a four thought

[meng]

The evening of our first readings, each made a lot of sense to us, but for one, who was new generation from old money, and who asked for his one question, “Should I get the Porsche?” His answer was 4. My close and long-time friend and I just looked at each other in agreement: we brushed it off as asking a foolish question.

Now, awhile later, I see it a bit differently - h4 does dare to ask a question: Does the Yi know how you will like something if you don't try it? Is it possible, that Yi is the ignorant one in this case? Maybe you’ll love it, maybe you won't. Aren't such life experiences for you to discover, rather than to know every outcome of every action, from following a prediction?

I hear the Yi asking these days, “How am I supposed to know? That’s for you to determine. You are awake in there, aren’t you? Would you like me to live your life for you too? Be careful what you ask for.”

 

[anemos]

I'm deleting my initial post because after editing and re-editing in my mind didn't felt ok...

when Yi doesn't respond, in which cases; how trivial or not are ours question; don't know. Was doubting with the answer I was giving to myself and the uncertainty was still there... Maybe that'w why the 4's we get.... because sometimes we just can't know and that might be frustrating but also make the water run...

maybe it the training the teacher does to the student to find its own way specifically and generally... that sometimes we can;t know and have to get used to that uncertainty...

dunno ...

 

[rosada]

I interpreted h4 in this instance as meaning not that the question was foolish or that the I Ching didn't know the answer, but that getting the Porsche would be a sort of madcap "foolish" thing to do.

rosada

 

[meng]

I interpreted h4 in this instance as meaning not that the question was foolish or that the I Ching didn't know the answer, but that getting the Porsche would be a sort of madcap "foolish" thing to do.

rosada

I could understand that, however if anyone was ever suited to buy and drive a new Porsche, it would have been this well-to-do young fellow. His family was wealthy and he was destined for great things, initially in science (designing guidance systems), until he and two partners began the first computer animation and movie production company, back in the 70's (anyone remember those early Norelco electric shaver animated commercials?). He's since moved onto private jets, which he pilots, and a Maserati (given to him as a bonus after completing a popular movie). He's also suffered his share of great personal losses.

So you see, his question was foolish only because the only way he'd know whether he'd like the potential new Porsche was not by asking an oracle but by asking himself, after he'd have the chance to find out. It was his opinion and his opinion only which mattered; there was nothing foolish about this guy buying and driving a new Porsche, which he did wind up buying, and which I drove (awesome driving machine), along with his Saab that he bought for his wife shortly after, along with a mansion in upper NY state.

Anyway, this came up recently, when I received h4 about purchasing a particular guitar neck, which I'd been angst-ing over for months. I could afford it, though not without budgeting for it, I certainly would use and appreciate playing it (I've already tried one exactly like it on the guitar I'm customizing). It was neither a foolish consideration or action to buy or not to buy. Hey, I ain't gettin' no younger! There simply was no way the Yi could answer a question that only I could answer. The whole reading was 4.1,4 - 38. It was true, I was opposing this action, then asking Yi essentially, will I like it? What a dumb question! How should Yi know? Do I or don't I wish to, or not? Anyway, after the reading, I ordered it; should be here Monday. It's no Porsche, but the relative fiscal cost and the metaphor is comparative. I think it's worth considering.

 

[littlebuddha]

The evening of our first readings, each made a lot of sense to us, but for one, who was new generation from old money, and who asked for his one question, “Should I get the Porsche?” His answer was 4. My close and long-time friend and I just looked at each other in agreement: we brushed it off as asking a foolish question.

Ehem, i don't know how to word this one, without sounding vulgar... I don't have idolatric attitude to the Yi, nor to any other book, but i do treat with utmost respect sources from which i reckon i am getting wisdom - be it books, people, nature or whatever 'teaches' me at the time. Now, i have a close friend, an artist, a lucid and intelligent woman who is way more non-traditional in her worldview generally, in her relationships and life in general; we get along very well with respect to each other's differences; she worked a lot with Yi... but can you imagine my UTTER DISBELIEF upon her sharing with me that she consulted Yi on ... her eventual partners' manhood size?! Firstly, i don't think intimacy should be discussed with third parties (me in this case), secondly, imho the question is foolish... But that's ME and my judgement, she did get answers to what she was asking... So, i don't think Yi would apriori ellitistically dismiss buying Porsche as non-issue; Chinese are actually known to enjoy the material world, i do doubt 'twas the first time in history that such a question was asked... Maybe it was expensive horses before that used to be equivalent to nowadays cars of a kind?
Anyway it is, on occasions i am asking non-philosophical and very down to earth questions myself... To my own amazement, most of the times, i am getting quite precise answers.
(Btw, i agree with rosada's take on this one.)

 

[chingching]

I like seeing 4 as teaching and learning, where often the teacher is in fact the one learning or more over both are two sides of the same coin. I've always viewed divination as like making a phone call to your subconscious, even unconscious self or whatever we can call that which is immaterial. That part of us can have a magic kind of knowing but it can't experience what our body and senses can, the two are both teachers and learners for each other. At least that's one point of view, similar to Plato's argument for the soul in the phaedo. I also see the point of life being about teaching and learning, experiencing and understanding and articulating, passing the understanding on. To make the unknown known. So ido were there that day I would said, buy the porsche. Understanding through the mind alone Palestine in comparison to have having felt it. I've taken a ride in a porsche before, pretty good. Saying all that has made me think of all those movies about aliens that take human form and they can't help but try out human experience including love, and its really just how a lot of us experience life anyway, like we are here to enjoy and experience everything that comes our way.

 

[meng]

Ehem, i don't know how to word this one, without sounding vulgar... I don't have idolatric attitude to the Yi, nor to any other book, but i do treat with utmost respect sources from which i reckon i am getting wisdom - be it books, people, nature or whatever 'teaches' me at the time. Now, i have a close friend, an artist, a lucid and intelligent woman who is way more non-traditional in her worldview generally, in her relationships and life in general; we get along very well with respect to each other's differences; she worked a lot with Yi... but can you imagine my UTTER DISBELIEF upon her sharing with me that she consulted Yi on ... her eventual partners' manhood size?! Firstly, i don't think intimacy should be discussed with third parties (me in this case), secondly, imho the question is foolish... But that's ME and my judgement, she did get answers to what she was asking... So, i don't think Yi would apriori ellitistically dismiss buying Porsche as non-issue; Chinese are actually known to enjoy the material world, i do doubt 'twas the first time in history that such a question was asked... Maybe it was expensive horses before that used to be equivalent to nowadays cars of a kind?
Anyway it is, on occasions i am asking non-philosophical and very down to earth questions myself... To my own amazement, most of the times, i am getting quite precise answers.
(Btw, i agree with rosada's take on this one.)

Exactly. We were already elitist in our philosophy (at 22, who isn't? lol), and using Wilhelm as our only reference certainly seemed to justify and even edify our 'high-mindedness', which was actually our superego or conscience, sense of rightness etc.

Which is why I said, I've realized that 4 must have had a different meaning, being that there's no way the Yi could answer the question since it's unknown and purely personal or subjective, and even my friend couldn't know, until he took the leap and got one.

Speaking of: Today the guitar neck in question arrived, and after some preliminary preparation, it installed perfectly into the guitar neck pocket, but it was a total surprise! Though it was the same brand, model and year (new), and the carve, though similar, was a good deal smaller. All of this model are known for their chunky soft V shaped necks. This one was the same but considerably less beefy. This all was unknown to me. I chose the neck for the shape and got a smaller version. Turns out, I'm liking it a lot on the guitar for which I purchased it, but I wouldn't have guessed it would be this different from my other one. And how was Yi to know whether it would suit me or not? In this case, I inform the Yi, "I like it, but didn't expect it, didn't know.

 

[meng]

I think it's obvious to all who use the oracle, that Yi doesn't always predict outcomes so much as offering a clear image, symbol or metaphor, to inform us. Intelligence informs us, fills in a lot of blanks, so we can learn how to make better decisions. But even there, who or what decides what better for ourselves is, but we ourselves.

littlebuddha, I had to chuckle at the image simile: your inquisitive friend's penis size question, and a guitar neck. Freud would be proud. I too think it not an illogical question, to inquire about an object, any object, weighing the cost vs value received. Several places in Yi speak of increase, and often that can be quite physically literal. Whereas 14 seems to refer more specifically to riches of the soul, which I almost always experience as emptiness.

 

[Owlietta]

Surprisingly, 4 turned up when I asked a completely valid and meaningful question.

I asked "will I get the job?"
and received 4 "youthful folly" with changing lines 2, 4, 6 which beomes 16 "enthusiasm".

I feel 75% certain I will get the job, but of course one never knows. It's not like it's a stupid question!
Maybe the idea of taking the job is foolish. uch:

 

[Owlietta]

About 30 minutes after I asked "will I get the job" and received hexagram 4 and then posted here wondering why I got such a flippant response from i-ching, the phone rang and I was offered the job.

Question answered.

 

[Rci028]

The I Ching never responds in a chastising way. The answer is direct. In this case it means buying a porsche would be a rather foolish thing to do although this does not necessarily indicate misfortune.