A solution to end world hunger? Maybe not, but...

[cal val]

As some of you are aware, I'm working on my "plan." The Yi has been very encouraging. 46.1 to 11 for one thing. It's a rather grand plan that I think will benefit many. I've done quite a bit of work on it so far, but it's rather monumental, and I will need help at some point soon to proceed to the final stage.

To that end, the Yi advised 27/2.5 to 61. Coates' interpretation of line 27.5 is a perfect example of what I mean about his interpretation being relevant to achieving goals. It fits my situation and feelings about achieving my goal perfectly.

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR SIZE=0><!-Quote-!><FONT SIZE=1>Quote:</FONT>

5. [6] A man has the concept of a great work that he realizes should be done -- a work that would contribute mightily to the nourishment of mankind -- but he is not capable of pulling it off himself. He lacks the strength or the knowledge of the ability to do it. He only envisions the goal, but recognizes that it is a worthy one. Although he would like to be the leader of the enterprise, and launch out on his own, he is compelled to consult with and seek the assistance of another who has the required strengths, even though this may not be fully recognized. If he works with and through this more capable man, the enterprise can be successful. But he must remain aware that he is not the one who has the necessary talent. A great work will not be accomplished, however, if instead he is led by arrogance or a desire for recognition and thrusts himself forward as the main force that is doing the job. To do that would cause the whole project to collapse and the great work to fail of accomplishment.<!-/Quote-!><HR SIZE=0></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is the project, although I didn't know what it would be until recently, that I've always known and always said would have to be accomplished in partnership with another. I've sought out a partner because of a dream I had. I've since determined that the recognizable person in the dream is most probably a stand-in to indicate to me that I need a partner and to indicate the direction I must go with this. He's not my first choice at any rate, so I asked about another person, in particular, as possibly possessing the capabilities to help me see this project to fruition, and they answered 39/1.6 to 37.

I've read Coates' interpretation, of course, but I'm not going to post it here because on this one I want additional input. I want other perspectives. Any insights you can offer on 39 to 37 will be most appreciated.

Thank you.

Love,

Val

 

[joang]

Val...
From reading W/B, it sounds to me like you have picked the right man, but it will take some persuasion to get him into the work. I would guess that you need to find out as much as you can about what makes him tick, so that your presentation resonates with his interests, values, concerns, and so forth.

Best of luck,
Joan

 

[cal val]

Hi Joan...

Thank you so much for this reading. It confirms what I understood as well except that I can't find where it indicates the need for persuasion in it. That's my inexperience with the Yi, no doubt, or possibly it's because I can't be as objective as you can since I'm so invested in the answer. Would you mind explaining for me how you arrived at that insight.

Meanwhile this is what I got and I'd love your thoughts on it.

This is where I've been: 39 (Obstruction); and, with the help of this partner, this where I'm going: 37 (Family)

With a bit of a gender change, the W/B interpretation of the Image of 39 really hits home:

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR SIZE=0><!-Quote-!><FONT SIZE=1>Quote:</FONT>

Water on the mountain;
The image of OBSTRUCTION.
thus the superior woman turns her attention to herself
And molds her character.

Difficulties and obstructions throw a woman back upon herself. While the inferior woman seeks to put the blame on other persons, bewailing her fate, the superior woman seeks the error within herself, and through this introspection the external obstacle becomes for her an occasion for inner enrichment and education.<!-/Quote-!><HR SIZE=0></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's just what I've been through for the last year.

Again with a gender change, the six at the top seems pretty straightforward as an apt reflection of my position.

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR SIZE=0><!-Quote-!><FONT SIZE=1>Quote:</FONT>

Going leads to obstructions,
Coming leads to great good fortune.
It furthers one to see the great man.

This refers to a woman who has already left the world and its tumult behind her. When the time of obstructions arrives, it might seem that the simplest thing for her to do would be to turn her back upon the world and take refuge in the beyond. But this road is barred to her. She must not seek her own salvation and abandon the world to its adversity. Duty calls her back once more into the turmoil of life. Precisely because of her experience and inner freedom, she is able to create something both great and complete that brings good fortune. And it is favorable to see the great man in alliance with whom one can ahcieve the work of rescue.<!-/Quote-!><HR SIZE=0></BLOCKQUOTE>

However, it may be referring to the potential partner's position, and this may be where you see the need for persuasion. Leaving the gender as masculine with the only change being "And it is favorable to see the great woman in alliance with whom one can ahcieve the work of rescue." Again...I would love to hear your thoughts.

That the situation changes to Family is pretty encouraging. That sounds like an ideal partnership to me... a partnership so close knit it achieves the status of Family.

Thanks for all your help!

Love,

Val

 

[joang]

Yes, Val,
I did read the top line as referring to this man, partly because the top line is often considered ?outside?. And since the line reads, ?This refers to a man who has already left the world and its tumult behind him,? I assumed he has his reasons, and that these reasons would be ?obstructions? that you would have to overcome in order to draw him into the work. All of my comments rest on that assumption.

The ?persuasion? part of my interpretation was based partly on inference (since you cannot put a gun to his head); partly on life?s lessons (seeing how win-win negotiating works); and of course the IC itself. Although persuasion is not mentioned in 39.6, the means of winning people over is suggested in many passages in the IC. The one in particular that came to mind was from 61 where it says,

?the whole secret of success depends on finding the right way of approach. One must first rid oneself of all prejudice and, so to speak, let the psyche of the other person act on one with-out restraint. Then one will establish contact with him, understand and gain power over him. When a door has thus been opened, the force of one's personality will influence him. If in this way one finds no obstacles insurmountable, one can undertake even the most dangerous things, such as crossing the great water, and succeed.?

IMO, this ties in neatly with one of the main principles of win-win-negotiating, where the primary focus is on the other?s needs, goals, interests, etc., and one?s own are made secondary. That?s why I suggested finding out as much as you can about what makes him tick, what motivates him the most, so that you can determine the right and most effective way to present your proposal. It would help to know, for example, whether humanitarianism or the profit motive ranks highest with him. If it is humanitarianism, it may be duty that ?calls him back once more into the turmoil of life?. But I would guard against using ?shoulds? or ?oughts? which often arouse resistance. Better that he sees that duty himself and accepts it voluntarily.

Good luck with your plan to feed the hungry. I hope it is better than the ?Soylent Green? solution. ;-)

Namaste,
Joan

 

[frederick]

Val -

Guns? Canibalism?
What have you got going on here?

Although, something Joan said seems vaguely familar...

Love and admiration-

Fred

"People - People who eat people - are the luckyest people - in the world..."
B. Streisand

 

[cal val]

Hi Joang and Fred...

The project is not about feeding the hungry, but it is important and would benefit many.

Joang, thank you so much for helping me understand the line. I read the E. Robert Coates interpretation again and realized that I'm not the subject of line 6 , but the sage that one must approach in the last sentence of the W/B interpretation actually is.

And I agree with you on the "should" communication. Advising mode doesn't work in any situation that I can think of at the moment. Can't really think at the moment. I feel confused and bewildered and very hurt right now. I approached him, I tried to persuade him. I told him what I want and how important I feel he is to the project...how important I feel it is that we partner...and he rejected me. I almost feel like I'm being set up for rejection by the Yi. That's why I asked for input on this line...to be absolutely sure I was reading it right...and wasn't reading something into it that wasn't there.

Thank you for your help, Joan.

Love,

Val

 

[cal val]

Joang...

Looking at your quote of 61, "Then one will establish contact with him, understand and gain power over him."

Maybe that's my problem. I don't want power over him. He is humanitarian. That is what makes him tick. I want him to do what he thinks is right in his heart. And I want him to want this in his heart. This all brings to mind the lyrics from the Marvin Gaye song, "I Want You."

I want you the right way
I want you but I want you to want me too
I want you to want me baby
Just like I want you

I love those lyrics. I have for many years because they say, "I want you" not "I need you." Maybe if I "needed," I might have a chance. One can gain power over a good and giving man by "needing," but that's not the kind of partnership I want.

I don't know if this is what you mean, Joan. Maybe I don't understand that particular part of 61, but I've never liked reading "gain power over him."

Love,

Val

 

[joang]

Sorry I was too late with my advice, Val. I didn't know your approaching him was so imminent.

There were four "I"s in the sentence "I told him what I want and how important I feel he is to the project...how important I feel it is that we partner..." The main idea in win-win negotiating is to get more "you"s in there. There are many books and articles available on the subject that I think would be very helpful to you. With luck, maybe you'll get a chance to approach him again.

Fred, people who eat people are the yuckiest people in the world.

Namaste,
Joan

 

[joang]

Val,
the only power I was speaking of is the power of persuasion. There is nothing wrong with that, is there? I also think that is the kind of power that the IC is alluding to in 61, the power of persuasion through both words and deeds.

"The root of all influence lies in one's own inner being: given true and vigorous expression in word and deed, its effect is great."

Namaste,
Joan

 

[cal val]

Joan...

The *I* sentence was making a point here about my approach. Don't think for a minute I repeated here everything I said in my approach. There were plenty of "you"s but not the manipulative kind. That was my point. My approach was not manipulative. I don't do manipulative.

Again, as I said in my last post, I do not want power over him. I do not want to be able to manipulate him. I want him to want this in his heart too. And he knows that.

Love,

Val

 

[joang]

Easy there, Val,
I said nothing about manipulating, and meant nothing about manipulating, because I detest manipulators. Win-win negotiating is about coming to a mutual agreement that is beneficial to both sides. One way to do that is to emphasize how your proposal would benefit the other party. That's all. Nothing sinister in that.

Namaste,
Joan (exiting stage right)

 

[cal val]

Hi Joan,

I'm so sorry for any misunderstanding. We are in complete agreement about most things.

First of all, for the record, I know a bit about persuasion and language. I was nominated by my English teacher for Valedictorian because, he said, of my persuasive writing style. The thing about "persuasion" is that it can be construed to mean many different things, the list of synonyms is long. I once posted the list from Roget's Thesaurus here in this forum. It is all too often used as a synonym for what is really manipulation, and I merely wanted to be clear that I know this and avoid it.

You said, "The root of all influence lies in one's own inner being: given true and vigorous expression in word and deed, its effect is great." The influence that eminates from the inner-self is not willfull persuasion...aka manipulation. It is the result of one's being. We agree. And if you re-read my post, you will see I never said you said anything about manipulation. I said it was my point. I was speaking of myself...not you.

That kind of influence...that is not willfull... is not, however, about gaining power over another person... it's about radiating one's own power unconsciously, and not taking away. Power can be shared. Gaining power over another, however, is not sharing...it necessarily takes away. Gaining power over another is not win-win, and I think Wilhelm's language is flawed in that regard. Now, again, Joan, I want to be clear that I'm talking about Wilhelm and not you.

You said, "One way to do that is to emphasize how your proposal would benefit the other party." And that's what I did... but not exactly. I didn't appeal to his self-interest. I know him. I told him how I feel this project would benefit many. I believe that's more important to him than how it would benefit him. From what I know of him, I believe his benefit is in helping others, and I don't have to tell him that. He knows that about himself.

And I know a little about win-win language, as well... not negotiating...it's a little early in the process here to talk about negotiating...I have only just pitched my proposal. But I suspect that's not really what you meant. As a side note, I was able once to help effect some changes that benefitted many with a proposal I wrote entitled "Win-Win", but that's another post in itself.

You betcha I use the "I" word! And that's where we do disagree. Using the "I" word (I think, I want, I believe, I feel) is very important in communicating and to win-win negotiating. Just about any mental health professional worth his fees will tell you that. The reason being when one says "I feel," "I want," "I believe" etc. one keeps their power where it belongs...one does not give it away, and one does not take it away from the person one is communicating with. The "you" word used as the object of the sentence too often achieves the opposite. It's, in fact, too often manipulative. And, just like you...and me, most people resent and resist attempts to manipulate them. (As a reminder, I posted some links you might enjoy to some resources about effective communications and the ever important "I" word in the "Inherent Bad Self" thread.)

If I were to appeal to his self-interest, which, I believe, is a mistake, it would be far more effective to say "I feel you will benefit for the following reasons" than to say "You will benefit for the following reasons." With the former you allow the other person to decide whether he feels he will benefit or not. With the latter, you're telling him something that is his to decide... and a natural reaction for many would be to think, "I'll decide what's good for me." That doesn't bode well for negotiating...or proposing a project...which is only as far as I got.

Here's an excerpt I took from "Win-Win Negotiating, adapted from "Negotiating for Dummies", however:

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR SIZE=0><!-Quote-!><FONT SIZE=1>Quote:</FONT>

"Win-win negotiating does not mean that you must give up your goals or worry about the other person getting what they want in the negotiation. You have your hands full looking out for your own interests. Let others bear the primary responsibility for achieving their goals. Don't think that you need to ride rough-shod over your opponents. Practice honesty and respect in all your negotiations. But looking out for the other side isn't your job. It's theirs."<!-/Quote-!><HR SIZE=0></BLOCKQUOTE>

...which is another way of saying what I just said, but with a different appeal.

I also want you to rest assured that how you think or feel about anything has absolutely nothing to do with how I feel or think about anything. I'm fine with your beliefs and choices, etc...for you. Nothing I've said here is meant to negate anything you've said. I am merely asserting my feelings about these particular issues. Again...this isn't about you. It's just as I stated. It's about him and me and Wilhelm. I also want to let you know once more how much I appreciate all your help in understanding 39.6. Thank you!

I just have one little question for you. Please let me know if I'm wrong, but it appears you know why he rejected my appeal in that you've taken it upon yourself to instruct me in win-win negotiating. If that's the case, I'd love to know how you were able to find this out when I don't even know yet!!! At this point, I can only speculate, and that is it has nothing to do with my proposal, but, instead, is about a conflict of interest.

Joan..............peace..........*grin*

Love,

Val

 

[frederick]

Val -

I owe you an apology.
Please understand that I really only communicate about the Yi with people who know nothing beyond fear and intimidation. For the most part, to them, I'm a last ditch effort. In my attempts to keep them on the planet, I lose sight, and forget that not everybody is that way. It sometimes gets the best of me.
This peer encounter is not at all what I'm used to. I promise to do better.
I don't give breaks, I don't accept excuses, and I expect the same in kind...
But, believe me, I am truly so sorry. I do hope you can find room in your kind heart to forgive my selfish insolence.

Sincerely, all my love -

Frederick