8.3 - non-people as animals

[knotxx]

Just asked about a sweet old cat of mine who is being a bit difficult, and got 8.3.4-31. What struck me was "seeking unon with non-people"--yes, that is exactly what I'm doing. I really like this view of "non-people" as just people who (like cats) are extremely alien to you, where there is very little common ground to meet on. 8.4 seems like the more positive side of this -- seeking union outside, refreshing your own perspective with a much different one.

"Non-people" has always bothered me, and I find this idea of non-people as -- not necessarily animals, of course! but as people who are, at least in the area of the question, radically different than you are, so that their perspective is hard to understand.

 

[Sparhawk]

"seeking unon with non-people"

Please remind me what translation are you using...

Actually, the character 匪 (fei) in 8.3 stands for "bandits" and associated words. Hence the idea of associating oneself with the "wrong people." Only the inside of the character, 非, means "not, negative, non-; oppose" and is a metaphor for "non-working wings." The dissection of the character used by your translator to derive a negative is unwarranted.

IMHO, that is...

 

[meng]

I interpret non-people and wrong people as meaning people who do not share your interests, vision or purpose. So perhaps more like other-people, not ones that benefit you to hold with.

In this light Yi may simply be saying your kitty is better than the way she's been behaving. Or, I wonder if she has been hanging around with some others (cats, dogs, people) who are teaching her these bad habits? Let me say also, that pet owners are more often than not the ones who teach their pets wrong habits, albeit out of love. Hex 31 may even be pointing to this.

 

[javalava]

Actually, the character 匪 (fei) in 8.3 stands for "bandits" and associated words.

How do you get the Chinese characters? More to the point, how come I can see them in onlineClarity posts and not anywhere else? Is it a special font?

 

[Sparhawk]

How do you get the Chinese characters? More to the point, how come I can see them in onlineClarity posts and not anywhere else? Is it a special font?

When you are browsing, it depends on the browser. You are safe using Firefox, for example and making sure the setting for "text encoding" (search browser's help) Unicode (UTF-8) or an Asian encoding. You can go back and forth.

If you mean to "type" the characters, then the procedure depends on the platform you are using. In Mac is very easy to set. In Windows it takes a few steps to switch back and forth between a Pinyin input keyboard and a Western one.

 

[bradford]

I interpret non-people and wrong people as meaning people who do not share your interests, vision or purpose.

It's more serious than that. Fei Ren are people who are pretty much beyond redemption. Miscreants like Hitler, Dahmer, Manson, my second wife, for some extreme examples. Recidivist criminals. Bad or evil people. The world would be a better place if they died. You may hold a belief that these people don't really exist, that it's all a question of nurture, but the Early Zhou Chinese did not share this view with you.

 

[Sparhawk]

It's more serious than that. Fei Ren are people who are pretty much beyond redemption. Miscreants like Hitler, Dahmer, Manson, my second wife, for some extreme examples. Recidivist criminals. Bad or evil people. The world would be a better place if they died. You may hold a belief that these people don't really exist, that it's all a question of nurture, but the Early Zhou Chinese did not share this view with you.

 

[meng]

It's more serious than that. Fei Ren are people who are pretty much beyond redemption. Miscreants like Hitler, Dahmer, Manson, my second wife, for some extreme examples. Recidivist criminals. Bad or evil people. The world would be a better place if they died. You may hold a belief that these people don't really exist, that it's all a question of nurture, but the Early Zhou Chinese did not share this view with you.

Do you know anyone like this? Do you know anyone who hangs with anyone like this? Does this mean that anyone who receives this line hangs with a Hitler, Dahmer, Manson? I believe you are being too literal here.

 

[Sparhawk]

Do you know anyone like this? Do you know anyone who hangs with anyone like this? Does this mean that anyone who receives this line hangs with a Hitler, Dahmer, Manson? I believe you are being too literal here.

Don't know about the other gentlemen in the list, but definitely if they hang with Bradford's second wife, methinks... She may still be roaming free about the world...

 

[knotxx]

wow, shot down!

btw the translation I'm quoting is Hilary's working translation

bradford--you can't really mean to suggest that whenever 8.3 comes up in reference to another person it means they are evil on the scale of Hitler, can you? How do you read that line in real life?

 

[bradford]

bradford--you can't really mean to suggest that whenever 8.3 comes up in reference to another person it means they are evil on the scale of Hitler, can you? How do you read that line in real life?

I was very careful to use the phrase "for some extreme examples." How could you possibly miss that?

Ever been mugged or conned? Ever been held down at knife point while your girlfriend was gang raped? I've been there in real life.

There are plenty of Fei Ren of varying degrees in real life. They don't give a damn about other people. They aren't all outlaws. A lot of them work for the government. Again, best test is that the would would be a better place without them.

 

[bamboo]

Ever been mugged or conned? Ever been held down at knife point while your girlfriend was gang raped? I've been there in real life.

There are plenty of Fei Ren of varying degrees in real life. They don't give a damn about other people. They aren't all outlaws. A lot of them work for the government. Again, best test is that the would would be a better place without them.

Some are on The View. Have you ever watched Judge Judy, meng?

or taken a stroll down any random street in manhatten. it's a regular mad-dog promenade- walk tall, or dont walk at all

 

[hilary]

Please remind me what translation are you using...

Actually, the character 匪 (fei) in 8.3 stands for "bandits" and associated words. Hence the idea of associating oneself with the "wrong people." Only the inside of the character, 非, means "not, negative, non-; oppose" and is a metaphor for "non-working wings." The dissection of the character used by your translator to derive a negative is unwarranted.

IMHO, that is...

Hm, trying to think where I found that idea, as I'm fairly sure I borrowed it from somewhere.

Pause. Thought-fail. Ah well.

What I had in mind for that and 12.0 was the German Unmensch - translated as 'brute' or 'inhuman', but with that feeling of 'it may look like a real person, but it isn't one'. Not the same as a bad person, who is still a person. This may be lousy translation, but it fits with my experience of the line.

I imagine this is like most lines, and covers a spectrum of experience of a single pattern. A cat - not human, and not averse to reminding you of this if you presume too far. Someone you fail to connect with in fundamental ways, maybe because you've got them already labelled in your mind (that's the only way I experienced 12 for years). Someone who is a consistently negative influence in your life and is never going to be otherwise. And then through to someone who is 'beyond redemption', a sociopath.

 

[bradford]

There is an interesting fundamental issue here. Are the Yi's statements literal predictions? Or are they substitutes for having encountered omens? Or are they priming you for holding a specific attitude with which to greet the near future?
Is it being predicted that you are going to encounter a well that you are able to shoot fish in? Or is it recommending that you will soon be well-advised to carry with you the attitude or cognitive skills that you would develop by having done so?
Then, as to Fei Ren, prepare to encounter people without the slimmest of interests in your well being.

 

[bradford]

Just a side note, for the folks who don't have the Chinese-
The Yi uses a couple of terms like this, much more commonly it's Xiao Ren, little, small or common people. There are cases where this is a little bit derogatory, but more often it is not - just matter-of-fact observations that common people are not often exceptional in their behavior. This sometimes refers to less than admirable or outstanding ethics.

 

[bamboo]

How did you get wise to me? we'll see who has the last laugh.

 

[Trojina]

Some are on The View. Have you ever watched Judge Judy, meng?

or taken a stroll down any random street in manhatten. it's a regular mad-dog promenade- walk tall, or dont walk at all

I know its not adressed to me Bamboo but I don't understand what your're saying/meaning, or who you are saying it to...you're talking to Meng but quoting Brad...I'm not getting the joke

 

[Sparhawk]

Oh, perhaps I'm wrong, but methinks that Bamboo meant an inside joke about a couple of TV programs on this side of the pond plus the idiosyncrasies of regular New Yorkers... It's a cement jungle, indeed...

 

[Trojina]

couldn't really link that to gang rape ...or maybe that wasn't the part of the quote Bamboo was really referring to...never mind..

 

[Sparhawk]

What I had in mind for that and 12.0 was the German Unmensch - translated as 'brute' or 'inhuman', but with that feeling of 'it may look like a real person, but it isn't one'. Not the same as a bad person, who is still a person. This may be lousy translation, but it fits with my experience of the line.

Ah, I see what your thought process was on that. However, it is one of the lines of the Yi where some Zen should be applied: "Less is more." The character 'fei' is very unambiguous, IMO. (Unless you start thinking about fallen angels...)

 

[Sparhawk]

couldn't really link that to gang rape ?

Me neither. That was really shocking and a sad memory to have. I only got the part of the TV programs and them having some examples of Fei Ren in them, as well as some New Yorkers.

 

[bamboo]

There are plenty of Fei Ren of varying degrees in real life.

geez! this is the line I was referring to. HOw can there be anyone who denies the existence of people who are less than well- meaning!

 

[bamboo]

i wasnt linking it to gang rape, sorry i shoulve deleted that part of the post. and I think it was less shocking to me because I have heard tell of that story before from Brad. And it wasnt really a joke I was making, because if you watcyh the Judge Judy show, you see an appalling segment of common man. and well, the View was a joke, but there is someone on that show who i think is a real dangerous sort of person

 

[Sparhawk]

the View was a joke, but there is someone on that show who i think is a real dangerous sort of person

I know is not Whoopi... Must be the one that campaigned right next to Palin...

 

[bamboo]

and the last part of the post was a quote from Bruce Springsteens song New YOrk CIty Serenade.

new york city is a freak show, and I happen to enjoy it. but let no one ever doubt that this world holds ALLL kinds of characters and some you are lucky to not be on the same wave length with. and if you find yourself there, well the Yi has a way of warning ya...

 

[bamboo]

I love whoopi. need i say more? I have actually written to the View to say I will not watch the show because of some blonde loudtalking girl, but i think they know what brings in the ratings.

 

[meng]

Then, as to Fei Ren, prepare to encounter people without the slimmest of interests in your well being.

Now, this, I have no disagreement with.

In fact, working through an 8.3 reading with someone recently, these were almost my exact words: people without the slightest interest in your welfare. That could refer to something inside or outside ones self, and it could be something as small as a wrong approach to a health issue, or a wrong attitude about something. Wrong people, wrong attitude, wrong habit, wrong diet, wrong whatever. It also can refer to extremes, just as anything could.

 

[bradford]

I have heard tell of that story before from Brad.

We believe that it had a decent ending. It was in East St. Louis.
The men were apprehended by the police. But it never went
to trial. Her father was very rich. As far as we could tell they
were "killed while trying to escape custody".

 

[Trojina]

geez! this is the line I was referring to. HOw can there be anyone who denies the existence of people who are less than well- meaning!

Noone here has denied the existence of people who are less than well meaning but IMO most of us are less than well meaning sometimes. You know sometimes we've probably all been Fei Ren unless you believe some people are intrinsically worse than others..which I don't.

I don't believe the 'common man' to be any less exceptional than the uncommon whoever that is. People show all kinds of bravery and nobility whatever their station in life. Of course I probably have got a lopsided view of what is meant by the 'common' man being English and so sensitized to class system which has nothing to do with ancient China.

Still I don't think rich people, people who are born in high places or even people with much education are actually better than anyone else.


I'm quite sure I've been 'Fei Ren' to a number of people in my life . I personally think we can all sink as low as the worse man of us . Isn't that something we all need to understand ?

As for 12.3 I guess as Hilary said it can go from someone who has no interest in your welfare to a complete psychopath. But can any of us claim that we've never not cared for someone elses welfare ?

Are there any people who are 'non people' ? If they aren't people what are they ?

 

[Trojina]

Well cats of course are not people. IMO the cat should be sent to some kind of reform school for wayward cats, except while there he may learn bad habits from the degenerate cats who are already inmates....