avoiding obstruction (12)

[einhorn]

Question: "how do i maximize my chances of getting X?"

60.1.2.4.6 > 12

aside from the 4 changing lines (confusing), does this mean that even my best bet course of action (60) will still meet failure (12)?

OR

does it mean doing 60 will end in failure, BUT another course of action may have another outcome? so its actually a warning NOT to do 60?

 

[gato]

how do i maximize my chances of getting X?

let it go

 

[maremaria]

Einhorn, why you interpret 12 as failure ?

I think 12 is your present situation and 60 and its lines is the answer to your "how Q"

 

[gato]

Maremaria, but why do you interpret 12 as success ?

 

[maremaria]

Maremaria, but why do you interpret 12 as success ?

I didn't say 12 is success.

The question was "how do i maximize" and i can see at 60 how to do that . I usually see my question , my worries, what i want to achive in the relating hex, so given that, i see 12 as a description of "now" , einhorn and X thing apart.

This is the way i read it, but that doesn't mean its the right one . To me usually works.

 

[einhorn]

Einhorn, why you interpret 12 as failure ?

one of the descriptions i read of it was like "accept obstruction" as opposed to plowing through it or confronting it.

I think 12 is your present situation and 60 and its lines is the answer to your "how Q"

You sure that's not backward? 60 was the first hex, 12 was the second.

im still not sure if i believe:

first hex = present and second hex = future (ritsema and karcher)

or

if first hex = specific and second hex = general (other people).

 

[ginnie]

Language problem, because Maremaria did not say that H12 is success. Rather she said it indicates the present situation -- the mindset of miscommunication -- the stagnant interpersonal environment -- in which the question was asked.

And in getting H60.6 especially, this points to a situation of painful restraint, such that it would bring misfortune to continue.

 

[gato]

one of the descriptions i read of it was like "accept obstruction" as opposed to plowing through it or confronting it.



You sure that's not backward? 60 was the first hex, 12 was the second.

im still not sure if i believe:

first hex = present and second hex = future (ritsema and karcher)

or

if first hex = specific and second hex = general (other people).

it depends . sometimes is a vector describing a direction in which things will evolve, sometimes is a background describing the current situation and sometimes is the future itself.

 

[lucia]

There are plent of threads on this site that talk about the relation between primary and second hexes - there was one recently where Hilary talked about the second hex being the sea that the first hex swims in. I am not being funny but I do wish people would actually use some of the very fine resources on this site.

Lucia

 

[einhorn]

it depends . sometimes is a vector describing a direction in which things will evolve, sometimes is a background describing the current situation and sometimes is the future itself.

how do you know which it is?

re: 60.6, whats the deal with 4 moving lines? read them all in order? read the lines that didnt change on the future hex?

 

[einhorn]

And in getting H60.6 especially, this points to a situation of painful restraint, such that it would bring misfortune to continue.

so 60.6 leads to 12, so "do something else"?

 

[lucia]

http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?t=10108

L

 

[Sparhawk]

how do you know which it is?

re: 60.6, whats the deal with 4 moving lines? read them all in order? read the lines that didnt change on the future hex?

Many here shun Zhu Xi's method for interpreting changing lines. I don't. If interested, go here and scroll down to "How to interpret changing lines":

4 change

go over to the second hexagram and take the lowermost of the two lines that have not changed from the first hexagram​

In this case, your answer lies somewhere in 12.3... Which is insightful, to say the least.

 

[Trojina]

Question: "how do i maximize my chances of getting X?"

60.1.2.4.6 > 12

aside from the 4 changing lines (confusing), does this mean that even my best bet course of action (60) will still meet failure (12)?

OR

does it mean doing 60 will end in failure, BUT another course of action may have another outcome? so its actually a warning NOT to do 60?

Re another post here of yours I doubt somehow that Karcher would have said that the second hexagram is the future and nothing else !!

Re your question with so many moving lines just look at the sentence the 2 hexagrams make together standstill and measuring/limitation., to get an overview You are asking from a place from the context of 12 where not alot is happening re X and doesn't look like it will either and within that you are trying to create alot of measures and conditions (60) to something that already stopped. To me this presents as you doing this though its quite a complex reading and there must be many ways to see it...it really seems to be the very opposite of anything moving and free flowing


You can't lay down the conditions you propose here, you are trying to make orders when its not the time to be making conditions and orders.

12 shows one having no influence, it is useless to put ones best self into something for the time simply doesn't favour that...I'd see acceptance of that condition as the way forward rather than making rules (60) about how you think things ought to be working.

 

[maremaria]

You sure that's not backward? ).

Sorry, but it was very late here and went to bed, but I think you got answers from the other people here.

A experencience i had with 12 was about something that I couldn't bear, it was too much for me and havingin mind to whether to stay there or disengage myself from that m I asked Yi I got 61> 12. First reading was "inner thruth says no" i, so initially I took it as " Go away".(12) But I didn't heard the "click" so i kept that reading for a while in my mind, until I find what was really was the blockage. Didn't left, no regreats about that, it worth it. But this is how 12 was in this specific situation. I had to disengage my self (12) but not from that situation but from that part of mine that created those blockages.

I don't know how important is for you that x-thing, but if it is, work it a bit in your mind. The reason I asked you about 12 as failure was that for me 12 isn't alaways as bad as it looks.

Good luck

 

[einhorn]

Re another post here of yours I doubt somehow that Karcher would have said that the second hexagram is the future and nothing else !!

i'll give you a full quote later when i have access to the book. i dont think it said it the future "and nothing else" but it didnt mention anything other than the future.

maremaria: thanks. so the 12 may refer to my thoughts or mindset instead.

 

[meng]

More generally to the title of this thread, I don't see how it's possible to avoid 12, or any other hexagram. I think a whole person learns beneficial ways to move through the changes, and grasp what is really going on here from an objective viewpoint.

 

[lucia]

This is the quote from Steven Karcher that Hilary posted on the other thread. A thread you have particpated in and which I linked to above:

The second figure represents how you are 'related' to the basic figure. It can be a future development. It can also point to a past event that brought you here, a warning, a goal, a particular attitude or a deep desire - whatever is 'relating' you to the basic answer. It is the 'sea' or ground feeling in which the basic figure swims.

I think it is very useful. Try thinking of your 12 in this sense and see what you come up with.

L

 

[Trojina]

i'll give you a full quote later when i have access to the book. i dont think it said it the future "and nothing else" but it didnt mention anything other than the future.

.

Heh see Lucias quote from Karcher above. He was the one who originally spoke of the second hex being the sea the primary swims in

 

[bradford]

"Obstruction" is a terrible translation of this Hexagram's name and as long as you use it you will be misled as to the Hexagram's meaning. The translators who use it don't understand the text. The forces involved are not opposing or blocking each other - that's Hex 39. They are moving away from each other.

 

[einhorn]

Heh see Lucias quote from Karcher above. He was the one who originally spoke of the second hex being the sea the primary swims in

whoa!

Guess you are right.

Here's what i was talking about:

"As the activated lines change into their opposites they generate a second hexagram, the Related Hexagram, which is an image of overall future potential."

and

"The Related Hexagram indicates the direction in which your situation may evolve if you choose to act in the way described."

And later:

"The Image of the Related Hexagram generated when the transforming lines change into their opposites gives an indication of how your situation may develop. This can be a goal, an image of desire, reassurance or warning. It is not an immutable future, but an indication of the potential contained in your present situation. Changing the way you act or perceive things can change this potential."

All of those are from pg 27, "I Ching: The Classic Chinese Oracle of Change - the First Complete Translation with Concordance" translated by Rudolph Ritsema and Stephen Karcher. ISBN 1-56619-945-X.

That was the first I Ching source i ever read and that's why i assumed the second hex was the future, specifically arising from following the actions described in the moving lines.

 

[Trojina]

well yes I can see why you thought he was saying the second hex showed the future....but later he expanded on that a bit more....to his oceanic view

 

[ginnie]

Karcher has written a lot on the meaning of the relating hexagram, which is all to the good, because it needed and still needs to be clarified.

In the past, people seemed to always assume the relating hexagram represented potential for the future. But as you can see from your own castings, that often does not make sense.

The second hexagram can be understood to mostly indicate the way you, the querant, are related to your question.

So, it can even represent the past out of which your question arose.

Sometimes, given the nature of the I Ching, the relating hex can represent both the past and the future. And sometimes the second hex has no connection to Time at all. I don't think Time for the I Ching is the same as it is for us.

Most of the time, for me, the second hex seems to indicate my desire or goal in asking my question, but that is not true 100% of the time, so I would try to stay away from a time limitation on the relating hexagram.

 

[ginnie]

"Obstruction" is a terrible translation ...The forces involved are not opposing or blocking each other - that's Hex 39. They are moving away from each other.

Thank you, Bradford. This one sentence is so helpful . . . Maybe no sense running after what is departing at an even faster rate . . .

 

[willowfox]

Question: "how do i maximize my chances of getting X?"

60.1.2.4.6 > 12

You cannot maximize your chances for the moment as there are many "things" going against such an attempt, so stay still and back of any extrovert action.