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64.6

tealight

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I am trying to understand this line better.

Part of Bradford's text says:
There is a great difference between letting go and falling apart

Recently it came up for me in something to do with feeling/character/disposition.

Could it indicate something like fear, complacence, self-sabotage, carelessness ... ? Or maybe the opposite? 40.6 seems to indicate confidence, determination, focus etc.

Here is the Wilhelm translation:
There is drinking of wine
In genuine confidence. No blame.
But if one wets his head,
He loses it, in truth.

40.6:
The prince shoots at a hawk on a high wall.
He kills it. Everything serves to further.

Any thoughts appreciated.
 

meng

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Next to a station I worked at for a few years was a business that prominently hung a sign: Samson slew a thousand Philistines with the jaw bone of an ass. It was an image of a salesman being booted out the door of someone's business.

In salesmanship 101 there's an old and very wise saying: After you ask for the order, SHUT UP!!!!!! It's followed by the saying - he who speaks first loses.These may sound old, cold and callused, but they are simply a condition, created by going a step too far, where the salesperson is recklessly losing points they'd worked so hard to achieve. There are old war horse stories about putting a short nail through the sole of your shoe to remind you when to stop killing the deal with a jawbone of an ass.
 

charly

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... There are old war horse stories about putting a short nail through the sole of your shoe to remind you when to stop killing the deal with a jawbone of an ass.
Hi, Bruce:

I believe that W/B version of 40.6 encourages people to kill his enemies, to be merciless. Of course, the chinese received text of the Changes says nothing about KILLING THE HAWK, even doesn't speak od a PRINCE, both licences of W/B translation.

For comparison, here the Rick Kunst version:
Kunst says ... «The duke uses this oracle in shooting a hawk... », which presumably means «This line was obtained when the duke shot a hawk».

Rutt, page 334
Available in Google Books

Kunst version is not literal, it's a «reconstruction» and doesn't lack of fanciful details, but look:

DUKE instead of PRINCE. Duke is the standard translation for GONG which was the highest title for feudal local rules. From the point of view of local people, the GONG has the true POWER, USES HIS AUTHORITY HERE AND NOW WHILE THE kING RESIDES FAR AWAY AND HIS AUTHORITY ARRIVES LATE. The GONG is a true phallic symbol (gong is also applied to some male animals, like cocks, etc.)

USED ... SHOOTING, instead of SHOT. YONG means to use / to apply / to employ / with / etc. , implies some means for obtaining a desired result. The duke uses to shoot hawks as means for something else, not for the mere joy of f_cking the hawk.

ANOTHER DETAIL: the Changes doesn't say that the HAWK WAS KILLED, only says that he was CAPTURED. A dead hawk is useless, not edible, but a caught hawk can be trained in hunting and falconry is a noble sport appropriate for a GONG.

An almost literal translation:

公用射隼于高墉之上。
gong1 yong4 she4 sun3 yu2 gao1 yong1 zhi1 shang4.
(The) Duke uses to shoot Hawks at high wall's top.

獲之无不利。
huo4 zhi1 wu2 bu4 li4.
To capture them: no unprofitable(!)

This version intents to be literal and complete and, I believe, it DOESN'T ENCOURAGE POLITICAL MURDERS.

So I ask all the good I-Chingers :

STOP KILLING HAWKS :eek:


Your friend,


Charly

_____________
P.D.:
Phallic symbols in 40.6: Gong (Phallus), Hawk (Bird of Prey)
Euphemisms for TO F_CK: to shoot, to catch.
Don't f_ck the hawk!
Ch.
 
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meng

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Hi Charly,

Nothing much to add, but I was referring to 64.6. The deal isn't signed yet, but all one needs to do is ask and it's a done deal. In his or her exuberance and premature celebration, the representative blows the deal.

I suppose 40.6 entered through the Fan Yao (thank you, Brad) gate, because it wasn't in the reading. A raptor at a strategic peak sounds to me like banners, or like sticking the US flag in the moon. Whether noble or miserable, it seems a natural thing to do, like pointing to the sun or moon or space craft. Or perhaps it's a religious angle (or angel), the halo around the sacrificed Savior, the illumination emanating from the Buddha. The man who was thrown overboard and eaten by a big fish. It is archetypal stuff. Symbolically, the Prince aims very high, has high expectations, is ready to meet a challenge. I say challenge because it wasn't a dove, it was a hawk. The hawk may still eat the dove. Will you shoot the hawk? What if they began stealing your young hens?
 

charly

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Symbolically, the Prince aims very high, has high expectations, is ready to meet a challenge. I say challenge because it wasn't a dove, it was a hawk. The hawk may still eat the dove. Will you shoot the hawk? What if they began stealing your young hens?
Bruce:

I understand that you like you hens but I believe that a GONG-DUKE-PRINCE preferred some fine hunt instead of common hens, say, something like pheasants. Maybe WE could see ourselves in need of killing the hawk, but why should we recover died a bird that means no profit but alive?

And of course, GONGS are little compasionate, the life of a wild bird captive is not easy. Maybe the GONG didn´t kill the hawk but always enjoy killing another animals with his help.

Nobody´s perfect.

And what´s a GONG if not a COCK perched in the highest POLE in the HENHOUSE?

What make hard to shoot the hawk is not the ferocity of the bird but the skill needed for hitting a target placed high with respect to the archer.

Common people is not less carnivore than nobles. I wonder if they raise hens for the joy of feeding them. :confused:


All the best,


Charly
 

charly

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... Recently it came up for me in something to do with feeling/character/disposition... Could it indicate something like fear, complacence, self-sabotage, carelessness ... ? Or maybe the opposite? ...
Hi, TL:

I believe that 64.6 is about SELF CONFIDENCE and SELF CONTROL.

An almost literal translation of the chinese received text of 64.6:


有孚于飲酒,无咎
you3 fu2 yu2 yin3 jiu3: wu2 jiu4.
HAVING CONFIDENCE IN DRINKING WINE: NO WRONG.
[Alternative →] Being caught in drinking wine: blameless.

濡其首,有孚失是
ru2 qi2 shou3 you3 fu2 shi1 shi4.
[BUT] WETTING THE HEAD WILL HAVE [YOUR] CONFIDENCE LOST, YES!
[Alternative →] Wetting one´s head will be caught lost.

WINE is a common translation for a word that means liquor / spirits, I believe that ancient chinese had not grape wine.

Things are not what they seem, which reminds me that DRINKING WINE is an euphemism for HAVING SEX. To wet oneself, in the case of persons or foxes, means to have fear or to lose the control.

Under that light:

CONFIDENCE IN DRINKING WINE = [SELF] CONFIDENCE WHEN HAVING SEX → GOOD THING !
WETTING ONE´S HEAD = LOSING ONE´S CONTROL → BAD THING !

Presumable advice:

IF WE ARE NOT YET ACROSS, BETTER TO RELAX OUR MORAL THAN TO RELAX OUR CONTROL.

Or else: nothing bad with sexual love. only don´t lose your head.

Not many sexual allusions in H.64, some of them: FOXES [bridegrooms, pretendants, seducers], WET TAILS [sexual parts or the weak side of ourselves], GREAT FLOW / GREAT RIVER [feminity, goddess or, if male, luscious god avid of girls], but that´s another story.


All the best.

Charly
________________________
P.D.:
Rick Kunst translated 是 shi as SPOON instead or YES.
If the guy lost his spoon he became unable to perform the «sacrifice». Not too different.
Ch.
 
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peterg

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64.6 ~ 40
You have to cross a few rivers to get to 64.6. So, victory after a struggle.Get ready to break open the champagne.Don't make an orgy of it.
 

tealight

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Thanks for the replies. I understand it better now I think. I was especially interested seeing as it's the last line in the book. I like how it ends then. On a cliffhanger maybe? Or maybe just fades out with no intention of ending... I guess it would go back to the beginning and refine the process in some way.. :)
 

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