An apparently incorrect answer from the oracle

[DanielH]

I have been using the 16-marble method for many weeks now, and have been increasingly concerned about its effectiveness. Because of this, I did a reading using the computer casting program on this website, asking if the marble method was an effective method. I received #16, with no moving lines, and this seems to me to be saying that it is favorable, etc. to use the marble method.

However, I used the marble method last week, asking if some missing audio cds were on a particular shelf in my house. I received #22, lines 2 and 6 moving, and changing into #11. "Adorning", as with a metaphorical beard and chin (i.e. line 2's text), seems to be saying that one or more of the missing cds are "attached to" or located on the shelf in question. But, after a VERY thorough search on, above, under, next to, and behind that shelf, none of the cds were there. This is very worrisome, not only because it appears as though the answer was wrong, but that the computer casting method (which I have used for a number of readings over the last couple of years), also appears questionable.

I would very much like to get some input on this troubling situation. Please let me know what you make of it.

Thanks,

Dan H

 

[hmesker]

Finding objects with the Yi is a specialized subject, you need to know a lot about the used imagery to be able to arrive at the right conclusion. You interpret the answer of the Yi as if the CD's MUST be on the shelf, and since they aren't there you come to the conclusion that the Yi is wrong. Have you ever considered that your interpretation might be wrong?

Anyway, I'd rather look near your audio equipment than on the shelf you mentioned - you have a better chance of finding the CD's there, maybe hidden under other CD's or stuff (this doesn't mean I'm an expert in this matter, far from that).

 

[peter2610]

Hello Dan,

The trigram Li is often used by the I Ching to represent thought process, idea, conscious awareness. Ken, of course, represents Mountain which is often used to represent restriction, limit, boundary. Hex. 22 places Li under Ken, thought/idea under extreme restriction - the I Ching is NOT encouraging this idea. The quality of Grace originates in the ability to control and restrict one’s ego.

2nd yin (the beard on the chin) is seen as a non-essential decorative addition, an attractive but useless idea (springing out of Li) is seen as needing even greater restriction and restraint (line resultant Hex 26).

Top yang is urging you to seek Simple Grace, without ornament or elaboration simply lay the humble earth on your surging ideas and abide in Peace - Hex 11.

The I Ching is not telling you where your missing CD’s are (and it might not necessarily do so) but it is telling you that they are not on the shelf (and the Parallel Nuclear Progression 40-54 is telling you exactly the same thing).

PS: The ruling line of Hex 16 is 4th yang. The essential meaning of the line text for 4th yang (Wilhelm) is 'Doubt not'

 

[pocossin]

Are missing audio cds were on a particular shelf?
22.2.6 > 11

Unless you are incapacitated and have difficulty reaching the shelf, this question is frivolous. It is like asking, "Is it raining outside?" Just step outside and check. Why bother with divination? The method of casting does not give insight into the human condition. The casting suggests that the missing cds were moved when straightening up and are stored safely.

 

[sooo]

Hey, Dan.

I'll go out on a limb on this one and suggest that your 22 reading is referring to your doubt concerning method as being superfluous though not immoral per se, particularly line 2. And, that the pure light of line 6 can be seen whether you use the marbles, coins, yarrow, or virtual binary methods. Unless I'm mistaken, this is the heart of your question here, not about if your CD's are on your shelf at home. I'm assuming you're not at home to check for yourself.

Fwiw, I most frequently use a virtual marble method and find it to be reliable.

 

[DanielH]

Many thanks to hmesker, peter2610, pocossin and sooo for all your ideas pertaining to my dilemma. I am giving them all much consideration and I find that they at least offer some possible, and plausible, alternative interpretations and explanations. Also, I apparently failed, initially, to clarify my situation adequately. Since I am crippled and mostly bedridden, I wanted to use the divination to see if the cds were there before I asked my overburdened family members to make a search of the hard-to-reach area. And, I certainly did consider other interpretations, but I felt that they were either too abstract or tangential to my question, and though they were possible in theory, they just didn't seem quite right to me, and so it began to reinforce my doubts about the marble method.

One of the most reasonable, and likely, alternative interpretations that I considered was the one which pocossin seems to have offered; that the movement of line 2 (the "beard") with line 3 (the "chin" or "face") indicated that the cds in question had been moved at some point from the shelf. Since you mentioned it, pocossin, I have begun to seriously reconsider it (by the way, the actual movement of line 2 with that of line 3 is what has given me the most doubt about my own interpretation that the cds were shown to be on the shelf in question, since obviously these things and the shelf would not be moving from one place to another!). One difficulty that I do have with pocossin's interpretation is the partial obstruction (as I understand it) of the upper trigram, Gen/Mountain, which, according to several I-Ching scholars, results in the small or limited success described in Bi's decision. If Bi, with lines 2 and 6 moving, means that the cds have been moved to another location, is the Mountain then seen not as an obstruction but as a place of rest (as you, pocossin, seem to imply about the new or most recent location of the cds---I hope that you will expound on your interpretation, which I believe has merit, and explains specifically how you draw your information from #22 and #11).

Peter2610 also brought up this issue of Gen's obstruction attribute, yet he apparently is applying it to mean the idea or notion that is inherent in my question to the oracle. Peter, I very much like your ideas, on #22 and #16, but one question that I have is; how do you reconcile your interpretation of #22 with the statement in the Decision that the situation is "slightly favorable"? Scholar Henry Wei states that Gen/Mountain obstructs the forward movement of Li/Fire, thereby resulting in small or limited success.

Hello to sooo as well. You are right that my main concern is the effectiveness of the various methods. Given this, I would be open to your proposed interpretation of #22, but have at least some difficulty with it because my real doubts of the effectiveness of the marble method, etc. only surfaced strongly AFTER this reading involving #22 and #11. True, I did have some concerns prior to that, but by the time of this reading, I felt that I had overcome them. However, the oracle's answer jarred me and the doubts resurfaced. Your ideas on #22 are good ones however, and your statement that you find a virtual marble method effective is reassuring.

Believe it or not, my brother just walked in with the cds in question, after having finally located them somewhere else in the house! They were found in a shoebox with some other items (though I have no idea how or when they got there), and now I see it as possible that line 2(the "beard") was representing the cds, and that line 3 or the "face" was representing the shoebox, and that the cds were, in a sense, "adorning" the box and being moved with it whenever the filled box had been taken into another room. I'm not sure, but this interpretation seems likely. Also, I hadn't mentioned it, but I had performed another reading a few days earlier (with the marble method), asking if the cds were behind a particular book case. I received #48 and #8. #48, line 2, seemed to be fairly clearly stating that they were in a different area/direction from the place in question. But, the main point I wish to make here is that #8 seemed to show that wherever they were, they were all together, and it turns out that they were (this might not seem particularly noteworthy or remarkable, but I happen to have cds in multiple locations in my room).

Thanks again to all of you. It has helped me in several ways. I hope that you will respond to the specific questions which I put to each of you in this (my second) posting.

Dan H

 

[sooo]

Hello to sooo as well. You are right that my main concern is the effectiveness of the various methods. Given this, I would be open to your proposed interpretation of #22, but have at least some difficulty with it because my real doubts of the effectiveness of the marble method, etc. only surfaced strongly AFTER this reading involving #22 and #11. True, I did have some concerns prior to that, but by the time of this reading, I felt that I had overcome them. However, the oracle's answer jarred me and the doubts resurfaced. Your ideas on #22 are good ones however, and your statement that you find a virtual marble method effective is reassuring.

Hey, Dan.

I felt certain that this question would arise in your mind. I hope that my response doesn't seem too rationalized, but it's not unusual for the Yi to be a step ahead of a question. So I'm saying, even though your 22 reading came after, your doubt remained afterward, and was your predominate question ----

I have been using the 16-marble method for many weeks now, and have been increasingly concerned about its effectiveness. Because of this, I did a reading using the computer casting program on this website, asking if the marble method was an effective method.

--- and 16 was a precursor to your primary concern and question, or at least that's how I interpreted it. 16 implied that there was still something mysterious and unresolved shaking around in your mind about it. 16 marbles - hex 16; I do not think the Yi was finished with you or your primary question yet.

In my experience, Yi's answers do not always present a direct corollary to our specific question, in a linear fashion, but is much more 'inside our head' and fluid regarding our bigger picture and broader concern.

Congrat's on locating your CD's. They came to you in a 16-like manner, it seems.

Thanks for your thoughtful responses. It's appreciated.

Bruce

 

[pocossin]

I hope that you will expound on your interpretation, which I believe has merit, and explains specifically how you draw your information from #22 and #11.

I reasoned: 22 = good order. Line 2 is the line of movement and line 6 limitation. (I did not consider that they could be in a box.) 11 implies a good outcome. Thus, the cds were safe.

 

[DanielH]

Thanks Bruce and Pocossin for the follow up responses. They definitely helped to clarify your respective ideas and interpretations of my readings. With everyone's input, I now feel better about not only the two readings being analyzed, but more confident of the effectiveness of the two casting methods which they involved.

Dan H