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Tohpol

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I had a simple idea for a question which some of you may have already asked. But I thought it personified what the Yi was really all about and I thought it might be a valuable thread to open up and allow us to explore who we are. It's pretty personal so I understand if some would rather not participate.

The question is this:

Can you give me the two most important hexes that best encapsulate what I need to learn in this particular life?

Pretty important question I'd say and can lead on to all kinds of other follow up questions.

Result: 13.6 > 49 and 46.6 > 18

As a very brief summary, I got from this that I need to learn how to work with others - especially in teams - and not to give up my individuality, while at the same time learning not to change others to my way of thinking. Cultivating mutual interest but not necessarily on deeper issues and being happy with that. Always had a problem with finding a balance between team work and independence. Learning all that could lead to fundamental change in perception. And secondly, to continue advancing in life often without a compass, getting used to the unknown and to cultivate endurance,vigilance and trust in my own ability to navigate through the inevitable obstacles. Bit of a karmic feel to it. The seedling pushing up from the darkness etc. This is intimately connected to past issues, social conditioning, parental influence etc.

Anyone else want to play?

Topal
 

auriel

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Good Question- i'll say first how your oracles struck me;
13.6 that the true guide one needs needs to be sought out and in nature and true community
46.6 that life force is strong and will develope as it will even without guidance; so the need for guidance is prime

myself i threw
48.1>5 which i took to mean that waiting for questions& emotions to become clear without becoming stagnant was an issue i need to handle better
14.1.4>18 again, awareness of fragile boundaries; i.e. does a hermit show restraint in withdrawl? how involved should a teacher become?
 

Tohpol

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Good Question- i'll say first how your oracles struck me;
13.6 that the true guide one needs needs to be sought out and in nature and true community
46.6 that life force is strong and will develope as it will even without guidance; so the need for guidance is prime

myself i threw
48.1>5 which i took to mean that waiting for questions& emotions to become clear without becoming stagnant was an issue i need to handle better
14.1.4>18 again, awareness of fragile boundaries; i.e. does a hermit show restraint in withdrawl? how involved should a teacher become?

Hey Auriel,

Hmmm, interesting take you have there. Very accurate points from past patterns of readings...I'll think on that.

I can't add anything more to your own observations. Though the idea of active and passive hermitude and /or "being in the world but not claimed by it" is a thing I've battled with. If you are teacher - whatever kind of teacher - then I personally think being very involved is important .....but then I'm biased. :)

Topal
 

hilary

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48.1.5 leads to 11 - the well's flowing, the well's creative momentum... which all depends on how well the channels are kept open. I imagine the 'lesson' could be about maintaining a state of constant, active connection to source.

Deep breath...
What am I here to learn?
10.1.4.6 to 29. Treading after tigers and learning the dangers through repetition. A large part of me would rather avoid anything so intense, and go graze with some nice placid herbivores instead. But the lines say tiger-treading is something I can learn: simply, and by being properly respectful when I get close, and by observing the footprints of ancestors.

(I'm not going to ask again. This feels like plenty to be going on with.)

Wonderful question idea, thank you.
 
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meng

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I think your take on this is good, Topal.

There's a time in life for the "us vs them" or "me vs them" mindset, but if it's persisted in, it leads to unhappiness. And I think part of Yi's premise is that we have an obligation to cultivate our happiness, and hopefully contribute to the happiness and welfare of others.

Was it Abby Hoffman who commandeered the stage at Woodstock? His cause may have been true, but his timing sucked, and the crowd would have none of it. He went over the top in his zeal, i.e. 46.6.

Total contrast to 13.6, where your influential power may not be as dramatic, but can still assist the revolution or transformation. Note that the fan yao of 13.6 is 49.6: The noble one changes like a leopard, small men shed the skin of the face. To set things right: pitfall. Settling-down determination: auspicious.
 

rosada

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You're wanting us to ask what we are supposed to learn in this LIFETIME??? And to study not just one hexagram but two??? Why stop there? Why not ask what we're learning in the next 20 lifetimes and throw in the whole damn book?
Jeez, Topal, I'm just trying to figure out today. I think 13.6 > 49 is telling you we all think you're a nice guy but you're on your own on this one.

R.
 

Trojina

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Pretty important question I'd say and can lead on to all kinds of other follow up questions.

Result: 13.6 > 49 and 46.6 > 18

As a very brief summary, I got from this that I need to learn how to work with others - especially in teams - and not to give up my individuality, while at the same time learning not to change others to my way of thinking. Cultivating mutual interest but not necessarily on deeper issues and being happy with that. Always had a problem with finding a balance between team work and independence. Learning all that could lead to fundamental change in perception. And secondly, to continue advancing in life often without a compass, getting used to the unknown and to cultivate endurance,vigilance and trust in my own ability to navigate through the inevitable obstacles. Bit of a karmic feel to it. The seedling pushing up from the darkness etc. This is intimately connected to past issues, social conditioning, parental influence etc.

Anyone else want to play?

Topal

46.6 is a fuuny one. Seems to be 2 schools of thought as i recall bringing it up before. One school says you go too far with something, the other sees it as an encouragement to keep going even if you can't see where something leads. The sprout doesn't know when or how it will hit the the open light but it has to keep on and not lose heart - not
that a sprout can lose heart :D I go with the second - I feel the compass is set or your direction is pretty much well grooved/predestined (these are not the right words but...) but you aren't in a position to see that now so like the sprout under the earth you have to keep going where your instinct leads and trust this impulse will take you where you need to go.

If you feel discouraged sometimes i think this line is a reassurance of a kind. Like you say trusting your ability to navigate through darkness.
 

hilary

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Oh, I don't know. Learning one reading per lifetime (or maybe less - could still be the same one next time around, of course) seems more manageable to me than most of the things we ask.

13.6 seems to me to be about a combination of devotion and spaciousness: a big enough cause and space that conflict is avoided. (49.6 - everyone is involved in the same revolution, but let them change according to their own capacity.)
 

rosada

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Okay, ONE reading per lifetime maybe. But Topal asked for two. Isn't that a little opportuning?

Hope everyone knows I'm just trying to have some fun here...

Actually, I see 13.6 > 49 as a good explanation of everyone's soul lesson this time around. 13.6 says we must eventually detach from everything and everyone we once held dear because 49. Everything Must Change.

If Everything must change is THE lesson for this lifetime then I see 46.6 > 18 as saying a second reading wont clarify this answer, indeed until we have understood this first lesson we cannot make sense of anything beyond it. We'd just be pushing into darkness (46.6) and stirring up a lot of confusion (18). Not that there is anything wrong with that...

46.6 > 18 may also be assuring us that when we do complete this lifetime, consciousness will continue and there will be no lack of stories to tell and problems to solve next time around.
 
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steve

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I'm still trapped with woodstock 46.6
That is something

Steve ,,got me there
 

ben_s

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58's a perfect destination for me

Interesting question, Topal, thanks for the topic.

I asked and got: 58, no moving lines.

I would love to have a life shared in contentment with good friends and allies, people of pure heart we can join for "discussion and practice." There are a few people like that in my life. Not nearly enough of them. The lake by itself is drying out.

I currently feel a long way from that #58 life. My partner and I are both struggling with major health issues, which have led to major financial issues. We live in the rare country that considers access to health care a luxury for those with wealth, or excellent jobs.

We're both too sick for regular jobs - therefore the focus on the consulting work we can do part-time. Currently a race between immediately having more sales for the business, or literally selling the furniture to pay for cancer treatment. Deciding which lifelong dreams have to be sacrificed on the altar of expedience. How to chop down the burning house to at least rescue the people inside. Priorities to eat the seed corn. That kind of thing.

At the same time, we are dealing with the aftermath of some extremely heavy-duty issues - issues that would take a lot of energy away from even a healthy and rich person. The issues we have to overcome include the effects in our lives of cult brainwashing, child abuse, deceit, betrayal, and abandonment. And then, the enabling of abuse through denial, minimizing, justifying, and blaming the victim, all on the part of those who should have promoted justice, who had every reason to stand up for all the values they said were important to them.

Turns out that these things we thought were all in our past are still hurting us now. Some good counselors are like a lifeboat for us now. Which is why I'm so surprised I was blamed for suggesting counseling for someone else in a difficult and confusing situation.

Perhaps this helps explain why a community of spiritual seekers is of great value to me at this time. This is why I am so keenly interested in seeing if there's a way Hilary can have a profitable business, one that lets her comfortably afford the time and money to maintain this forum.

I believe there's a need to give before expecting to receive. That's why I joined the discussion of others' issues before raising my own questions. It's also why I've not before hinted at the full scope of the challenges I face. I want to have a place where people who hurt can seek compassion and wisdom, so I try to do my part by only bringing up one or two of my questions at a time while I look for what I could do to share some water with the next lake...
 

Tohpol

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I think your take on this is good, Topal.

There's a time in life for the "us vs them" or "me vs them" mindset, but if it's persisted in, it leads to unhappiness. And I think part of Yi's premise is that we have an obligation to cultivate our happiness, and hopefully contribute to the happiness and welfare of others.


Hey Meng,

Gotcha with your other thoughts on this but on the above:

I think you're misunderstanding me a bit on this point. (or maybe I'm misunderstand you!:rolleyes: But I would hope my whole schtik has nothing to do with "Us Vs Them" or "me vs them" behaviour - that's just feeding into the same old tired divisions. But it has everything to do with giving Truth and justice at least a glimmer of hope. To see that play out even if entirely insignificant - that makes me happy. Because that means the possibility of less suffering. Giving the lies the required repsonse they ask for i.e. the truth in a given situation is a vital, natural and ultimately creative process at it's best. The heavy weight of matter pressing down on us the "seedlings" as we push up through the earth supplies the dynamic by which we come to know ourselves.

Even happiness /unhappiness is not part of the equation for me. If you see the imminent possibility of a child in the street being blown apart by a cluster bomb do you think about whether or not it's going to make you happy or unhappy if you can play a part in preventing such an incident? No. You just do it because you can.

But I take your general point that the Yi IS certainly offering this premise to cultivate happiness and I agree with it. It is something I DO need to cultivate. But context, choice comes into play.

Topal
 

Tohpol

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Interesting question, Topal, thanks for the topic.

I asked and got: 58, no moving lines.

I would love to have a life shared in contentment with good friends and allies, people of pure heart we can join for "discussion and practice." There are a few people like that in my life. Not nearly enough of them. The lake by itself is drying out.


I'd like to comment on your post Ben but I have to go out. I'll return to it and thanks for writing. I hope you can gain some strength from all the different folks here during your difficult times.

Take care,

Topal
 
M

maremaria

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Hi Topal,

My answers :
a) 1.5 to 14
b) 23.6 to 2

Seems that Yi says I’m kind of disconnected with self and thus I’m not utilize my assets.(1.5 to 14) And maybe that I have to learn be patient and accept the things as it is. Changes need time and come through necessary stages. (23.6 still troubles me. Not very satisfied with my interpretation)


Maria
 
M

maremaria

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Hi Ben,

I can relate with more than one issues you are facing at present and I think I can understand the “dry lake” you mentioned. Counselling is not bad for me. Actually I attend to such meetings in a group, so my point was not about your suggestion

Wish you all the best in your effort to find the 58-lakes you want
:)
Maria
 

hilary

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Hi Ben,

From here, it looks as though you are already mastering 58. I look out for your posts and enjoy them - and to be able to give joy through your communication when you're in mid-crisis is a rare thing. (The lucid advice is a bonus.)
I believe there's a need to give before expecting to receive.
Maybe... yet 58 looks to me like a perpetual circulation; I don't see a starting point there, or a way that giving could precede receiving or vice versa. In other words, please ask more of us.

Other things 58 does: trades and exchanges openly; receives the subtle messages from the inner nature of things (57) and brings them to expression; mediates; opens.

Maria, I seem to remember 23.6 coming up years ago and Meng writing wonderful things about it (though under a different name), so hopefully he will chime in on this. I think the great person who gets a cart has learned that when change is called for, it's good to shift completely - pack up and go into a completely new field.

Topal - very cool thread. Maybe some of us will turn out to have the same lessons, or complementary ones - and it seems to me that by posting our 'homework' we're all nominating one another as teachers.
 

Tohpol

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I believe there's a need to give before expecting to receive. That's why I joined the discussion of others' issues before raising my own questions. It's also why I've not before hinted at the full scope of the challenges I face. I want to have a place where people who hurt can seek compassion and wisdom, so I try to do my part by only bringing up one or two of my questions at a time while I look for what I could do to share some water with the next lake...


As Hilary mentions, I think you're a rare breed Ben. Your posts have the humility of someone who has suffered quite a bit it seems.

Just a few things that pop into my mind related to 58 - not sure if I'm in the ball park at all but FWIW...

58 - as a life hex - could also be about learning to love yourself as well as understanding the nature of complex relationships. That can sound a bit trite but there is a truth there, (as long as that self-love doesn't become malignant!)

I suppose finding out our true natures and being happy with ourselves (as Meng was saying) will naturally radiate out into the world from a strong resource.

58 to me, it is also about healing the wounds before we can do that. That's a long old process - or can be. From what you've said, there's probably still a lot of "stuff" that has escaped healing which can show up in the illnesses you mention. This very difficult period could be the process by which these demons are set free so that your 58 life can be brought forth. Keeping yourself afloat - especially emotionally - is one of the challenges so don't be afraid to ask for help here as Hilary says - ask more. Exchange - network.

It's also a Hex that illustrates the components of desire - the "wanting" at the expense of our higher nature and the dance of energy related to we know and meet in our respective "films." How do we process "desire" and "want"so that we are true to ourselves and thereby true to others? I think that's the greatest spiritual challenge. (One that's gonna need many lifetimes for me to master I think! lol)

I thought I'd include an interpretation of 58 from Michael Graeme's I Ching Notes. I like his take on things very much. So, here's 58:

(58)
The Joyous
Being satisfied.
The Lake

Regarding how through wanting something specific we lose faith in the correctness o f our path.

Keywords:
Joy, Delight, Happiness, Satisfaction, Bliss, Appreciation of life's simple pleasures, Zest for life, Desire, Wanting, Needing, Lure, Pull, Incentive, Instant gratification, Payoff, Seeking reward, Hedonism, Enchantment, Obsession.

We can only experience true joy when our direction has been guided by positive influences gently penetrating our psyche over a long period of time. Joy is like the surface of a lake that is perfectly still and reflective of all the glories of nature that surround it. Emotions then are like disturbances on the surface of the lake. When we allow emotions to dominate they act like capricious winds churning up the surface so the reflections are lost and all we see is the shimmering lake.

The joy suggested in this hexagram is not an emotion - it is a perfect reflection of the unknown, of the Creative, on the unruffled surface of our psyche. Only by touching the Creative in this way do we experience profound joy. Thus one here is counselled that true happiness can never be purchased, but only realised when there is a total absence of emotion. Such inner harmony is brought about by adopting an attitude of modesty and detachment from the material world.

If we can accept the principle of being led, if we can trust in the unknown, regardless o f the circumstances we find ourselves in, then we will achieve such a state of detachment and harmony. This is true joy. We have all experienced times such as these, but they are lost the moment our emotions reassert themselves. We experience the tiniest flicker of desire; we see something and we want it,
believing it will bring us happiness. But "want" is an emotion disturbing the calm surface of our psyche, so we lose the reflection of the Creative and thus any sense of the nature of true joy.

We let our ego reassert itself, we doubt in the innate ability of things to work themselves out. And in so doubting we become the centre of a subtle storm of emotion that destroys the placid surface o f our inner lake. We are aware of our selves only through our emotions as we are aware of the lake only by its shimmering surface. The reflection - the joy - is lost. When a lake is perfectly reflective we are aware of it only as a vessel for the images its reflects. Is it then the lake or the
reflection that is the true reality? Joy is an awareness of ourselves only as a vessel for the outpourings of the Creative. Is it then our selves, or that which shines through us that is the true reality?

In our dealings with people, our ability to pass on joy is a measure of how tranquil the surface of our lake is. If we are unhappy, if the surface of our psyche is churned up by a storm of emotion, others will sense this in us. They will see nothing
reflected that brings them joy. Thus we become more and more isolated until we can correct ourselves.

The essential counsel here is that we should reco gnise the workings of the ego, of our inferior nature, in denying us the exp erience of joy. We should also understand that "wanting" is a veritable hurricane of emotion and that true joy can never be realised in the presence of something so disturbing.


________________

Keep in touch and all the best.

Topal
 

rosada

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Well I am seeing I must abandon my curmudgenly ways as this question has sparked some very useful conversation. Indeed, perhaps I was not so far off in suggesting we should consider all 64 hexagrams in the light of revealing what lessons we are here for. Maybe even put together a WEBook, Life Lessons and The I Ching. The proceeds could go to funding this site!
 

ben_s

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Thanks for the kind words. Thank you for the invitation to not worry about "balance of payments" between the lakes. Yes, a hidden demon from the past is the premise that I shouldn't ask for help, even if I need it. Splish splash, sometimes I have opinions to share, sometimes they're even wise, sometimes someone else's advice flows into my life.
 

Tohpol

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46.6 is a fuuny one. Seems to be 2 schools of thought as i recall bringing it up before. One school says you go too far with something, the other sees it as an encouragement to keep going even if you can't see where something leads. The sprout doesn't know when or how it will hit the the open light but it has to keep on and not lose heart - not
that a sprout can lose heart :D I go with the second - I feel the compass is set or your direction is pretty much well grooved/predestined (these are not the right words but...) but you aren't in a position to see that now so like the sprout under the earth you have to keep going where your instinct leads and trust this impulse will take you where you need to go.

If you feel discouraged sometimes i think this line is a reassurance of a kind. Like you say trusting your ability to navigate through darkness.

Hi Trojan,

I think your interpretation of this line is spot on, especially when cross checked with other readings.

Just wanted to come back on that. And kick start this thread again....:mischief:

Topal
 

mudpie

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i also offer my hand to Ben in any way it could be need ed, now or future.

i was sorry I asked when i got 29 no changing lines...does this mean I am slow stubborn learner? I am not a skiier of the treachourous traills and I dont sky dive, so I am guessing this is pointing at repeated inner trials and challenges, or maybe helping others through theirs, which is something i do comfortably in professional life. I have always been interested in the bereavement process and how much it reminds me of a life-giving river, ironically. i also moved schools, homes and states repeatedly as achild

29.0 reminds me that there is this river ride one can take in the bottom of the grand canyon. there is a point where the light is completely obscured and the current extremely swift. those who emerge are said to be "reborn"...i have to say that that kind of adventure really does call to me, and I may have to see about going soon. anyone wanna join me, any other 29ers out there? but first I better find out if there are people who DO NOT emerge:eek: I will pass on the 29.6, thanks.
 

philippa

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This is an interesting hexagram. (Your thoughts on it are too.) I recall that in one interview Hilary did, the interviewee mentioned receiving 29 for a client. (My memory is shaky but I recall that) the client ended up going white water rafting (sounds dangerous!), and whatever the issue the client had before cleared up after the trip.

There's a saying in Chinese that it's better to have fun in the mountains than in the water. The point is that water is considered dangerous (at least in the old days). But because there are two main rivers running through the mainland, you often don't get things done without crossing. I sometimes wonder 29 simply means that you have to take challenge and find out for yourself.

i was sorry I asked when i got 29 no changing lines...does this mean I am slow stubborn learner? I am not a skiier of the treachourous traills and I dont sky dive, so I am guessing this is pointing at repeated inner trials and challenges, or maybe helping others through theirs, which is something i do comfortably in professional life. I have always been interested in the bereavement process and how much it reminds me of a life-giving river, ironically. i also moved schools, homes and states repeatedly as achild

29.0 reminds me that there is this river ride one can take in the bottom of the grand canyon. there is a point where the light is completely obscured and the current extremely swift. those who emerge are said to be "reborn"...i have to say that that kind of adventure really does call to me, and I may have to see about going soon. anyone wanna join me, any other 29ers out there? but first I better find out if there are people who DO NOT emerge:eek: I will pass on the 29.6, thanks.
 

ben_s

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Things are definitely looking up over here. A charity decided to provide help that lets us cover the insurance payment, and catch up on the everyday bills. This means that we have a month, rather than just a few days, to get more clients. It also means medical choices about the cancer can be made for medical reasons, not for saving money reasons. A big relief and a great answer to prayer - so, thanks for all the kind words & for your prayers.
 

knotxx

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26

I am so glad to hear that!

I was pointed here by Hilary's email--it's a great thread. I wanted to say about 29 -- my New Year's reading for 2008 was 42-29, which was great yet hmmm. So I have been thinking about 29 a lot, and trying to see the wild bumpy ride as a blessing, and peel my fingernails off the edge of the bank--I am a great clinger. It's danger but it brings great blessings, too -- I mean that's in the hex itself, even without 42.

I just did these throws and got 26-6 for the first one, and 26 for the second one. I guess it is quite right as 26 is a hexagram I have never had a good grip on. Focus? I could definitely use better focus. Not eating at home? is that -- taking nourishment in places that feel strange to me? hm.
 

Tohpol

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Hey Knot,

Whoah! double 26. Pay attention to that one. Yi is putting a flag up! :D

Here's what I think: I got 26 a great deal last year after a particularly difficult period in my life. However, what I'm realising now, at the time, being by nature impulsive, it was essential that I dropped back out of the emotional maelstrom. Somewhat on faith, I did so and feel I'm making progress in understanding myself better, what makes me tick in certain re-occurring situations.

26 is good for that. It forestalls that energy and force that circulates in the mind/body and wants out no matter what! Usually without any thinking behind it. 26, for me partners with 33, 48, 41 and 50 in that it brings to mind a cauldron bubbling with new ingredients (new understandings) but it MUST simmer for a while to enrich that required flavour and which is all your own. Then one can act. (That's just from my own readings - I'm no expert you understand).

As to 26.6 seems to be that this life could be about that "restraint" finally coming to fruition perhaps?

6: "The time of obstruction is past. The energy long dammed up by inhibition
forces its way out and achieves great success. This refers to a man who is
honored by the ruler and whose principles now prevail and shape the world."

- Wilhelm

Topal
 
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Tohpol

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Things are definitely looking up over here. A charity decided to provide help that lets us cover the insurance payment, and catch up on the everyday bills. This means that we have a month, rather than just a few days, to get more clients. It also means medical choices about the cancer can be made for medical reasons, not for saving money reasons. A big relief and a great answer to prayer - so, thanks for all the kind words & for your prayers.

:pompom::pompom::pompom::pompom:

Good news.

Topal
 

knotxx

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thank you!

Thank you topal -- your ocmments on 26 were enormously helpful and interesting.
 

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