds like you have played this in spades.

The good luck from the bad luck comes in the form of the new inner knowing and that association may satisfy you on all sorts of different levels and from what you have told us it appears that that fellowship has been prompted a few times before and the connection not quite made. So they brought up the double whammy brigade this time.

Some big hugs going out to you and I hope that you are suitably recovered now.:hug:

Mike
 
M

meng

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Thanks for your comments, all.

Wf, what you say was my interpretation at the time. It was afterward that I searched for what I knew was always missing from 62's usual translation and interpretation. Also, it's easy to say there was no danger, but that's not factual. One bark scorpion sting is considered dangerous to older folks and those with compromised hearts, both which apply. My research said to call 911 or go to the emergency room for anti venom immediately, if there were anything other than mild symptoms. Multiply that times 5, and it becomes a potentially life threatening matter. I guess you had to be in my condition to appreciate the severity.

Actually, my emphasis (title) should have been more centralized on the aspect of meeting misfortune with respect than simply on the bad luck aspect (along the lines of Mike's comments), though bad luck is also clearly demonstrated in lines 1, 3 and 6.
 
M

meng

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Another little comparative. LiSe describes the symbols of 62 as:

XIAO GUO: The first character, xiao: 3 grains of rice or sand - small. The second, guo, is a pass in a mountain, also meaning the completion of an action. 2 the steps, 3 the foot, together the crossing. 4 Is a skeleton, maybe the cut in the mountain-ridge. GUO4: to pass, to pass by, cross over, sign of past or perfect tense, beyond the ordinary or proper limit, transgress, excess, fault, to blame.

To Psalm 23:

Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil

That I can easily relate with the experience.
 

charly

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...
Anyhoo, going to throw this line out here for Brad, LiSe, Charly or anyone else who enjoys translation questions.
... There's also a shamanistic (21) side to this, in that the scorpion stings instilled a deep and profound respect in me for this prehistoric being; a fellowship, as odd as that might sound.
Meng:

I always wondered why H.62 sentence ends wid BIG LUCK while lines are full of BAD OMENS.

I believe that there are two keys for better understand this apparent contradiction:

62.4
勿用永貞
wu4 yong4 yong3 zhen1
DO NOT APPLY PERMANENT OMENS
Don't get caught by fixed meanings

62.6
凶是謂災眚
xiong1 shi4 wei4 zai1 sheng3
«OMINOUS» IS SPOKEN OF CALAMITOUS ERRORS
眚 meaning ERROR is composed of upper 生 [shēng] NATURE and lower 目 [mù] EYE, maybe ERROR seen as a WRONG POINT OF VIEW.​

Not fixed meanings, not always bad. And, perhaps, a matter of points of view.

Say, you're a lucky guy, you have survived two pricky SCORPIONS, there is indeed a scorpion in 62.2 [厲 li4= danger], but maybe the worse scorpions are that of our own lust, a matter of point of view.

About the PROFOUND RESPECT, your conduct was not a matter of justice from the point of view of these little creatures but matter of prevention from your part. For killing the two scorpions you don't become a scorpion anihilator.

For 過 guo4 I have another etymology: at the left to walk, PATH, at the right BONE / SCAPULA over a MOUTH, maybe «the path of the speaking skulls» or «the teachings of the scapulae oracle», say ANCIENT HIDDEN WISDOM, to take care of oneself without preconceived theories, moral commands and so. LITTLE MISTAKES / LITTLE ADVANTAGES.

Temporary translations waiting H.62 thread:

62. Feast. Profitable omen. Able for little affairs, not able for big affairs. Flying Bird loses his song. Non-suitable the High, suitable the Low. BIG LUCK !

62.1: Flying Bird acts fiercely.
[We, maybe you, maybe I myself, are in the wrong side. 過 guo4. 1st. warning.]

62.2: Passing one's ancestor, meeting one's ancestress. Not reaching one's Lord, meeting with his minister. NO BLAME.
[Use the access you have, apply the means you have. 1st. advice.]

62.3: Do not pass, guard against it. Followers maybe hurt it. OMINOUS.
[ Beware, don't try to attack. Bad thing. 2nd. warning.]

62.4: NO BLAME in not passing it, meeting it. Going danger must beware. Do not apply permanent omens.
[Nothing wrong if conscious. No fixed meanings. 2nd. advice.]

62.5: Secret teaching: no rain from MY/OUR western place. A Ducal shot catches (even) those in a hole.
[Who is speaking? Nobody can conceal, nobody's exempt. 3rd. warning.]

62.6: Don't meet, pass it. Flying Birds leave it. «OMINOUS» is spoke of calamitous errors.
[Fly away. Beware of wrong points of view. 3rd. advice.]

Yours,


Charly
 
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bradford

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I think this story is relevant to both your subject of luck and to 62.
Luck is such a small thing, like we are.

The Daoist Farmer
Adapted from the Huainanzi, circa 139 BCE

A farmer named Sei Weng owned a beautiful mare which was praised far
and wide. One day this wonderful horse disappeared. The people of his village
offered sympathy to Sei Weng for his great misfortune. Sei Weng said simply,
"What makes you think this is bad?"

A few days later the lost mare returned, followed by a whole herd of wild
horses, led by a beautiful wild stallion. The village congratulated Sei Weng for his
great good fortune. He said, "What makes you think this is good?"

Some time later, Sei Weng's only son, while riding the stallion, fell off and
broke his leg. The village people once again expressed their sympathy at Sei
Weng's misfortune. Sei Weng again said, "What makes you think this is bad?"

Soon after, a war broke out and all the young men of the village except Sei
Weng's lame son were drafted and sent into a horrible battle. The village people
were amazed as Sei Weng's good luck. But Sei Weng only replied, "What makes
you think this is good?"
 
M

meng

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Charly and Brad, appreciate your interesting points and stories. Have to say, though, not much seems to be connecting with the specifics of 1) bad luck (other than bad luck isn't really bad luck, it's a matter of perspective, etc.) or 2) meeting misfortune with respect.
 

bradford

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Charly and Brad, appreciate your interesting points and stories. Have to say, though, not much seems to be connecting with the specifics of 1) bad luck (other than bad luck isn't really bad luck, it's a matter of perspective, etc.) or 2) meeting misfortune with respect.

Have you considered that it might be giving you permission to cry?
and complain? Like, to a doctor?
Maybe it's circumstances where we have to admit we aren't all-powerful.
For me, 62 is much more about humility than 15 is, the respect for
powers and forces greater than ourselves.
 

bamboo

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Meng,
I re-read the posts, but I am not sure if you implied what you actually did...did you go to the emergency room? I know it has been two weeks, but just curious how you handled it?

and OUCH!! my god. you poor man. If I see a spider in my house, I go into spasms, I cant imagine the experience of seeing two scorpions near me, let alone being bitten. It doesnt much help to think of other perspectives when bad luck like this strikes
BUt I really like Brad's last statement about recognizing our smallness in the face of such things. In a certain way, it seems like maybe the Yi was being a comforter to you, like a parent who remains real calm and easy when a child gets a catastrophic injury or is really sick. Like maybe it was bending down to say, "Ok, easy pal, lets be calm, lets handle this one little step at a time, this is not a big deal ( in the grand scheme of things) but it sure is a bummer."

I hope you are recovering nicely.
 

Sparhawk

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Bruce, I'm not sure where you've got this translation:

Excessive smallness:
The noble one meets misfortune with respect.

It isn't Brad's or LiSe's. Now, what you quote comes from the Image. The Chinese text is below:

象曰‧山上有雷‧ 小過‧ 君子以行過乎恭‧ 喪過乎哀‧ 用過乎儉‧

There is no mention of misfortune in the Image and that should be emphasized. The text in bold give the general idea that the Junzi, according to a trying social situation, will exceed in outward respect. As a fresh example, think of Louis Gates and his recent arrest. IMHO, he lost his cool (frustration based on a well known history of abuses by authorities towards minorities; tiredness after a long flight; whatever we might find as a rightful justification for the conduct), the end result was he stepped outside of a Junzi behavior for that given situation and it showed in the results. Here and in our days, the whole affair is a media circus and not much else. In imperial times, the tantrum at authorities would have, at worst, cost him his life. So, the image shows a proper behavior as opposed to a reaction.

Sorry to hear about your encounter with the bark scorpions. I remember reading of your previous encounters. I suppose house scorpions beat cockroaches and mice in an exotic house-pest contest... :D But seriously, I'm amazed that the little critters are so ubiquitous in Arizona that they can roam inside houses like you describe. :eek:

Going back to 62, taking in consideration the whole of the text, for me describes, more than misfortune or bad luck, a call to be on guard for what's to come, or might come, and thus adjust one's behavior and actions accordingly. A call to be mindful of the background of a situation and not to focus narrowly on the forefront of it and thus risking missing its root causes or possible outcomes.

In your specific case with the scorpion stings--perhaps not yet over in its consequences--, next time something like this happens, where judgment could be impaired by pain, concern or fear, it is advisable that you deffer to "other authorities" in the matter and be treated. For me, this is what the Image could be telling you about showing "respect in excess": deferring judgment to another party.

I wish you get well soon.
 
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Sparhawk

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Oops, crossed posts with Brad. He was much more concise than I but that's what I had in mind, yes.
 

hollis

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Yes, hope you are better soon. Very unbelievable, so many scorpions in one night...shudder.
 

bamboo

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Going back to 62, taking in consideration the whole of the text, for me describes, more than misfortune or bad luck, a call to be on guard for what's to come, or might come, and thus adjust one's behavior and actions accordingly. A call to be mindful of the background of a situation and not to focus narrowly on the forefront of it and thus risking missing its root causes or possible outcomes.

In your specific case with the scorpion stings--perhaps not yet over in its consequences--, next time something like this happens, where judgment could be impaired by pain, concern or fear, it is advisable that you deffer to "other authorities" in the matter and be treated. For me, this is what the Image could be telling you about showing "respect in excess": deferring judgment to another party.

I wish you get well soon.

really like this.:bows:
 

bradford

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Even bugs can be bigger than we are? The tiny mosquito is by far the deadliest animal on Earth. Them small things they do preponderate.

Camping at Lake Havasu once, I woke up in the middle of the night with two of those crawling on me. It had been 124 degrees during the day. Felt exactly like James Bond in Dr No with the tarantula, so I did what he did. Was lucky to not get stung.
 

jilt

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thank you all for this very interesting thread, thank you Bruce,

In my experience 62 also has to do with transcedental experiences and all kinds of psychic communications, anyway, so it appeared in some cases to me.
So, witchcraft with all its elements of jalousy can be part of it. Witchcraft (no, no, of course no wicca.....sorry, sorry....) is considered the tool of the people without power, so, much of it is done in a conceiled way. In cases of witchcraft you can also think of the effect of witchcraft accusations and all its effects. In that sense the it is wise to look at the inner trigrams: wind and lake, interpreted in this witchcraft sense as subversive influence.
But in a neutral sense 62 is about communication of spirit, transference in psychological terms. This transference can only be a tool for the therapist when there is trust. So trustbuilding should be the logical companion with transference, else integrity will be lost in no time. That is working with small things, small steps.
In modern terms it could be internet or telephone. You meet someone, but not in flesh, nothing substantial is happening, but it has an effect. You have to take care not to be taken away by that illusion and understand it's effects are small. Only "real" people make lasting relations, with internetpersons it is much more difficult. In this you only have to look at all your doubs about this medium (the right word in the context) and its ebbings floodings here on clarity.
 
M

meng

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the respect for powers and forces greater than ourselves.

Ah, thanks, as this is one the two points I've tried to make.

Gang, thanks for your responses and good wishes. I'll respond when I've read them more thoroughly.
 
M

meng

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Bamboo, I toughed it out. No ER. I did call 911 in the morning, just to see what they would recommend. They wouldn't make a recommendation, only offer to send an ambulance; I thanked them and declined.

We're having a hot summer, even for Mohave County, and that's driving scorpions indoors. The Phoenix TV stations have even broadcast warnings. They're common in these parts, but become a problem in the extreme heat of summer. I found another one under a wash cloth only two days ago.

Luis, I didn't get that quote from anywhere. I wrote it only to question if the actual translation might be worded with the change of emphasis, during a discussion of 62 with LiSe. Your last comments ring true, and it's pretty much what was going through my mind at the time. That, combined with Wf's interpretation, actually, which is what created the bouncing ball question of whether to go or call for help, or not. Hence my second inquiring, receiving 62 again. Do you get a feel for the subject's (me) indecision during this time? So what you said makes sense as one of those conflicting voices, and along with Brad's comments (and bamboo's sentiment ;)), saying there's no shame in being vulnerable, and seeking help. That's the answer I didn't want to hear at the time (the answer I never want to hear). So I decided to hand my fate to the gods, so to speak... and somehow, the closest thing to the gods at the time was the scorpion (it's what was literally in me! one of the strangest sensations was that of scorpions running up and down inside my numb and tingling arms... pretty creepy). It's very easy for me to see how being on the business end of a dangerous creature can make the creature become iconic in the primitive mind. For me, only a couple of tiny critters. Imagine a cobra!

http://hinduonnet.com/fline/fl2122/stories/20041105003009000.htm

The village is infested with cobras. They can be found lying next to a person on his bed or curled up on the kitchen stool. The people are not scared of them. Even when bitten, the victim does not go to a doctor. Instead he or she takes a dip in the local pond, rubs the mud taken from the pond into the wound and fasts for a day. The next morning the victim is fit to work in the fields.

Bert, those subtle things you mention have been also a part of my 62 experiences. :bows:
 
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jilt

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Burt, those subtle things you mention have been also a part of my 62 experiences. :bows:

Yes Mung, indeed, but thinking about it, in the end indeed it's all about powers and forces bigger then us, also when the weak in the village take magic and wictchcraft as the only tool at hand for them: they have to deal with bigger forces higher in the picking-order.

Good luck and bad luck are also the forces that break the normal hierarchies -the bigger forces-. Luck is ethymologically related to loki, the big trickster-god of luck. Loki broke the rigid hierarchical structures of the other gods. about loki: http://www.octavia.net/vikings/loki.htm
 
M

meng

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Bert,

Interesting reflection on luck. You make an very strong point, about good as well bad luck creating difficulties. A stroke of good luck can cause all sorts of discontent where there was peace before. Have to watch that tricky Loki!
 
M

meng

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It also makes Brad's story, and his earlier post about admitting weakness, clearer to me.
 

heylise

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Meeting misfortune with respect

Beautiful and interesting thread.

Reading through the posts ... I agree with my_key about "The good luck from the bad luck comes in the form of the new inner knowing", but I think that goes for quite a number of hexagrams. Maybe even all of them. After 39 you learned a 39-lesson, after 28 a 28-lesson. And so on.

Bradford "For me, 62 is much more about humility than 15 is, the respect for
powers and forces greater than ourselves." Agree completely!!

Bamboo: "recognizing our smallness in the face of such things"

Luis: "Going back to 62, taking in consideration the whole of the text, for me describes, more than misfortune or bad luck, a call to be on guard for what's to come, or might come, and thus adjust one's behavior and actions accordingly." I agree, but I don't think that is the whole story of 62. One of the meanings of Xiao Guo is "small transgression". That is something which happened. You did (sometimes didn't) cause it yourself and now you have to bear the consequences. Or something or someone did it to you, committed an offense towards you. Obviously universe does not see scorpion stings as a Da Guo, big offense (hex. 28) because scorpions only sting as defense. You were the victim of a "Xiao Guo", even though the result was a big distress to you.

Misfortune is all around us, any moment something can hit us. The bird which is pursued by hunters has bad luck, but if it is clever and stays low, it will survive.

GUO4: to pass, to pass by, cross over, sign of past or perfect tense, beyond the ordinary or proper limit, transgress, excess, fault, to blame.
Fault: yours or another's.
Blame: so the meanings of 62 also include something which did happen to you. Blame points usually to someone else. I think that includes also bad luck, for which one blames fate or gods.
Very important seems the meaning of crossing over, something which has happened already and now you sit on the other side of the pass and are dealing with it, not that much with what is going to happen. No way to prevent it, you have to meet it. Passing that by is not such a good solution (lines 4 and 6).

[FONT=&quot]君子以行過乎恭[/FONT]
The noble one exceeds in respect in actions
Word by word: Junzi use move exceed at respect.
Meng's "meeting misfortune with respect" may not be the exact translation of this sentence, but I think it applies very well to the whole of 62.
 
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Sparhawk

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Luis: "Going back to 62, taking in consideration the whole of the text, for me describes, more than misfortune or bad luck, a call to be on guard for what's to come, or might come, and thus adjust one's behavior and actions accordingly." I agree, but I don't think that is the whole story of 62. One of the meanings of Xiao Guo is "small transgression". That is something which happened. You did (sometimes didn't) cause it yourself and now you have to bear the consequences. Or something or someone did it to you, committed an offense towards you. Obviously universe does not see scorpion stings as a Da Guo, big offense (hex. 28) because scorpions only sting as defense. You were the victim of a "Xiao Guo", even though the result was a big distress to you.

LiSe (I'll add the "Hi" right here not to bring bad memories of recent conversations... :D):

Yes, guo4 is used in lots of compounds indicating past events. However, it could also indicate present and even future events. For example, some of the meanings for guo4, absent in the glossing of your post, are: to celebrate, to live, to get along. My question is, would it be wise to fix the meaning of Xiao Guo, in a context vacuum, as a past event? Not saying it doesn't apply--hindsight is always 20/20, and context is king--but I believe a biased sense of it meaning occurred events could close the door to other possibilities that may be in our present and/or future and be as important.

Misfortune is all around us, any moment something can hit us. The bird which is pursued by hunters has bad luck, but if it is clever and stays low, it will survive.
No question misfortune lurks all around us, but also does fortune. I don't believe misfortune has the upper hand in life, although many might feel so (heck, even I wonder at times...). In the example of the bird, where being hunted down is a misfortune for it, it is an unquestionable fortune for the hunter. Things find a way to balance. On a micro scale, fortune and misfortune are perceptual constructs of our minds. Big natural disasters spell misfortune for many but on a macro scale is just change happening and the planet finding a new balance.


[FONT="]君子以行過乎恭[/FONT]
The noble one exceeds in respect in actions
Word by word: Junzi use move exceed at respect.
Meng's "meeting misfortune with respect" may not be the exact translation of this sentence, but I think it applies very well to the whole of 62.
My mistake. I actually thought Bruce was quoting somebody and kind of puzzled me that someone would translate that sentence so. However, although misfortune is not specifically cited in the Da Xiang of 62, I do agree with you that at least a big part of the spirit of the hexagram is to meet challenges with due respect.
 
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willowfox

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Listening and taking the advice given leads to good fortune.

Ignoring the advice given leads to bad fortune. So, you make your own bad luck.
 

heylise

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Yes, guo4 is used in lots of compounds indicating past events. However, it could also indicate present and even future events. For example, some of the meanings for guo4, absent in the glossing of your post, are: to celebrate, to live, to get along. My question is, would it be wise to fix the meaning of Xiao Guo, in a context vacuum, as a past event? Not saying it doesn't apply--hindsight is always 20/20, and context is king--but I believe a biased sense of it meaning occurred events could close the door to other possibilities that may be in our present and/or future and be as important.
Thanks!! Didn't know these translations for guo.

No question misfortune lurks all around us, but also does fortune. I don't believe misfortune has the upper hand in life, although many might feel so (heck, even I wonder at times...). In the example of the bird, where being hunted down is a misfortune for it, it is an unquestionable fortune for the hunter. Things find a way to balance. On a micro scale, fortune and misfortune are perceptual constructs of our minds. Big natural disasters spell misfortune for many but on a macro scale is just change happening and the planet finding a new balance.
Yes.. but either the bird (or me as bird) or the hunter casts the coins, so the answer is just for one of them. I know, good and bad luck are relative, but when you sit right in one of them, it doesn't feel that way.

My mistake. I actually thought Bruce was quoting somebody and kind of puzzled me that someone would translate that sentence so. However, although misfortune is not specifically cited in the Da Xiang of 62, I do agree with you that at least a big part of the spirit of the hexagram is to meet challenges with due respect.
Old character Guo (just one version of it I think):
28-guo-road.gif

At the bottom a foot, at left (half of) a road, together "walking".
At right something which looks a lot like the roads up a mountain which I know from my youth in Switzerland. Going over a pass. Especially back then a huge challenge.
 

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