Clarity,
Office 17622,
PO Box 6945,
London.
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Phone/ Voicemail:
+44 (0)20 3287 3053 (UK)
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Done(Techy aside: if you want to shrink your images, Xenforo (the forum software) makes it really easy, bless them.
1. Click the edit button beneath your post.
2. Click the image - you'll see tiny gray handles at the corners:
View attachment 4104
3. Click and drag them with your mouse.
The full size will still be available to people: shrunken images can be clicked and opened in a lightbox where several things can be done to them.)
.... it is something that is based on a cycle, as you see in the image.
.... after Tai Yang comes Shao Yin, Tai Yin and Shao Yin.
I found this logic as well. Even if, as Dfreed puts it, it is not a loop, since at our level of change things happen in a more chaotic way, full of contingencies. Even though, spring - summer - autumn - winter is kinda "loopy", and so is the Earths orbit around the Sun, growth and decay, and all that is necessary, it is also true that we inhabit a plane of reality in which things can happen, or cannot. Unless, of course, we believe that every contingency is actually inscribed in a larger cycle, which is necessary, and in this case, everything ends up working out in a cyclic way. Following this way of thinking, we could affirm that all good leads to bad, and all bad leads to good; after joy comes sadness and after loss comes gain. Anyways, while the cyclic way of looking at it seems to me a good starting point, what really bothers me is the nature of Shao Yin and Shao Yang, as I'll explain in a moment.You can easily find information about the four images, but it is something that is based on a cycle, as you see in the image.
This is very accurate.any given reading is not a continuous cycle, loop or process that goes on and on .... Instead, unmoving lines - Shao Yin and Shao Yang - remain unmoving (regardless of what they started out as).
So, this is basically it. This is what I was actually concerned about. I'm glad you stated this. According to logic (and many versions use this logic, which is why I'm struggling to decide which one is correct), things grow from the bottom up. Yes, this is true.The reason for my wondering is what I have found concerning the Trigrams where - again according to my logic - the sequence will be like Yang moving up signifying Spring thus: Zhen & Li then Tui & Qian (Thunder & Fire, Lake & Heaven). From here on the Yin starts moving up etc.
I never got that really clarified
the first system should be correct. It is also the one breakmov described in his cyclic diagram.again according to my logic - the sequence will be like Yang moving up signifying
Even if, as Dfreed puts it, it is not a loop, since at our level of change things happen in a more chaotic way, full of contingencies. Even though, spring - summer - autumn - winter is kinda "loopy", and so is the Earths orbit around the Sun, growth and decay, and all that is necessary,
This is very accurate. See, If you take a hexagram, lets say, Qian, and .... you follow the cycle you (@breakmov) depicted, then you will go from hexagram 1 to hexagram 64
I've always had it this way, as most XX century authors did put it:
Yet, nowadays, Hatcher and Vilá, which are much newer translations, put it the other way around:
It is the underlying structure that allows the oracle to work. And you could perfectly elaborate a method that includes bigrams as means of interpretation. I don't use them for interpretation either, but I do take interest in what happens beneath the symbols and imagery. When we say "a 9 turns into a 8", we are basically following this "loopy" diagram of the 4 images, which goes like 9 - 8 - 6 - 7 - 9 ...at least not when I am interpreting a casting.
Oh, no, no. It is all definately part of the same order. What I'm trying to say, is that from our limited, subjective viewpoint, many things that happen to us don't seem to be connected to a higher order of things, but they just happen. Now, I'm not saying they don't belong to a necessary cycle, I just say we might not be able (neither would it be fruitful) to know which bigger cycle each of the contingencies belongs to.Further, this chaos, 'full of contingencies' is as much a part of the universe as are the seasons, and the earth's orbit, and the cycles of growth and decay. I can't see how you can make a distinction between the two (as you seem to be doing)?
Yeah, I agree with this.and perhaps it's the "XX authors" who got it all mixed up (and loopy)?
Yeah, basically what I tried to say above.I explored the 'si xiang' or four types of two-line figures, but never found them of much use in doing divination (working with the Yi); except that they are perhaps a fanciful (or 'loopy') way of talking about the four lines, that we get when we cast the numbers 6,7,8,9 which are elemental to how I work with the Yi - since they give us our moving and unmoving lines!
Well, it's not just for the fun of it. It's to try and understand the inner working of a symbol. i'm not talking about which one to name yin or yang. I couldn't care less about how everyone names them. What i am interested is in which one is supposed to represent "going up" or "going down"; which one represents "increase" and which one represents "decrease", and so on and so forth. You can call them Antonia and Juanita as far as im concerned, i just want to see what you think about the direction each one of them represent, etc.So, from my perspective it doesn't really matter what you call them - shao yin or shao yang, etc. - or where you place them in a graphic, since they do what they do despite all of this. If you call a hammer a wrench, it's still a hammer; I can't see why we'd want to make the 'xi xiang' more chaotic, or loopy, or add any contingenices to something that is - at it's core - very basic, meaningful and useful.
And again, as much as i agree with this, i can't see why you put this in many of your responses. no one is (as far as i can see) stating the absolute correctness his or her own method or theories. I dont say "this is true and you are incorrect", i am more keen of hearing you our and considering your responses as someone who might have something to say that i dont know or didnt think about yet.PPPS - I think that all of us need to be aware of 'confirmation bias': where we believe something and we then look for 'evidence' - and we bend or 'warp' the evidence to suit our needs, or only look at one part of the 'truth' - to support our beliefs, regardess of how true, or real they are. I see this all the time in modern US politics, and I sometimes see it when people discuss the Yi, or other spiritual matters.
.... you could perfectly elaborate a method that includes bigrams as means of interpretation. I don't use them for interpretation either, but I do take interest in what happens beneath the symbols and imagery. When we say "a 9 turns into a 8", we are basically following this "loopy" diagram of the 4 images, which goes like 9 - 8 - 6 - 7 - 9 ...
.... I'm not talking about which one to name yin or yang. I couldn't care less about how everyone names them. What i am interested is in which one is supposed to represent "going up" or "going down"; which one represents "increase" and which one represents "decrease", and so on and so forth.
And ... as much as i agree with this, i can't see why you put this (what I was saying about confirmation bias) in many of your responses.
What I'm trying to say, is that from our limited, subjective viewpoint, many things that happen to us don't seem to be connected to a higher order of things, but they just happen. Now, I'm not saying they don't belong to a necessary cycle, I just say we might not be able (neither would it be fruitful) to know which bigger cycle each of the contingencies belongs to.
Thank you all for your answers.
I found this logic as well. Even if, as Dfreed puts it, it is not a loop, since at our level of change things happen in a more chaotic way, full of contingencies. Even though, spring - summer - autumn - winter is kinda "loopy", and so is the Earths orbit around the Sun, growth and decay, and all that is necessary, it is also true that we inhabit a plane of reality in which things can happen, or cannot. Unless, of course, we believe that every contingency is actually inscribed in a larger cycle, which is necessary, and in this case, everything ends up working out in a cyclic way. Following this way of thinking, we could affirm that all good leads to bad, and all bad leads to good; after joy comes sadness and after loss comes gain. Anyways, while the cyclic way of looking at it seems to me a good starting point, what really bothers me is the nature of Shao Yin and Shao Yang, as I'll explain in a moment.
This is very accurate.
See, If you take a hexagram, lets say, Qian, and you consider it to be "a duplicated trigram", in which lines 1 and 2, 3 and 4, 5 and 6, all form three Tai Yangs, and you follow the cycle you (breakmov) depicted, then you will go from hexagram 1 to hexagram 64, Wei Ji (three Shao Yin), from there you'll go to hexagram 2, Kun (three Tai Yin), from there to hexagram 63, Ji Ji, and from there we move back to hexagram 1. As you can imagine, you could build up 16 of these cycles. If we combine the "cyclic" theory of the four images with the incontinuity Dfreed states, then we could conceive each mutation to be a jump between one of the 16 cycles to another.
View attachment 4113
So, this is basically it. This is what I was actually concerned about. I'm glad you stated this. According to logic (and many versions use this logic, which is why I'm struggling to decide which one is correct), things grow from the bottom up. Yes, this is true.
I've always had it this way, as most XX century authors did put it:
View attachment 4109
Yet, nowadays, Hatcher and Vilá, which are much newer translations, put it the other way around:
View attachment 4110
According to the logic Surnevs describes, namely:
the first system should be correct. It is also the one breakmov described in his cyclic diagram.
Yet, it seems to be rather incorrect. And this incorrectness seems to be visible in trigrams like Xun, wind, and Dui, lake. According to the cyclic viewpoint, Dui should move upwards (how a lake moves up, i do now know) and Xun should move down (and i have never felt a wind moving vertically downwards). So, the second way of looking at it, which is, according to Hatcher, found in the Song Dinasty writings, does has some sense to it aswell!
.... Much has been written, and I simply cannot keep up with this pace .... I don't know how such a big turnaround was possible regarding the correct sequence of the 4 images ....
Based on Nielsen: Kong Yingda (574-648 AD) - for example, in talking about the four kinds of lines - said that 7 indicates a stable or Young Yang line, which Zhu Xi (1130-1200 AD) called the Lesser Yang, which is the same as Hatcher's Shao Yang.
Hatcher also relates the Shao Yang with Spring and East, which is also what Yu Fan (164-233 AD) did when ascribing it to trigam Thunder's place in the later heaven, or houtian bagua arrangement.
... he replaced his entire post with one sentence. I have no idea why.
.... I don't understand what all of you are talking about here,
Could anyone share some good sources about the nature of the Four Images or Si Xiang?
AgreedThat was the first post of the thread, the entire foundation for it, and it's a loss to the thread that you deleted it.
Okay, good, I just don't want to lose any useful information. (But I think I'd still like the original post back. Plutonian?)I feel I've provided a good summary of some of the dicussion and issues in Post 15 above
I also have not the faintest idea what this thread is about but I may have had more of an idea if the first post was intact
(But I think I'd still like the original post back. Plutonian?)
Eh? Is there confusion?whoever you are
But I think Plutonian, who as the thread starter decides what the thread was to be about, was interested in looking at the the larger cycles and deeper meanings.I believe this thread is confusing, in part, because some people are looking at the big picture, larger 'cycles' and deeper meanings that these four (2-line figures) might represent.
Is this the Nielsen you mean?https://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/fri...elsens-a-companion-to-yi-jing-reissued.24378/
But I think Plutonian, who as the thread starter decides what the thread was to be about, was interested in looking at the the larger cycles and deeper meanings.
Clarity,
Office 17622,
PO Box 6945,
London.
W1A 6US
United Kingdom
Phone/ Voicemail:
+44 (0)20 3287 3053 (UK)
+1 (561) 459-4758 (US).