attitudes to oracles

[dobro p]

How many attitudes to oracles can you think of, based on the stuff that gets posted here? I can see three big ones:

1 What's a good way to handle this situation? (this is action-based; the person's looking for a way forward)

2 What do I need to know about this situation? (this is knowledge-based; the person assumes that if they know the lay of the land that they'll be able to work out a way forward themself)

3 What's the other person thinking and feeling? (the querent is using the oracle as a kind of crystal ball to get access to information not ordinarily available to them)

 

[Trojina]

3 What's the other person thinking and feeling? (the querent is using the oracle as a kind of crystal ball to get access to information not ordinarily available to them)[/QUOTE]

Actually isn't that always the case whenever we use an oracle, not just when asking about what others feel.



Re your question another way of using the oracle is simply to ask for outcomes, "what will happen" ie "will i get my parcel ?" or how things actually are right now, ie like 'my parcels late at what stage of transit is it ? " and so on.

And of course "what if take course a ?"" v "what if I take course b ?" in other words to make a choice between options.


Not sure i get your question ? Its titled 'attitudes to the oracle' but you are really asking what kinds of questions people put to it. Are you meaning the kind of question a person asks reflects their attitude to the oracle ? I think most people who consult Yi regularly ask all these kinds of questions

 

[dobro p]

3 What's the other person thinking and feeling? (the querent is using the oracle as a kind of crystal ball to get access to information not ordinarily available to them)[/QUOTE]

Actually isn't that always the case whenever we use an oracle, not just when asking about what others feel.

Yes. I'll reword it, then. 'The querent is using the oracle as a kind of crystal ball to get personal or private information about other people.' And I would like to add: 'which they have no business knowing about.'

Re your question another way of using the oracle is simply to ask for outcomes, "what will happen" ie "will i get my parcel ?" or how things actually are right now, ie like 'my parcels late at what stage of transit is it ? " and so on.

Yes, and with this one you've indentified another of the major uses of the Yi to some people: as a predictor of events, as a fortunetelling device.

Not sure i get your question ? Its titled 'attitudes to the oracle' but you are really asking what kinds of questions people put to it. Are you meaning the kind of question a person asks reflects their attitude to the oracle ? I think most people who consult Yi regularly ask all these kinds of questions

The direction of my enquiry combines both the things you're wondering about. I want to look at the major ways in which people employ the Yi, in order to identify the major attitudes to the Yi (how do people view the Yi, what do they assume its nature is, what do they assume its function is?), and in order to identify if possible the attitudes people have towards themselves and life. See, it's my view that people who use it as a snooping device or as a fortuneteller are using it at a very low level indeed, and that this reflects something very profound and telling about what sort of person they are. It's my view that people who use it to find out, in the present, how best to handle a situation are using it at a much more sophisticated level, and that this also says something very significant about what sort of person *they* are. And there's a higher level as well, I think, where the querent uses the Yi as an instrument, not so much to know what to DO in a situation, but in order to know how best to SURRENDER to what's unfolding.

 

[mudpie]

well,i've used it all those ways, so what *sort of person* am I?

it is helpful to know , e.g., if a person distrusts you ( yi as snooping device)...then you can take steps to put them at ease. Likewise, it is helpful to know if someone is untrustworthy.

it is helpful to know, e.g. that I dont have to worry about my package coming too late for the wedding (yi as fortune telling device)

it is also helpful to know how best to behave in a particular job interview (yi sophisticate)

and it is also helpful to know that you shouldn't buy the mercedes right now because it is a time to tighten your belt (*surrender, Dorothy* approach)

It all depends on your needs at the time of questioning.

and by the way, those ways/attitudes can overlap.

isnt 'surrendering to whats unfolding' actually using the Yi as a fortune teller anyway?

 

[rosada]

I just asked,

How can I best surrender to what's unfolding?

I received 58.1 > 47

58.
THE JOYOUS. Success.
Perseverance is favorable.

Thus the superior man joins with his friends for discussion and practice.

Contented joyousness. Good fortune.

47.
OPPRESSION. Success. Perseverance.
The great man brings about good fortune.
No blame.
When one has something to say it is not believed.

The superior man stakes his life
On following his will.

Comments?

 

[dobro p]

isnt 'surrendering to whats unfolding' actually using the Yi as a fortune teller anyway?

Nope. Surrendering to what's unfolding is being in the present, alive and aware. Fortunetelling is future-proofing, and a sure sign the ego's involved.

 

[dobro p]

I just asked,

How can I best surrender to what's unfolding?

I received 58.1

It looks like the Yi's saying that for you, bringing forth what's in you harmoniously is the best way of surrender. I think that's really interesting, cuz surrender is letting things be, allowing them, accepting them. The Yi seems to be saying to accept what in you wants to be expressed.

 

[rosada]

Yeah, me too. I see this as refering to my recent enthusiasm to try to decipher every possible permutation of Ch'ien over on the Memorizing thread. I'm having a grand time posting my ideas but I'm feeling a little sheepish too, as I don't have the kind of training the more knowledgable folks here have, and thus have felt a bit anxious that any moment I might come to the site and read some poster telling me they don't believe a word I'm saying. So I see 58.1 as saying It's okay to post away, but, 47, don't require anyone to believe you and you wont create Opposition!

 

[Trojina]

Nope. Surrendering to what's unfolding is being in the present, alive and aware. Fortunetelling is future-proofing, and a sure sign the ego's involved.

Its like you are trying to create a heirarchy of Yi users ? I think people get far off base when they start talking of the ego as something bad for us to be involved with - listen if there was no ego you wouldn't know you were Dobro - and asking for future indications really isn't always a sign of ego at all - just practicality about how much energy to expend in certain situations. If i know the parcels is on its way i won't waste time with complaints and phonecalls and so on to take a mundane example,

Theres no point making a pretence of 'surrender' when one is not in a state of consciousness that is 100% in harmony with the flow of the cosmos and you can't hurry or force being in that state or work out how to get there either - so meanwhile an oracle is a useful help to handle the changes in life - that is what its there for, oh and meanwhile you may learn alot too, but theres nothing 'superior' about 'spiritual questions, infact most often they seemed the most heavily ego laden questions of all being self conscious about ones place on 'the path' and all that.

 

[dobro p]

Its like you are trying to create a heirarchy of Yi users ?

I'm not trying to create anything. But I perceive different kinds of attitudes to using the Yi, and I'm suggesting that those attitudes go hand in hand with which part of your being you are in at the moment: when you're in your ego, you tend to ask one kind of question; when you're a step above your ego in the Observer, you tend to ask a completely different kind of question. That's what I see. Your mileage may vary.

I think people get far off base when they start talking of the ego as something bad for us to be involved with

I agree with you completely. In fact, not only is the ego not a bad thing, but it's impossible to be without an ego. It's always there. (But it doesn't have to be the only thing that's there, and it certainly shouldn't be the boss.)

- listen if there was no ego you wouldn't know you were Dobro -

That's one of the dumbest things you've ever said lol. What makes you think 'knowing I'm dobro' is so great? It's not. But when I get above/beyond the ego and stop being dobro and start being the consciousness that informs my real being, that's a much better place to be. But dobro? dobro tends to be a nincompoop. Perhaps you've noticed? lol

but theres nothing 'superior' about 'spiritual questions, infact most often they seemed the most heavily ego laden questions of all being self conscious about ones place on 'the path' and all that.

If spiritual questions seem to you to be heavily laden with ego, that says nothing more than you perceive spirituality to be laden with pretence. That's your perception perhaps, but it's not mine. Perhaps you've been in touch with a lot of hypocrites in your time and that's why you think that, I don't know. I've met a lot of phonies too, but I've also met some very sincere people, and I can often tell the difference. Some of those sincere people are interested in finding what the literature calls 'higher mind' or 'higher self' or 'atman' or 'real self' or whatever you want to call it. That's real, and I admire it.

But rather than get into a debate with you about it, I'd rather that you helped me out with this: can you think of or identify any other major attitudes or approaches or 'employments' of the Yi by people on this board that we haven't thought of?

 

[Trojina]

Asking for causes, reasons why things are as they are in your life. For example if you repeatedly find yourself in the same situation over and over you try to get at what is really happening. I guess that is using the Yi for self examination, insight into ones own priorities and motivations. Asking that kind of question can be quite exhausting i find. To ask that kind of question I find i have to be in a kind of more intense frame of mind, somehow put more into the question because just inwardly articulating the question is hard work in itself - or to hold the question and its meaning is harder than asking more immediate and mundane questions - also of course the answer will be less throwaway, it could apply to how you've lived your life till now and give you some inkling of how you might change that if you want to. Yeah so that comes under using the Yi for self reflection, as a tool for change

Hmm other kinds of questions may be more involved with timing - 'is this the right time' or 'when is the best time ?' the mathematical methods for finding best dates and so on.

Oh and of course theres Chris Loftings IDM approach to the oracle whatever you think of it -its another approach to forming questions

Do I get my t shirt now ?

 

[dobro p]

Color and address, please.

 

[dobro p]

Asking for causes, reasons why things are as they are in your life. For example if you repeatedly find yourself in the same situation over and over you try to get at what is really happening. I guess that is using the Yi for self examination, insight into ones own priorities and motivations. Asking that kind of question can be quite exhausting i find. To ask that kind of question I find i have to be in a kind of more intense frame of mind, somehow put more into the question because just inwardly articulating the question is hard work in itself - or to hold the question and its meaning is harder than asking more immediate and mundane questions - also of course the answer will be less throwaway, it could apply to how you've lived your life till now and give you some inkling of how you might change that if you want to. Yeah so that comes under using the Yi for self reflection, as a tool for change

Hmm other kinds of questions may be more involved with timing - 'is this the right time' or 'when is the best time ?' the mathematical methods for finding best dates and so on.

Oh and of course theres Chris Loftings IDM approach to the oracle whatever you think of it -its another approach to forming questions

Also, look at this thread you're part of in the other forum:

http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?t=4951

I'd say that person was asking about how to manipulate another person's mind.

 

[charly]

... Do I get my t shirt now ?

You get it.

Yours,

Charly

 

[Trojina]

Hey Charly that is an apron, I want a t-shirt ! What does the writing say anyway ? Mind you i don't know if the tshirt has Dobros head on it or a selection of his wise quotes throughout the last year - probably has the hexagram one signature on it I guess.

 

[Sparhawk]

Hey Charly that is an apron,

That's right. Get busy!!

 

[Trojina]

hey I am waiting for you to bring out your xmas calender Luis - with you in a different pose holding a different Yi book (to cover vital parts) each month - it would attract many more people to Clarity you know !

 

[Sparhawk]

hey I am waiting for you to bring out your xmas calender Luis - with you in a different pose holding a different Yi book (to cover vital parts) each month - it would attract many more people to Clarity you know !

You mean my head? My heart? Perhaps the liver area? Two books covering my kidneys?

Hmmm, a calendar is a good idea. Perhaps we should gather all of us, "Hunks of Clarity" and make a 2008 Calendar. That'll boost Clarity's Google ranking!!

 

[Trojina]

 

[dobro p]

You mean my head? My heart? Perhaps the liver area? Two books covering my kidneys?

Hmmm, a calendar is a good idea. Perhaps we should gather all of us, "Hunks of Clarity" and make a 2008 Calendar. That'll boost Clarity's Google ranking!!

Like firemen, you mean? "The Men of Clarity". Okay. I'll be any month but November. And I'm not wearing the apron.

 

[magictortoise]

What's a good way to handle this situation? (this is action-based; the person's looking for a way forward)

I much agree.

I think if you ask a question implying right action you don't need to know what the other is feeling and you don't need to ask what you need to know about a situation. Tao takes all that into account in the reply to the action question. That is why I have always found questions like 'what does he think of me', 'what are his feelings' etc. to be superfluous. All one need ask is given my relationship (if it is a relationship question) with X what ought I to be doing about it? If I embody the reply properly then feelings, knowledge, hopes/dreams/fears will all assume their proper place.

Same for situations. I think it far better to ask: In the given situation what ought I to be doing about it. It cuts to the point much better than something like 'what knowledge do I need of this situation'?

I also think a lot of problems would be solved by asking about timeliness. Instead of "Should I ask her out on a date' why not ask "Is it the right time to ask so-and-so out on a date". I recall the counsel on hexagram 41 in the back of Wilhelm: All that matters is that things happen at the right time.

Lastly, questions regarding ones relation to oneself are ideal. Also questions about the meaning for ones passage of certain events, situations. Perhaps there is a lesson for ones passage that a certain event or person has to offer.

Ken

 

[dobro p]

Ken -

Let's say for the moment that out of the main human capacities of thought, emotion, and action, each person has a favorite that they use more than the others. Men are often more in their heads or bodies than women, who are often more in their emotions than men. I'm grossly overgeneralizing, but there's some truth in it. But it doesn't matter, even if there's a man who lives in his emotions and makes his decisions with his feelings, or woman who reasons her way through things - the point is that just about everybody favors one mode over the others when making important decisions and dealing with life's opportunities and challenges.

Okay, so maybe it's to be expected that there will be at least three kinds of questions depending on those basic personality types. An intellectual type will ask: "What do I need to know about...?" because he assumes that knowing about something is the key to dealing with it. A practical, action-based personality will tend to want to know what to do: "How should I deal with...?" And an emotion-based person will want the Yi to comment on the emotional dimension of the situation because they automatically assume that emotions are key. A person like that is already uncomfortably aware about how they feel themself, so they ask questions like: "What does he feel for me really?"

To a person like me (intellectual) the question that asks about how other people feel is shallow, unskillful, and nosey. See what I mean? Different personality types not only ask different types of questions, but they tend not to esteem the sort of questions people of a different personality type asks.

But here's something: I'm a head type, a person who tries to think his way through situations. And yet when I ask the Yi questions, I often ask: "What do I need to do...?" because I've come to recognise that I need to learn how to act on things, put things into motion. So it's possible to recognise the sort of person you are and ask the Yi to help you with the less-developed aspects of your being.

And yet despite the fact that our personality pushes us toward one particular type of question, I think like you do that questions about self and self-development are golden.

 

[Trojina]

What you missed out is if you check the friends area often the people who always ask these kind of questions don't want to have to think about it for themselves neither do they want to feel for themselves either. Their sole aim is to block off feeling and thought by consulting the Yi, then asking for quick quick feedback which they hope will tell them what they want to hear - if it doesn't meet their needs they quickly start a new thread on the same topic with a slightly differently worded question - and with a whole new batch of answers - till people catch on


My point is I don't think type of question asked is much to do with personality type for the simple reason as has already been pointed out everyone asks all kinds of questions. What I have referred to above is due to something else entirely, not personality exactly. If we go back to the title of the thread 'attitudes to the oracle' well i think to alot of people its like their attitude to Macdonalds - they want to feed their craving (to their love addiction) and they want it fast and easy - and they want it served up in plastic packaging - soon they'll be wanting a free toy too, lol.

Oh also its worth bearing in mind that i doubt what you see here on the forum really reflects peoples attitude to the Yi. Many who consult the Yi don't post here and many who never used it before, or used it just once or twice do post often about how x feels about y etc.

 

[Sparhawk]

What you missed out is if you check the friends area often the people who always ask these kind of questions don't want to have to think about it for themselves neither do they want to feel for themselves either. Their sole aim is to block off feeling and thought by consulting the Yi, then asking for quick quick feedback which they hope will tell them what they want to hear - if it doesn't meet their needs they quickly start a new thread on the same topic with a slightly differently worded question - and with a whole new batch of answers - till people catch on

Finnally! Knowledge is spreading... For me is hard not to be cynical about the whole Shared Readings section, but, I'll hurt feelings from afar.

 

[dobro p]

Finnally! Knowledge is spreading... For me is hard not to be cynical about the whole Shared Readings section, but, I'll hurt feelings from afar.

I see that forum as a possible training ground, for both me and the people who ask questions there. The superficiality there that Trojan describes astounds me, but there are legitimate questions that get asked by people who are sincere enough to appreciate the answers sometimes. In either case, if you sincerely answer people's questions there, you take on a role which parallels that of the Yi itself, you serve it. I think that's a good attitude to take.

Trojan - I do think there are patterns in the type of questions that get asked, though, and this thread is helping me see them. Maybe, instead of calling this thread 'attitudes to the oracle' I should have called 'how different people view the Yi'. Some people see it as a crystal ball for snooping, some see it as a crystal ball for seeing the future, some see it as a crystal ball for seeing the present, some see it as a crystal ball for seeing themselves. And some see it as a mirror. Everybody wants to use the Yi in order to enhance clarity, but clarity of what sort?

Yet perhaps one of the dangers of a longtime user is that it can become a comfort, and not have much to do with clarity, harmony, or change at all. Maybe I've found another way to view the oracle.

 

[hilary]

Mm. If you're consulting every day, or every week, without a question, just an implied 'what to pay attention to?' - what attitude does that represent? Maybe a 'crystal ball for seeing the present'? (I like the sound of that one.)

 

[Sparhawk]

I see that forum as a possible training ground, for both me and the people who ask questions there. The superficiality there that Trojan describes astounds me, but there are legitimate questions that get asked by people who are sincere enough to appreciate the answers sometimes. In either case, if you sincerely answer people's questions there, you take on a role which parallels that of the Yi itself, you serve it. I think that's a good attitude to take.

Well, I don't think sincerity is lacking as all the questions seem to be of great importance to somebody. I agree that it can be a good training ground for aspiring diviners, those that help with interpretations. I don't know. I discovered the Yi in an unlikely corner of the world, in a time when computers occupied big air-conditioned rooms and were self contained. The Internet was just starting as a DARPA project and at least 25 years before Al Gore claimed to have invented it and to have given it to the masses. Nobody I knew had a clue what the I Ching was, including myself... Heck, even today, in the great bastion of culture that is the USofA (insert tongue-in-cheek smilie here), the other day my next door neighbor saw me with a few books on my sofa, titled "I Ching something" and she thought I had some kind of rash and was looking for treatment information (true story!) If I didn't live through it myself I would have thought it was something plagiarized from an obscure "I Love Lucy" episode... However, I persevered and over the years I got some "clues"

Nowadays, people buy a book (those that spend some money in it and don't go directly to an online "Oracle" and draw an hexagram) and their next "logical" step is to find somebody to interpret the answer for them. How lazy is that? I know, I know... Some people need immediate answers, but, my view in those cases is that they should consult, privately, someone that can divine for them. Heck, our host here is one such person that can directly help with that and I don't think you must pawn your Grannie's wedding ring to pay for it.

For serious students, the Yi is a path of self-discovery. No one, outside yourself, is going to do the "self" portion of it for you...

Some people see it as a crystal ball for snooping, some see it as a crystal ball for seeing the future, some see it as a crystal ball for seeing the present, some see it as a crystal ball for seeing themselves. And some see it as a mirror. Everybody wants to use the Yi in order to enhance clarity, but clarity of what sort?

Ah, isn't that part of "self-discovering"? Not everything we find is pretty. I'm inclined to say "on the contrary." However, as Brad well pointed out the other day, the Yi is an "improvement" manual, among other things. Geeze, if I was the World's Emperor, the Yi would be taught in the schools, alongside with grammar and math, starting in kindergarden...

Yet perhaps one of the dangers of a longtime user is that it can become a comfort, and not have much to do with clarity, harmony, or change at all. Maybe I've found another way to view the oracle.

My friend, if such an exclusionary attitude is ever reached by a "longtime user," the onus is not on the Yi but on the person. On the other hand, "comfort" is not an exclusion for "clarity, harmony or change..."

 

[my_key]

and she thought I had some kind of rash and was looking for treatment information (true story!)

I have a half used tube of cream I could send you in a plain brown envelope

[/quote]Nowadays, people buy a book (those that spend some money in it and don't go directly to an online "Oracle" and draw an hexagram) and their next "logical" step is to find somebody to interpret the answer for them. How lazy is that? I know, I know... Some people need immediate answers, but, my view in those cases is that they should consult, privately, someone that can divine for them.
[/quote]

The modern day fast-food-fast-everything-want-it-now attitude is just one more step on our evolutionary path. For good or bad ?..... who can say. Maybe we don't need the time and intensity of the Yarrow stalks. The hands on coins / marbles and book method for me is the ultimate learning method. Consulting 6 or 8 book translations and then going on line to find as many more as I could until I went into mental meltdown was a worthwhile experience in trusting your intuition.

It's like when you go shoe shopping with your wife you visit hundreds of shops looking at countless styles and colours and you end up going back to the first shop and the first pair that she tried on. And who say's women's intuition is more developed than man's.

Geeze, if I was the World's Emperor, the Yi would be taught in the schools, alongside with grammar and math, starting in kindergarden...

You've got my vote.

As a self development tool the Yi is there at the top of the tree. The wood of modern day living may be disguising this very important tree.People may need a step ladder and a helping hand from experience diviners in the early days. I'm sure this feelin of "not getting it" is enough to turn some people away. C'est la vie !!
But as time goes on, provided there is a commitment one can move to the conciously competent stage and bring about their own development. Clarity Shared Readings is a great forum for moving from the level of unconciously incompetent and up through. Dobro is spot on here.
When you become unconciuosly competent, like riding a bike, I'm sure familiarity breeding contempt steps into play. Compacancy is definitely a danger - something has become rotten and from this is an opporunity for re-birth. Isn't this just a natural cycle of things?.

Love and hugs

mike

 

[Sparhawk]

The modern day fast-food-fast-everything-want-it-now attitude is just one more step on our evolutionary path. For good or bad ?..... who can say. Maybe we don't need the time and intensity of the Yarrow stalks. The hands on coins / marbles and book method for me is the ultimate learning method. Consulting 6 or 8 book translations and then going on line to find as many more as I could until I went into mental meltdown was a worthwhile experience in trusting your intuition.

Boy, I'm getting hopelessly old... What's next for me?? Vote Republican??

It's like when you go shoe shopping with your wife you visit hundreds of shops looking at countless styles and colours and you end up going back to the first shop and the first pair that she tried on. And who say's women's intuition is more developed than man's.

You mean something like this:

You've got my vote.

Thank you. Now I need donations for my campaign!! I have a PayPal account... (hint, hint...)

 

[dobro p]

It's like when you go shoe shopping with your wife you visit hundreds of shops looking at countless styles and colours and you end up going back to the first shop and the first pair that she tried on. And who say's women's intuition is more developed than man's.

Women's intuition often *is* more developed than men's, as long as the ego and a mirror aren't involved. Bring the ego and a mirror into the picture, and intuition is banished from the room. When the ego's quiet and the mirror's in the other room, intuition can kick in.

By the way, I'm going shopping with my wife this afternoon. The plan is this: I drive her to the shopping area and arrange to meet her two hours later at the rendezvous point. I say my approach is wisdom in action. Your mileage may vary.