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7 unchanging. Army = fight or discipline?

Peter Belt

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Hi everyone, this thread comes here after I read the insights on 7uc.

I am a bit puzzled however, that this Hexagram is very seldom read in a more belligerent way (I guess indeed that the Yi Jing is never meant to be belligerent).

Has nobody ever gotten 7uc in a situation that needed to "stand up and fight"? The reason I ask this is: a year ago I was fed up of trying to talk my ex-wife into having shared custody of our son (I had him 5 days every two weeks at that point). My question was "should I be firmer in this discussion and take it to the courts"? (in the country I live, by law, any parent that asks for shared custody will have it granted.

Anyhow, the person that made this reading at the time, saw this 7uc as "be open, endure this, be disciplined in order to see what prevents you to understand and speak openly to your ex-wife". Still to this day I feel that this 7uc could have been read as "mobilize your armies and fight (in court) for this"...What is your take on this?
 

Trojina

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Hi everyone, this thread comes here after I read the insights on 7uc.

I am a bit puzzled however, that this Hexagram is very seldom read in a more belligerent way (I guess indeed that the Yi Jing is never meant to be belligerent).

Has nobody ever gotten 7uc in a situation that needed to "stand up and fight"? The reason I ask this is: a year ago I was fed up of trying to talk my ex-wife into having shared custody of our son (I had him 5 days every two weeks at that point). My question was "should I be firmer in this discussion and take it to the courts"? (in the country I live, by law, any parent that asks for shared custody will have it granted.

Anyhow, the person that made this reading at the time, saw this 7uc as "be open, endure this, be disciplined in order to see what prevents you to understand and speak openly to your ex-wife". Still to this day I feel that this 7uc could have been read as "mobilize your armies and fight (in court) for this"...What is your take on this?


I think you have to go back to the actual text of the I Ching for 7 which doesn't actually say 'stand up and fight' if you read it although in certain situation it might amount to that. I see it more as having an objective, a focus, a drive, a singularity of purpose...and all the things we spoke of the 7uc thread where you have also posted this query. But regardless of what words I use or commentators use you have to go to the text of Yi, an actual translation of Yi's words. Looking at the Oracle/Judgement, Image in Wilhelm and Hilary's translation it's not so much to do with fighting as such but it can be to do with marshalling,channeling one's resources in order to achieve something.

In your case it could well be that 7uc indicated you needed to marshall your energies to reach your objective yes, which might be a roundabout way, on occasion, to 'stand up and fight' I suppose.

This that you quote

Anyhow, the person that made this reading at the time, saw this 7uc as "be open, endure this, be disciplined in order to see what prevents you to understand and speak openly to your ex-wife".

...seems quite a general statement that isn't too far at odds with the broad meaning of 7uc as far as I can see.
 

Peter Belt

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Thank you Trojina for taking the time to answer this.
When you say:
I think you have to go back to the actual text of the I Ching for 7 which doesn't actually say 'stand up and fight' if you read it although in certain situation it might amount to that.

I understand that the actual text doesn't encourage to fight for something, word for word, but my take is that this is the hexagram that is the closest to that, to an actual battle (since the Yi Jing is about interpreting the text rather than to read what it says word for word).
I don't know what is Whilhelm's translation in english, but in the french translation I'm using (Javary's), Hexagram 7 is "the Army", which text could sound very much as the hexagram the Yi would use in case there was a situation where an actual fight is needed.

Since I didn't read a single experience about 7uc (in the exploring divination section) that was developing in that direction I was just curious if the Hexagram 7 was actually never meant to describe a belligerent attitude (because the Yi Jing would never make use of or encourage such an attitude), or because simply nobody had yet come up with an experience that was in that context and where that hexagram could have indeed be seen as a "stand up and fight" advice.

Thanks again :)
 

Trojina

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I understand that the actual text doesn't encourage to fight for something, word for word, but my take is that this is the hexagram that is the closest to that, to an actual battle (since the Yi Jing is about interpreting the text rather than to read what it says word for word).

Well it is possible to get too far away from what the text actually says especially after one has been consulting for many years I find because one can sort of develop one's own shorthand. It's good of course to make one's own connections but also I find now and then when I actually read what Yi itself says (rather than my personal shorthand) I'm surprised even now. Also many scholars are devoted to the Yi Jing for what it says 'word for word', still uncovering layers of meaning even now and of course the meanings for each character/word can be multifarious.

There are plenty of lines in the I Ching referring to battle, lines in 63 and 64 for example as well as many others no doubt and yes there is talk of battle strategy in the lines of 7...Hilary wrote a recent Blog post about those I think, but whether hexagram 7 is the closest to an actual battle as in a fight I guess it is down to one's own viewpoint.


The issue you spoke of and your friend's interpretation sounded far more like 21 than 7 to me, Biting Through to the truth of a matter, and the actual tussle of fighting either inwardly or outwardly is more 6ish.

However 7uc was your answer and that is how you interpreted it. I don't think it was incorrect of you to interpret your answer in the way that you did which is why it is a good idea to leave your post in the Exploring Divination thread. 7uc is still at times very hard to interpret and apply and we are all still learning so your experience is of value there.



I don't know what is Whilhelm's translation in english, but in the french translation I'm using (Javary's), Hexagram 7 is "the Army", which text could sound very much as the hexagram the Yi would use in case there was a situation where an actual fight is needed.

Well who can say what hexagram Yi would use, what one has to do is look to one's experience. I don't find 7uc appears particularly where there is a battle. I do find 34uc to be at times a hexagram of self assertion which can constitute 'stand up and fight' as opposed to 33 'run and save your skin'. I also find 21, where one must penetrate to a truth often does involve a degree of battlement, an uncompromising attitude to cut through the crap so to speak.
Since I didn't read a single experience about 7uc (in the exploring divination section) that was developing in that direction I was just curious if the Hexagram 7 was actually never meant to describe a belligerent attitude (because the Yi Jing would never make use of or encourage such an attitude), or because simply nobody had yet come up with an experience that was in that context and where that hexagram could have indeed be seen as a "stand up and fight" advice.

Well was your attitude belligerent or were you merely asserting your rights. It's an odd choice of word really. One can cast any hexagram in a situation of conflict....often 58 shows up for example and then one finds the arguing seems to open things up not close them. There is no 'never', that is one cannot say 7 can never mean stand up for yourself.

What often happens is Yi re-defines a behaviour to you which can be helpful. Now I have had 58uc about times where I thought there was a deadlock, a conflict but Yi was showing me the back and forth of an apparent 'argument' was actually a true exchange which is what it turned out to be.

It never works to think in terms of 'what Yi would give you' because it will always surprise you. It's good at that.

I tend to think you interpreted Yi's advice here correctly because that is what came to you and what worked for you in that situation. That doesn't mean every time you cast 7 you would assume you had to 'stand up and fight'.
 
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Peter Belt

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Well thank you so much Trojina for such a rich answer, there is a lot to digest there. I am going to print it and read it several times :D. It definitely is very helpful personally (in this situation) and in my understanding of the Yi Jing. Thanks a lot. All the best.
 

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