9 and 5?

[sugarlobster]

hi,

i've asked the yi about a project of mine and am a bit confused by the answer.

i'm starting work on a book (essay). i already have a publisher and the topic and approaches are slightly left-field, if central to current debates in my academic discipline.

i asked the yi what it thinks about my intention to write this book, taking into account the topic and approaches (ie its content too, not just the fact of me writing a book!)

got 11, so unless i'm mistaken the yi rather likes the idea

then i asked how it's likely to be received, and got 9.6 > 5
which i'm finding hard to make sense of.

i've read a thread on hex 9 on this site, which mentions it's in some way related to 5 in terms of both being about different aspects of waiting, but still can't bring it all together. is it about me waiting, as in 'well you'll just have to wait and see won't you?' - or about some tension between waiting and receiving, or what? and how does line 6 fit in?
would appreciate your thoughts on the matter.

love,
sugar lobster xx

 

[chrislofting]

S-L,

9 reflects the accumulation of small things into something you can stand upon to be noticed. the bottom trigram of heaven reflects perseverence, the top reflects becoming influencial.

5 reflects the need to 'bide one's time' , to wait for THE opportunity to turn up, to serve one's dues etc etc both reflect 'waiting', one parties and so networks (5) the other focuses attention on small gains and so waits by working (9) ;-)

5 integrates (top line yin), 9 differentiates (top line yang)

the water trigram of 5 reflects a focus on CONTROL so we have:

with perseverence one becomes influencial (09)
with perseverence one becomes in control (05)

WITHIN the octet of heaven hexagrams:

11, 26, 05, 09, 34, 14, 43, 01

05 is the more 'balanced' form of 14

for more on 05 see http://pages.prodigy.net/lofting/lofting/x010111.html

09 is the more 'balanced' form of 34

for more on 09 see http://pages.prodigy.net/lofting/lofting/x110111.html

chris.

 

[cal val]

Sugarlobster...

The Yi said "Good idea!" when you asked about writing the essay.

When you asked how people will receive it, the Yi answered, "How would I know? You haven't even written it yet...one step at a time."

OK...so they're not really saying "How would I know?" since they most probably do. They're not telling you...because that should not be a consideration when writing it. The Yi may not even be encouraging existential values (write it for its own sake...not for the rewards) when it gives you line 6, but I suspect it might be...*grin*

Line 6 is telling you...in short..."Don't ask."

Love,

Val

 

[sugarlobster]

hi chris,

thanks for that, it makes a lot of sense. looks like the yi knows very well what it takes to write a book! perseverance, yes, and accumulating small things - how many words a day? ;-)

5, you mention networking which i'd never seen associated to this hexagram - that's interesting, as it can be read, in this context, as the networking of ideas, linking them together until they all make sense, and therefore biding one's time while persevering until it is 'right'.

thanks!

sugarlobster xx

 

[sugarlobster]

val,

yes i definitely think there's a wink in there from the yi...

i won't deny that i hope my book will make a difference - becoming 'influential' as chris puts it, perhaps, or in any case being noticed. however, it is not out of a concern for possible rewards - i know from personal experience that when one does something out of sheer passion and 'devotion', the rewards come of themselves multiplied a thousandfold.

i feel very strongly about this book and i'm writing it because i have something to say. to me, that something is important - enough that i am willing to put in the hard work it takes to write a book - on top of having a full-time job and for no real financial rewards. so i am really doing it as part of a process of communication - communicating my ideas, putting them 'out there' for others to enter into a dialogue with me, hopefully. so when i ask 'how it will be received', i'm asking about the nature of that dialogue: will it be friendly, aggressive, passionate, creative, constructive, excited, boring, will there be a dialogue at all or will it sink in without a trace?
so in a way i'm also looking for an answer about that, but i'm not sure how to interpret the results in that light. i suspect the line might have something to say there... any ideas?

love,
sugarlobster xx

 

[dharma]

Sugarlobster,
I think I understand your question but then again maybe I don't.

Hopefully I've grasped what you're asking about and that my response will help you in some way.

I think you need to be content with conclusions that have been drawn so far and realize that trying to deduce more at this stage of the process would detract from the work you have ahead of you.

To attempt to know more would cast a certain light onto the whole project that would not otherwise have been there, and so influence what and how you go about writing the book.

In order for the book to flow out naturally from you you mustn't allow your concerns of its future reception to occupy your thoughts. Afterall, who exactly are these others that may enter into dialogue with you? Since the book is still pending then your audience remains vague and indistinct so that any questions you ask Yi along these lines will meet with more of the same responses - at least at this time.

Hope this helps.

 

[martin]

Hello Sugarlobster,

What I get from line 6 of hexagram 9 is that once you have published the book a debate with those who don't understand you or disagree with you will probably do not much good.
You used the term "slightly left-field". Does that mean that the views that you want to express in your book are more or less controversial?

Hexagram 9 can symbolize future possibilities that are not yet realized, or a plan that is not yet executed, in this case the plan to write a book. That fits.
Maybe, I don't know, the hexagram says also something about the content of your book. I associate 9 with brainstorming, the emphasis is on exploring new ideas, not (yet) on verification of these ideas. Does that describe what you intend to write?

Anyway, good luck!

 

[cal val]

Hi Sugarlobster...

I can't tell you what you want to hear. I can only tell you my experience with that combination. And I'm greedy to know so I've gotten it a few times. The Yi is telling me to be happy with the answer it's given me...to not push beyond the moment...to get to work with what I have. And, personally, I've never felt a "wink" from the Yi in that answer. I've always felt humbled.

My guess is the answer to that question is d) all of the above. There's a different value/belief system for every single human alive...a different set of needs...and there's going to be as many different receptions to your essay as there are people reading it. If you write for yourself...follow your Dao rather than serve the masses...at least one person won't be disappointed...you. And that's the most important person to consider.

Now I have a question for you. Don't you think that knowing how the essay will be received will affect your decision to write it...or how you write it? Don't you think that knowledge will take the spontaneity out of it for you?

Love,

Val

 

[cal val]

Dharma...

Just read your post. We more than "basically said the same thing." *eyes open wide*

SugarLobster...

My attitude when I'm involved in the creative process: "F*** 'em if they can't take a joke."

Love,

Val

 

[sugarlobster]

hi dharma,

yes, i'm happy to leave it at that and i think on the whole the yi's answer is very encouraging - and appropriately vague ;-) i agree that's all i need to know right now and will not ask further

but i don't think wondering about its reception is going to affect negatively the writing process. one always has the 'reader' in mind when writing, especially in the case of non-fiction (different with poetry, etc.). not the reader as frightening critic, but the reader/s as someone who will engage with what you're writing and be happy or excited to discover the material in a way they can make their own.

in this case, that's one of the reasons why i write: because i hope others will read! it's about sharing ideas, making them grow, getting feedback, pushing the boundaries of ways of thinking about things. so even if it's a solitary process in terms of the writing itself, the whole purpose of it is the sharing: iow, the audience. it is not just a personal exercise in self-expression, it's a dialogue.

anyway don't know if that makes sense?

love,
xx sugarlobster

 

[sugarlobster]

martin,

well my views i think are a bit unusual, so perhaps they will be controversial. and yes, the emphasis is on brainstorming and exploring new ideas, so it does fit with what you say.

'perseverance brings the woman into danger' says line 6 ;-)
well i'm up for it, where's the fun otherwise!

thanks for your good wishes.

love,
sugarlobster xx

 

[sugarlobster]

"Now I have a question for you. Don't you think that knowing how the essay will be received will affect your decision to write it...or how you write it? Don't you think that knowledge will take the spontaneity out of it for you?"

hi val,

mmhh... no, i really don't think so. even if i'm writing for others to read (see my answer to dharma above) it is not with a concern to get a particular type of response, but to establish a dialogue. i'm clear enough about what this project is about for me, to preserve my voice and spontaneity regardless of what i think others might make of it.

in any case i don't take the yi's answers as set in stone, but as a likely flux of possibilities to ponder, and in that sense i never think i 'know' what the final answer is even when the yi is very clear in its response.

which doesn't mean i don't approach the yi with the utmost respect - but i have found that it does have a wonderful sense of humour, and often winks, yes! i see it as a venerable taoist sage, always with a twinkle in his eye. the best teachers, in my experience, often enlighten you with a smile. and however much i might care about the question i ask at any time, when that wink comes it always reminds me: things come, things go, it's just the dance of the tao. play with all your might but remember, it's just a game.

be here now, be someplace else later! ;-)

love,
sugarlobster xx

 

[sugarlobster]

"My attitude when I'm involved in the creative process: "F*** 'em if they can't take a joke."

Love,

Val "

hear, hear!!

love,
xx sl

 

[hilary]

Hi Sugarlobster,

Loads of abundantly good sense here, and I have to agree about the twinkle - along with the big stick, at least where I'm concerned.

Though I do understand completely what you say about writing to someone and in the hope of dialogue, Yi seems to be saying counter-intuitive things about 'de contained' and the great flowing force of 11 with no particular outlet.

In this particular instance, getting the words out there is a complete achievement in itself. Having tilled the soil to the best of your ability, and seen it rained on (congratulations on having secured a publisher already!), you Wait and Expect the response. Trying to get a safe space to 'write into' would be a mistake.

Which has been said before and better further up the page. If this is a prediction, then I wouldn't expect any explosion of interest. At all events, no way to guarantee such a thing. But look across to 5, line 6 - there's no knowing who or what could visit!

Could you tell us what the book's about?

 

[candid]

Hi Sugarlobster,

I think I understand what you mean by establishing dialogue with the end reader of your book. I don?t think it conflicts much with what Val said, other than just being a different style of communicating. Your way is to reach a target demo/psychographic, establish contact with them and convey digestible ideas, hopefully with mental/emotional interactivity. Val?s saying (I think), let it rip from the heart. If it finds a responsive chord in others, great! If not, great!

I like your idea of 9 as brainstorming. Never saw it that way before, and it makes sense.

I read 6 at the top as saying, ?don?t try too hard.? This isn?t regarding the huge undertaking of writing the book; that?s obviously strenuous work. More of allowing the book to be written through you. Allowing influences to speak.

?The rain comes, there's rest.
This is due to the lasting effect of character.?

The information is in there. You have it. You can rest in that. You have gathered the rain.

?Perseverance brings the woman into danger.
The moon is nearly full.?

Probing Tao - Awesome!
Its almost time! (be excited, expectant)

?If the superior man persists,
Misfortune comes.?

If your conscious control is too strict it endangers the woman, and her influence. (trigram Sun, who is above in hexagram 9)

Wishing you the best with it.

Candid

 

[cal val]

Candid...

That's exactly what I'm saying. And, in SugarLobster's case, from her mind too. It seems she's collected data and drawn her own conclusions in her field of study that her colleagues have not.

You expressed my feelings well about artistic expression in you response to Chris's statement about playing to an audience in the Artistic/Scientific... thread. And that's exactly what I'm saying here.

When she threw the coins, she got hexagram 11. That tells me she has complete confidence in the validity of her project. And apparently she's found a publisher who has complete confidence in her project as well. Well...there you have it!

Happy writing SugarLobster!

Love,

Val

 

[sugarlobster]

hi hilary,

you're right, 'trying to get a safe space to write into would be a mistake'. there never is such a space, which is why creative projects are always risky, and always exciting.

creativity always feels dangerous, because you put yourself out there, but there is no safety net. (it can feel dangerous from the other side too - the 'receiving' side - because true creativity always challenges assumptions, habitual ways of doing and thinking, entrenched beliefs).

i think this ties in with what candid and val are saying as well: trying to construct that safety net, even feeling a need for it, interferes with the creative process. if the conscious control is too strict, if one isn't open enough and vulnerable enough to surrender to 'inspiration' (or 'allowing influences to speak' as candid puts it so beautifully, or being true to ones's own vision, or being willing to go beyond existing/accepted boundaries - all part of a similar attitude, imo), then the flow of the creative project is impeded and it loses momentum, depth and transformative power.

the tricky bit for me in this particular case, is that the medium i have chosen (academia) has very strict rules, and therefore one needs a very keen sense of them to be able to play, bend the rules, upset paradigms but stay in the game. not 'stay in the game' out of a fear of being cast out, but 'stay in the game' because that particular game is your canvas of choice, your palette, your brush. other fields (fine art, or poetry) have less of a hang-up on 'sticking to the rules' and in a sense are easier to navigate with a 'just let it all hang out' model of creativity...

so it's all a fascinating and very exciting balancing act ;-)

the book, in answer to your question, is about contemporary consumer culture and the way we relate to 'things'. i'm a cultural historian, so it looks a current cultural and social practices while grounding them in historical analysis, and social and technological contexts.

as you can see, it's never going to be a mainstream bestseller!

you said "Though I do understand completely what you say about writing to someone and in the hope of dialogue, Yi seems to be saying counter-intuitive things about 'de contained' and the great flowing force of 11 with no particular outlet." i'm not sure i understand what you mean. are you relating 11 to 9/5? or just commenting on 11 in this context?

love,
sugarlobster xx

 

[sugarlobster]

candid, hi -

thanks for a fantastic break-down of that top line. i think it's a very good way of looking at it, with its emphasis on striking a balance between conscious effort (the 'effect of character') and surrendering to the flow (by keeping the 'superior man' in check!), all within a context of expectant readiness....

well, on with the dance!!

love,

sugarlobster xx

btw 9 as brainstorming was martin's idea - i also think it's great, it sees the accumulation of tiny things as a crucible to generate quantum changes - wonderful.

 

[cal val]

SL...

I can't wait...PLEASE hurry up and write this book...this is a fascinating area to me. I've recently evolved from consumer status. I no longer buy whatever I want...or think I want because the advertiser has convinced me...I now buy only what I need. "Things" have lost their allure for me. They feel like encumbrances now.

My daughter did a film while attending UCLA Film School that focuses on the consumer mentality...how it's nurtured by the advertisers...and how destructive it can be...especially to women. I should say her focus was on the damage it can do to women.

Done in b&w, it moves like a slide show visually, with slide projector sounds and advertising slogan voice-overs...very dynamic...and very thought provoking. Maybe I can get her to make an mpg of it and put it on the net so you can see it.

Very excited about reading your book now.

Love,

Val

 

[sugarlobster]

val -

LOL! well i can't wait either, but i'm afraid we're both gonna have to - yi said 5, remember? ;-) and i haven't even properly started yet!

yes i think that trying to understand how we relate to 'stuff' is crucial, we need to do that -understand- before we can change it, and change it we must. other cultures, other historical periods, have related to things in a much more organic way, but western consumer culture is deeply disfunctional, and it makes us all unhappy.

in the late 60s and early 70s, with the first violent onslaught of consumer culture in the west and the simultaneous arrival of eastern philosophy into the mainstream, many thinkers looked at it as a dichotomy between the spiritual and the material - a fight between 'good' and 'evil', in a sense. the clearest exponent of that line of thought would have been erich fromm's book 'to have or to be' - a great read if you're interested in that tension.

in a way, my project aims to bring the spiritual back into our material culture, transcending fromm's dichotomy - i don't think it's about choosing either/ or, having/being, but rather finding a creative way of reconciling the two. and i want to bring in certain taoist concepts into the discussion, very powerful concepts i think, but it all needs to be done very carefully. academia is not partial to spiritual discussions, lol!

and yes, i'd LOVE to see your daughter's work!!

anyway this book will never get written if i spend all my time chatting here! gonna try and work a bit.

catcha later
xx sugarlobster

 

[tashiiij]

hi sugarlobster.

1st off- i love your name. lobster encrusted with sugar. wow.

baudelaire and the flaneur and consumer culture and objects.

you into that?

 

[sugarlobster]

hi tashiiij (bit screeching, that!)

thanks, glad you like the name. funnily, it came to me as an image - a beautiful deep crimson lobster with a shimmering white sugar frosting.

and yes, baudelaire, the flaneur, objects, cities, i'm into that big time. really rocks my boat.

what rocks yours?

love,
xx sugarlobster

 

[hilary]

Yes, I want to read it, too! I'll set up an Amazon affiliate link as soon as it's published.

(About that emoticon...)

I was putting 9,6 and 11 unchanging together, yes. 11 unchanging I've found to be quite unpredictable in its effects - maybe to do with having so much energy with nowhere to go. And 9,6 says (amongst other things) 'honour the de contained' - or in at least one translation, it does. This struck me as being about the same thing.

Other interesting things about that line: the superior man/ junzi runs into trouble when he 'sets out to bring order', to subdue rebellion and make the kingdom a safe and ordered place. And the woman is specifically a 'wife', a woman with a broom. I wonder whether these two aren't embarked on parallel enterprises in male and female versions. See LiSe's website (as usual).

 

[dharma]

Hilary,
one envy, greed, & insanity all wrapped into one emoticon coming up
<CENTER>

</CENTER>

 

[tashiiij]

i like your story sugarlobster.

my name is a problem isn't it. tried changing it but it's stuck now. no one on this forum could hardly talk to me till val figured out to call me tash. that broke the ice a little. believe me, i know, that little train of 'i"'s is just a wreck...and the tashi is just too steeped with tradition for my taste.

that name came to me from a 15 year old orphan girl. how could i refuse it.

charity is it's own revenge, uhhh, yes.

aside from i ching school, i'm into time travel.

how many lifetimes you got ?

 

[tashiiij]

sorry i actually mean that seriously.

 

[tashiiij]

p.s. hope i didnt sound disrespectful. lunar energies, y'know. i wish you luck with the book, and i think the yi is saying "work it 9 to 5!"

haha!!!! (that's an expression in the states for a full time job)

all the best.

tash.

 

[sugarlobster]

hi tash!

yes unfortunately we use that expression over here too! (uk) - book will have to be 5 to 10 and week-ends, though...

of course you didn't sound disrespectful. how many lifetimes? not nearly enough, i'd say, but then you say you mean it seriously, so now i don't know how to answer that ;-)

lots of love,

xx sugarlobster

 

[sugarlobster]

hi hillary,

you said
"I wonder whether these two aren't embarked on parallel enterprises in male and female versions."
well now you've really lost me! not to worry, all will be made clear when the time is right ;-)

although funnily enough i have a feeling that your comment fits into a quirky yin/yang male/female topic thread that has cropped up in my life of late... but how, i haven't got a clue.

patterns, patterns.

love,
xx sugarlobster

 

[tashiiij]

"not nearly enough' is terrific.

as to what rocks my boat, right now working on a piece about cary grant's psychotherapy sessions. to mozart and LSD. "just the high points" as the wooster group would say.

: )