64. Wei Chi / Before Completion

[rosada]

64.4
Nine in the fourth place means:
Perseverance brings good fortune.
Remorse disappears.
Shock, thus to discipline the Devil's country.
For three years, great realms are rewarded.
-Wilhelm

 

[rosada]

Now is the time of struggle. The transition must be completed. We must make ourselves strong in resolution; this brings good fortune. All misgivings that might arise in such grave times of struggle must be silenced. It is a question of a fierce battle to break and to dicipline the Devil's Country, the forces of decadence. But the struggle also has its reward. Now is the time to lay the foundations of power and mastry for the future.
-Wilhelm

 

[meng]

Can anyone give a real life example for this line? It reads as if the advice is to abandon one's project and try something new entirely, but I find that hard to believe - especially because 64.3 changes to 50 and all that feeling of success.
Thoughts:
64.1 You wish to express yourself but no one is hearing what you have to say.
64.2 Wait your turn.
64.3 Give up and change the subject?
Rosada

Even halfway into the undertaking the focus is involved with doing, an exuberance or enthusiasm as the driving force. Because of that mindset, too easily design flaws can be optimistically overlooked. Lines 1, 2 and 3 are preparatory, so having attention too much on the final result is a distraction. Focus should be on design and function. The battle, or hard part, hasn't even yet begun.

 

[tuckchang]

64.4

Text: It is auspicious to persist and regret will be gone; Zhen (the thunder which arouses all life) undertakes action to attack Gui Fang; to bestow awards on the duke within the time period of three years. It is auspicious to persist in doing what one has been engaging in, and regret will be gone. King Gao Zong attacked Gui Feng; in process of three year battling he constantly bestowed awards on those dukes who made contribution; the dukes were inspired, exerted all their efforts and would win the war at last.

Line 4 has left the bottom Kan, the river and peril, and steps into the upper trigram Li: a bright and civilized phase, but it is still in the middle of the inner upper trigram Kan, the undercurrent and hidden peril; it must continue its mission of crossing the river and leave the peril completely. Although it is at the position for resting as it has just passed a river (or the bottom trigram), the masculine tends to move; if it can persist in moving forth and accomplishing its mission; regret will be gone.

Confucian commentary on its image: It is auspicious to persist and regret will be gone, (signifying that) the aspiration is realized. Line 4 reaches the upper trigram Li after having passed through (three positions of) the bottom trigram Kan, like those inspired dukes following King Gao Zong and wining the war after three years.

Time has moved toward one's favor and here is the turning point. After this line is activated and changes, the hexagram becomes Meng (4), wherein people who sincerely receives tuition will be enlightened. It is advantageous (or appropriate) to persist (in one’s belief)

Regards
Tuck :bows:

 

[rodaki]

. . pheeew . . I hope people weren't holding their breath for this -Mr Little can be very meticulous indeed sigh: ). Have you ever been winter swimming you'll know that preparations are not to be taken lightly. There's repeated trying of waters and warming up routines and meditation and then some . . .

-Come on . .
He turned around and looked at her a bit baffled . . what? His mind was occupied by what troubles might arise -what was this? Yards and bones and kitty in a yarnball -was it a good time for games, this, the way ahead looks ominous, said Mr Little.
-Seriously Kid, you didn't really think this is the first time I've never seen waves before now, did ya? . . my, do I have stories to tell . . (chuckles)

Kid rolled back his heels and turned to listen. This Girl had a way all her own with stories although it nagged him that she always left the moral of the story untold -she had good reason for it, but he would have to find out one step at a time- . . well, that was kind of perplexing and things were now all bowled over, it would be nice to see this thread unraveling, he thought, straight into the heart of it, just like Theseus into the labyrinth.

Girl looked around . . there was not much time left till pieces fell into place and her heart was clinched and bundled but happy still. Time was not yet but time was coming. Oh well, maybe just enough time for one more story. She untied her fingers and started spinning . .

I don't know if I have told you this but she had been to the sea before and knew its lairs and virtues. She had practically grown up in it and had grown up to love it: its endless deep expanses, the wild horizons, sharp edges of laughing water and sun rays reflecting right through its unfathomable blues. She had been taught to read images in the clouds and landscape, the tongue of waves and wind to steer the boat, the caves of pirates . . . Pirates, yes, this story was about pirates.

Her thoughts rolled back like waves on some forgotten shore . . back to the day her father had come home with treasuries from the local antiques'. Two books, timely unearthed from who knows whose chest, with heavy, sandy-colored pages. The first, a relic from his childhood, a pirate novel, the life and works of Golden Devil, a buccaneer roaming the Caribbean, the other was its follow-up and was called "Myrtle, the Golden Devil's Daughter" . . . she laughed inside with her father's mischievous
games cause she knew what he was telling her. He wanted her to grow up strong and fearless, be sharp in mutiny and think herself last in danger. He knew his own daughter well enough, had seen her perch herself in the boat's bow each time the sea got rough, up there to the place of most impact. That was the closest she could get to the waves' dance -high high up straight across the sun on the peak of them and deep down inside them when they crushed over her; coming back only when the sea had stopped soaking her to the bone despite the bright yellow sailing gear, after the wind and sun had blown her clothes dry again, all salty-skinned and tangled hair . .

Had she not told him before, she had once seen a fellow from a friendly boat all bruised up after a crossing, his neck marked with a spiraling thin red line, as if someone had tried to choke him; that was one thing's work, a rope not fastened well enough, a wrong attempt to fix it, the rope free to the wind had coiled around his neck, almost throwing him overboard . . his eyes were still drowning in the abyss.

. . a slight breeze drew him out of his wandering gaze:
-Come on . . the tide is rising and you don't want to get swamped and under the weather, it's time . . draw your lines straight -I'll tell you then how it all begun . .

you still here? this is how Mr Little's story begun in my mind . .
enter

 

[fkegan]

Hex 64.4 >>4

Each moving line of a hexagram involves draining away from that hexagram to change toward some other hexagram. Hex 64 is about working away to complete the Great Project. Each moving line speaks about taking some off ramp from that Freeway toward some other destination.

The fourth line is the place of the heart and soul. The lower trigram of Flowing Water or the Great River is now crossed, still the Total project is being sidetracked by the expression and exhaustion of the feelings of the heart taking the archetypal hex 64 Eve toward the naivete (and potential) of hexagram 4.

Frank

 

[answeredquestions]

Each moving line of a hexagram involves draining away from that hexagram to change toward some other hexagram. Hex 64 is about working away to complete the Great Project. Each moving line speaks about taking some off ramp from that Freeway toward some other destination.

Great way of explaining the changing lines

 

[my_key]

64.4 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pafY6sZt0FE

 

[rosada]

64.4
Nine in the fourth place:

a) Perseverance brings good fortune.
Remorse disappears.
Shock, thus to discipline the Devil's Country.
For three years, great relms are awarded.

b) "Perseverance brings good fortune. Remorse disappears." What is willed is done.

As this hexagram is the inverse of the preceding one, the disciplining of the Devil's Country, there mentioned in connection with the third place, appears here in connection with the fourth. Here the result is more favorable - there three years of fighting, here three years of rewards. The present line is a strong official who assists the gentle ruler in the fifth place and therefore carries out his will.
-Wilhelm

 

[rosada]

My experience of this line is in keeping with meng's comments. Although Wilhelm says "the results are more favorable" than what is discribed in 63.3, this job disciplining of the Devil's Country here seems overwhelming - major test I guess of everything presented in 1.1 - 64.3. I like the idea of rewards being given not just at the end but as encouragement throughout the three year struggle. Also like Wilhelm's comment, "What is willed is done," and the point that this line is about a strong official simply assisting the ruler - the official is just doing his job and needn't worry.
rosada

 

[fkegan]

My experience of this line is in keeping with meng's comments. Although Wilhelm says "the results are more favorable" than what is discribed in 63.3, this job disciplining of the Devil's Country here seems overwhelming - major test I guess of everything presented in 1.1 - 64.3. I like the idea of rewards being given not just at the end but as encouragement throughout the three year struggle. Also like Wilhelm's comment, "What is willed is done," and the point that this line is about a strong official simply assisting the ruler - the official is just doing his job and needn't worry.
rosada

Hi Rosada,

I suspect that worry is part of the able official's job, so that his King doesn't have to. A war of adventure and conquest is always and all ways a worry and it should be. The advice here is to keep at it, be sure to tip your service people and remember the lofty goals rather than getting caught up in the daily casualty figures and media chatter. War makes fools of all involved and that is the resultant of this hex 64.4 which is a cautionary tale for any and all who receive this as an actual personal oracle.

Frank

 

[charly]

My experience of this line is in keeping with meng's comments. Although Wilhelm says "the results are more favorable" than what is discribed in 63.3, this job disciplining of the Devil's Country here seems overwhelming - major test I guess of everything presented in 1.1 - 64.3. I like the idea of rewards being given not just at the end but as encouragement throughout the three year struggle. Also like Wilhelm's comment, "What is willed is done," and the point that this line is about a strong official simply assisting the ruler - the official is just doing his job and needn't worry.
rosada

Hi, Rosada:

Indeed, in 64.3 the worst had not yet arrived and the present is difficult enough.

64.3 advices NOT SWAPPING HORSES IN THE MIDDLE OF A RIVER, do not add a difficulty to another.

64.4 survey
[W/B UPPERCASE]:

貞 zhen1: chaste / perseverance // divination / PERSEVERANCE
吉 ji2: fortunate / lucky / [BRINGS] GOOD FORTUNE
悔 hui3: remorse / regret / REMORSE
亡 wang2: to vanish / to disappear // to die / to perish / DISAPPEARS

震 zhen4: quake // shake / shock // sign in Ba-Gua / SHOCK (1)
用 yong4: to use / to apply / [THUS]
伐 fa1: chop / kill // attack // boast / brag / TO DISCIPLINE
鬼 gui3: devil / ghost / demon // stranger / [THE] DEVIL ['S] (2)
方 fang1: square // direction / place / land // just / COUNTRY

三 san1: three / 3 / [FOR] THREE
年 nian2: year / YEARS
有 you3: to have / there is / there are / ARE
賞 shang3: appreciate /enjoy beauty // grant / bestow / reward / REWARDED
于 yu2: at / to / [ ... ? ]
大 da4: big / great / GREAT (3)
國 guo2: country / state / nation / REALMS


​

ROUGH TRANSLATION:

OMEN: LUCKY.
It will be OK.
All be for good.

REMORSE VANISHES
Although bad the action, it will be no worry.
All passes, even the worse.

THUNDER APPLY TO CHOP [THE] STRANGERS
Apply a flash attack to behade the enemies
say, quick and hard, blietzkrieg, to kill the heads, the chieftains


THREE YEARS THERE WILL BE, ENJOYING AT [THE] GREAT COUNTRY
After the punitive expedition, rewarded with three years at home.
Better to be enjoying at home than to be warring far.

​

The advice, maybe:

• Don't engage in long war against an enemy that moves quickly.
• Don't perform a conventional war against guerrilla.
• Although strange, let the people live, only kill the heads.
• Live and let live.

Of course, not the philosophy of rulers that carry "'defensive" walls out of the limits with the strangers, to the middle of their territories.

Diviners must have preferred to remain at home. They appreciate (賞 shang3) their skins. Some subversive because WAR never ends.

Don't you agree?


Yours,

Charly

______________________________
(1) Note that 震 zhen is the name the trigram THUNDER, the name of Hex.51, arousisng, shock for W/B but maybe better translated as QUAKE / EARTHQUAKE

(2) 鬼方 gui fang, Ghostland, Land of Ghosts, is for some authors a name for NOMAD PEOPLE whose country or ethnicity has not been established with accuracy, maybe a collective for any or all the non-chinese people that surrounded the Middle Kingdom.

(3) Correlatively 大國 da guo, great coutry could mean the main chinese country, the SHANG's COUNTRY. But also could stand for capital or for the own country, the more pleasant for whom were born there, say, HOME.

 

[rosada]

64.5

0 Six in the fifth place means:
Perseverance brings good fortune.
No remorse.
The light of the superior man is true.
Good fortune.

The victory has been won.
The power of steadfastness has not been routed.
Everything has gone well.
All misgivings have been overcome.
Success has justified the deed.
The light of the superior personality shines forth anew and makes its influence felt among men who have faith in it and rally around it.
The new time has arrived, and with it good fortune.
And just as the sun shines forth in redoubled beauty after rain, or as a forest grows more freshly green from charred ruins after a fire, so the new era appears all the more glorious by contrast with the misery of the old.
-Wilhelm

 

[my_key]

Hey Rosada
You are going a bit quick for us old 'uns - Already jumping into 65.5 that's a hugely quick leap----too quick for me.

64.4 - The land where we have just stepped out of the inner conflicts - the skeletons we have released step into our new world with us. We see them for what they are and have to do great battle to subdue them still. This is now about how we evaluate and see things that we have gone through; what we have experienced to bring us to this point and the choices we now make - play the old tapes or dance to the bright new tune. We have to see what we have been in order to allow us to choose what we want to become....a painful process indeed.The best advice is to shake off those old skeletons, some will cling on for grim death but keep on dancing and the new rhythm will loosen their hold. When the going gets tough the tough get going.

MIke

 

[rosada]

Interesting, Mike.
64.5 leads to 6. Conflict, so your comment that you feel we're out of sync here seems appropriate. Perhaps this is a sign that when one has arrived at 64.5 there will be Conflict, but that now we are equipt to handle it!
In this instance I actually posted 64.4 last week, March 3. Perhaps confusion was created with the recent multiple references to 64.3 while we were supposedly discussing 64.4. Maybe this is why it feels like we're jumping ahead now as we move on to 64.5.
Whatever, there is no reason why we should not continue to discuss the previous line and I personally so appreciate your insights about the problems we confront at 64.4 being old devils stirred up and the message about the importance of not taking this negativity into the 64.5 new time.

Venus is going into Aries today- how's that for a symbol of Positive Fresh Beginnings?!

 

[dobro p]

Here's what I want to know: have any of you considered or started to organize the 'Hexagram Discussion Group Cold Turkey Support and Weaning Group' yet?

 

[Sparhawk]

What? Didn't you know that we'll start again with 1 using the Spanish translation of the Yijing?

 

[dobro p]

How about starting again and doing it in Chinese this time? That'll slow everything down to a walk...

 

[fkegan]

Not with Yellowbridge online now, the Chinese text and its dictionary meanings and origins and stroke order is just a clique away.

Rehab for hexagram discussion? This thread is about memorizing the Wilhelm text. Be glad there isn't an Imperial Civil Service Exam in Chinese to pass.

Frank

 

[Sparhawk]

How about starting again and doing it in Chinese this time? That'll slow everything down to a walk...

Hey, Charly already took care of that initiative. Although, it could be interesting if more add to that potluck.

 

[tuckchang]

64.5

Text: It is auspicious to persist, (and) no regret. The light (or brilliance) of the gentleman, (possessing or encouraging) sincerity & trust (有孚 you3 fu2); auspicious.
Line 5 reaches the end of the inner upper trigram Kan, peril, and the core of the upper trigram Li, brightness. It is going to leave the river but still within it. Therefore it must still persist in carrying on its mission of crossing the river, and to persist is auspicious.
The text of no regret usually appears after the line has successfully moved forth from the preceding position where (to persist is auspicious and) the regret will be gone.
Line 5 was the one of tenderness that has progressed smoothly and attained the middle position (of the upper trigram) but hasn’t departed from the river, and wetted its tail as described in the Judgment; consequently Wei Ji is formed. Now it has undergone all difficult parts of its journey, step by step, and is approaching the riverside at the other end and wins the prize. Hence no regret, but this is subject to its persisting in accomplishing its mission. .

The upper trigram Li possesses a condensed image of Hex 61: sincerity & trust in the middle (i.e. heart) and is regarded as the sincerity & trust (有孚 you3 fu2) of a humble heart. The bottom trigram Kan is constituted by one solid line in the middle of two feminine lines, and is taken for the sincerity & trust (有孚 you3 fu2) of a solid heart.
Line 5 is the host line that dominates the whole hexagram; it represents the upper trigram Li and correlates with line 3, the representative line of the bottom trigram Kan, like a gentleman keeping his commitment (of crossing the river) without any pride after having attained bright achievement, his brilliance like a lighthouse lights up the way for those below in peril and inspiring their faith; they show mutual concerns in one boat and the boat tides them together over peril.
‘The light of the gentleman; his brilliance is auspicious.’: says Confucian commentary on its image.

Sincerity & trust (i.e. keeping one’s commitment and responded by the corresponding faith) are those which bring about the success in crossing the river. If line 5 changes, the hexagram will become Hex 6: Song (litigation) wherein sincerity & trust are obstructed;........ it is not instrumental in crossing the great river.

Regards
Tuck :bows:

 

[charly]

... The best advice is to shake off those old skeletons, some will cling on for grim death but keep on dancing and the new rhythm will loosen their hold. When the going gets tough the tough get going.
MIke

Hi, Mike:

I like it. To shake the bones is always a good advice.

From: Corto Maltes by Hugo Pratt
At: http://comic-historietas.blogspot.com/2009/04/hugo-pratt-el-esoterismo-en-corto.html

All the best.

Charly

P.D.:
Don't ask me why one of the skeletons have a supernumerary bone. Maybe a hidden advice or maybe only a licence of the drawer.

Ch.

 

[rosada]

"Perseverance brings good fortune" and "The light of the superior man is true":
The Academy Awards were televised last night. A lot of winners mentioned the obstacles and the perseverance it took to reach this final victory. In her acceptance speech the woman who got the Oscar for best supporting actress thanked her husband for encouraging her to do "the right thing."
rosada

 

[rosada]

64.5

0 Six in the fifth place:

a) Perseverance brings good fortune.
No remorse.

b) "The light of the superior man is true." His light brings good fortune.

This line is in the middle of the trigram Li, light. Hence everything is favorable for accomplishing the transition to the new period.
-Wilhelm

 

[fkegan]

Hi, Mike:

I like it. To shake the bones is always a good advice.

From: Corto Maltes by Hugo Pratt
At: http://comic-historietas.blogspot.com/2009/04/hugo-pratt-el-esoterismo-en-corto.html
All the best.
Charly
P.D.:
Don't ask me why one of the skeletons have a supernumerary bone. Maybe a hidden advice or maybe only a licence of the drawer.
Ch.

Hi Charly,

Doesn't the article say in Spanish that Pratt worked hard after diagnosis of colon cancer to finish his work. He put a penis upon one skeleton to affirm his commitment to life as he was dying.

Here in hex 64.5>>hex 6 The Ruler has won the Great War of line 4. This brings peace (or in Chinese what comes after War). The Yi is dynamic so what happens if you complete your project with great success: Life goes on and what before had been the great army is now demobilized and becomes a crowd of veterans who now go home to mill about their village squares arguing and starting yelling fights as their way of showing they don't have to maintain wartime unity and discipline anymore.

Frank

 

[rosada]

Thanks Frank.
I sure like getting these explations of how the second hexagram evolves from the previous hexagram's change lines. Perhaps our next study should be focused on that. I also would like to have a more complete understanding of the trigrams so there's another possible discussion group.
Time will tell. Right now I'm about to post - drum roll - 64.6!
rosada

 

[rosada]

64.6

Nine at the top means:
There is drinking of wine
In genuine confidence. No blame.
But if one wets his head,
He loses it, in truth.
-Wilhelm

 

[Trojina]

are we having some kind of party at 64.6 ?

not really in the mood but shouldn't someone light some fireworks or sing or something ?

this is the end of an era afterall

I guess we should give Rosada a round of applause for taking us through..its taken her years...started in 2006 I think

Rosada has been posting these lines for 4 years !

Don't we have to go out with a Bang !

 

[meng]

To Rosadadaba!

 

[Sparhawk]

Well done, Rosada!! I've always loved the idea. I hope we all continue to add to those threads.