Beginners' room

[hilary]

Greetings Mtpathy,

Yes, the method of 16 (along with all others I know of) just builds up the hexagram one line at a time. Here are the associations:

7 beads for unmoving (lesser) yin
5 beads for unmoving (lesser) yang
3 beads for moving (greater) yang
1 bead for moving (greater) yin

That makes the odds of getting the different kinds of line almost exactly the same as in the yarrow method. (Provided, that is, you are always selecting from 16 tokens, ie you put the bead/marble back after each line.)

There's a section in this site on different methods, starting here. (Click the arrows through another couple of pages, and you get to 16 beads or 2 coins.)

More detail and a lot more mathematical know-how at Remo Dentato's site - click on 'marbles' and then '16 marbles' in the LH menu.

 

[hilary]

P.S. Bradford, do you know the logic behind Zhuxi's arrangement? I had a vague idea that was the right way round in theory, though I didn't know the source, but I find it very counter-intuitive. You naturally think of energy and change entering from below, so when yang enters yin, I expect to get lesser yang. Did he think of these things as entering from above, or not moving at all, or...?

 

[heylise]

When you look at the Tai-ji symbol in the center of the picture, then the top (South) is most yang of the entire year. But it has a tiny bit yin inside. The bottom is most yin, but it has a tiny bit yang inside. Inside is in bigram-notation below.
So yang is a yang line with a yin one below it.

LiSe

 

[jada]

The question was about what the future holds for our relationship.

 

[bradford_h]

Hi Hilary-
I can't answer that.
Only that Shao (lesser) Yin follows Tai (great) Yang in the sequence, which is a mini version of the 64 sequence.
I also don't know how to post the figure 5 jpeg (or the emoticons) on this forum.
Do you want Zhuxi's Yixue Qiming by private Email? It's 1.4 mb.
b

 

[cheiron]

Hi Jada

Great ? Will now try to say something useful for you about your reading?

I am assuming that you will be returning to the Yi Jing for other questions? So will make a few broader comments too? Hope that?s Ok?

Also I am going to keep this straight forward? there are other techniques which will open up more depth in the reading.

First -The question:
This is very important? For example asking what will happen does not tell you (necessarily) what you can do to make it happen or avoid a problem? so carefully thought through supplementary questions are useful once the original one has been used to open up the landscape a little.

Your first Hexagram was 48 ?The Well? with the second line changing leading to Hexagram 39: ?Difficulties?

The Well as the first hexagram shows the current situation:
Often this refers to a person or situation which is the centre of providing what those present in the situation need to sustain themselves. So here the Well might well refer to the relationship itself. Wells are a source of Water, and as we know, Water is a good symbolic representation of feelings and emotions, the centre of a love relationship.

The hexagram embodies the idea that the Well must be maintained and kept in good order so that all involved can draw on its sustaining and clear water. It does not just happen.

Outer and Inner worlds (from the nuclear hexagram):
By repeatedly addressing outer difficulties one here is able to refine their inner source where the water of their being wells up.

The transforming second line:
This line portrays a situation where the well has been allowed to fall into disrepair. No longer is it the source for good clear ?water?, it is only good for a spot of fishing? well fish are nice, but what a waste of such a good life enhancing source.

Resulting Hexagram 39 ? Difficulties:
Now this is really interesting as ?Difficulties? is also the nuclear hexagram cited above also!

This hexagram can either represent the current situation in which the first hexagram is situated or perhaps a potential situation following on from the dynamice of the time of the first hexagram?.

Put more plainly:

1 The well is in disrepair, only good for fishing leads to difficulties.
2 The Well is situated in a difficult time the result is that it needs renovating so that one can do more than just fish in it.

You need to intuit which it is ? or both?!

Difficulties means confronting hardship and feeling hampered.

It is symbolised by a time when there is stillness in the inner world (the relation ship is stilled) and dangers in the outer world of action? Potentials for bad results by moving forward incorrectly.

Though this time is difficult it contains within it the possibility of renewal and renovation, but not just yet.


Hmm, I wonder, has the Yi Jing done any more than just tell you what you know?

After all you asked about the relationship which is unable to think and act of itself.

I wonder what you could do in the situation and what potential that might yield?

Well ? I hope this initial exploration is of help... Others may well open it up more.

All the best

--Kevin

 

[jada]

Kevin-
Wow! That is so right on, things that in the back of my mind, I know, but sometimes it takes someone else telling you before you really listen to your inner feelings.

I asked a second question about what I can do to help the relationship go in positive direction. 15 to 2 was the answer that I recieved. Since you did so well explaining my last question. Can you help me on this one?

 

[shelley]

Hi Jada,

First, a few ideas to add to Kevin's comments about 48 to 39:

As Kevin said, the image of the Well being in disrepair seems to fit with the present state of your relationship and you already knew that. Hex. 39, then might be seen as offering advice about how to make the necessary repairs.

I'm just beginning to learn to interpret the Yi for myself. I'm not yet confident of my ability to do that for someone else so the following comments are a summary of what I've found by looking at several different commentaries.

It would be useful to try to see the situation from a fresh perspective - to take a step back and look at it from a different angle. Perhaps you're so closely involved that you can't see all the potential ways of dealing with it. Look inside yourself and see whether your attitudes might have contributed to the deterioration of the relationship. Were you becoming a little too dependent, perhaps? (I'm just bouncing ideas around, you understand. I may be way wide of the mark.)

Seek advice from trusted friends (the Yi says it is favourable to see the Great Man. That might be your own "inner sage" or somebody you know who has wisdom in such matters.) Maybe just spending more time with your friends would help you become sufficently detached to get a clearer idea of how to proceed.

Although hex.39 is about obstacles, it isn't an unfavourable hexagram. It says, 'Don't give up. The obstacles can be overcome.'

Now you've asked, very sensibly, 'What can I do to help?' and recieved 15 changing to 2.

Hex.15 is Modesty. It advises being small and humble, simple and sincere. You might find it helpful to read what Hilary wrote about this hex in detail here:
'Answers' newsletter No.43

Line 3 simply emphasises the need to work towards your goal in a completely humble manner. Pride will not help.

Hex.2 is Earth, the receptive, yielding... There has been a lot written in this forum about Hex.2, much better than I could put it. Try looking at this thread:
1 & 2: Archive through November 08, 2003. If you scroll down a bit you'll find Kevin (Cheiron)'s posting of Sun 8 Nov which explains it beautifully.

BTW, if you have time to read that whole thread you'll get to know a few of the forum members a bit and have a laugh while you're about it.

Anyway, I hope this helps a bit. Sorry if it's on the long side. Let us know what you think and let's see what our more knowledgeable friends here have to add.

Love,

Shelley

 

[cheiron]

Shelley

Warm hug

--Kevin

 

[jada]

Thanks to both of you! You are very wise indeed!

 

[mtpathy]

thanks everyone i appreciate all the help.
ill probably troll this forum for awhile
and read up till i get a better grasp of
what its all bout

 

[frandoch]

Hi there,

If we use the three coin method, the chances of getting Changing Yang or Changing Yin are equal. This is not the case if we use the Yarrow stalks. In this case there is a greater chance of getting Changing Yang. The probability of a Changing Yang is three times the probability of getting a Changing Yin.-, which is reflected in the 16 counter method.

But there are two fallacies operating here. The 3 to 1 probability is based on all possible ways of dividing the 49 stalks, and assumes there is an equal likelihood of dividing them into 48 and 1, as there is of dividing them into 25 and 24. But we tend to divide them more equally - more often into more equal piles rather than into the extreme very unequal ones.

In addition - the Laws of Probability don?t apply to single events, only to long runs of trials. An example. Consider tossing a coin. Ignoring the possibility that it will land on its edge, there is an equal chance of it landing ?heads? or ?tails? in any single toss. Even if it?s landed ?heads? 20 times in a row, the chances of it coming down ?heads? or ?tails? again are still equal. But the Law of Probability suggests that it?s more likely to come down ?tails?, because if we toss it 100 times, the result will be nearer 50/50, and if we toss it 1000 times, it will be even nearer 500/500.

When we consult the YI, by whatever method, it is a single event and so the Laws of Probability don?t apply. But then, if we believe that the Yi is an oracle or a source of guidance and wisdom, neither do the Laws of Chance.

I don?t think it matters which method you use - the Yi knows.

Michael F.

 

[ninepatch]

Fur -

Seek out a soaper - no, not that kind!

A bar of handmade soap - use it to wash your hair. You will be amazed at the results. I know this because I am a soaper and have converted many a sceptic. If they don't tell you how to use it, post and I'll give the info.

Soap, not just for grannies any more!

Peace,

Beth

 

[doesilus]

I am a beginner at the I Ching and would be grateful if anyone can point me to a reference, preferably on the Internet where I can find the significance or meaning of phrases like "From the south/north" ?The great Stream?. Where do they come from, what do they mean

 

[deanna]

Oops, nevermind, it was so simple and short i just completely missed it, so nevermind. anyway, hope to be a beneficial and contributing part of this community.........nice place! I am so brand new though i will probably just lurk and learn. Thanks for being here.

 

[just_me]

I just have a simple question regarding the relating hexagram. If I remember right there is at least 3 possible interpretations for the relating hexagram, it can be

1). How things will flow from the primary hexagram

2). Sort of the backdrop or context of the primary hexagram,

and

3). I seem to remember there was a third possible interpretation but I don't remember what.

I await your answers and/or corrections.

Thanks

 

[madversity]

hi. from my experience with the Yi the meaning of the relating h is, like all else, context bound. i find intuition has a large part in the way we eventually read it. though there r times im still unsure...

anyway, the hexegram can express the situations potential. what it could become. so that could say - do's or don'ts regarding your actions in a given state of affairs.

though, many times i find it will guide me to an appropriate state of mind. so there r many frustrating moments when i cant get it and guess, or act by intuition, or impulse. hope this might helps you JM. tali.

 

[cheiron]

Hi
Agreeing with Tali

somewhere on these threads (Hilary?) I saw the idea that the relating Hx. is the "Sea in which the primary Hx. swims"

That phrase hurt my head at first, but made me take Tali's approach more.

The Yi Jing, for me, has been a long road of empowerment and learning... because it is sometimes unclear it demands that I activate my own understanding...

When I do that in the context of the answers I am given then the lessons become clear (ie they have a context and cease to be a series of poorly connected events).

However... getting concrete... if a reading says this is the situation and advice.... transforming hex 'something horrid' Then we might be left with your problem of:

1 Am I within a horrid situation and this is the way to deal with it?

2 Am I in a situation and this will lead to horrid?

3 Transforming hexagram is the general backdrop?

Well if intuition don't work ask the Yi about the transforming hx!

I sometimes ask 3- 6 questions if I really want to penetrate a reading... but I do a lot of reflection in between them... rushing seldom works well for me.

Actually before now my questions have run up into the 20?s? but this is a different technique? I call it dialoguing? it is more like a conversation? a wonderful way? the Yi will crack jokes as asides; chide then move on? I digress!

Hope this is of use.

--Kevin

 

[heylise]

The simplest relating hexagram is from a one-line change.

In every hexagram every line had a 'name'. Eg. not "bottom line of hex.32" or "six at bottom", but "32's 34", "32's 62" and so on. Some translate zhi not as 'its' but as 'going to', which would point at a sequence, but I see no good reason for it. Zhi is usually its or his.

Hex.32 is the 'time' of your question, and 34 or 62 specifies which part or kind of this time. It can be a result, a cause, a 'sea'. It gives a color to the primary hex. In this case two very different colors. Steady in a spirit of 34 is almost the opposite of Steady as 62. That is also the reason why two lines of the same hex can have such different meanings.

I think for more lines the principle stays the same. "32 its 55" is hex.32 with lines 1 and 2 changing. "Steady in organizing your plans (55)" (or reversed, organize in steadiness) as a combination of 32 with 34 and 62 does indeed make sense. Enough power, and yet staying within the limits, the way to act out your plans in a steady way.

LiSe

 

[madversity]

hi jade. your heading caught my eye and after reading your letter id like to say something about heart (emotions) and mind (thought). sadly, we r taught that emotions pose a threat to the process of reasoning. we rnt meant to ignore either of them.

feelings r there to b akcnowladged and understood. ignoring this input would make us incomplete and our thoughts incoherent. so seeing them as polarity's and judging yourself r irrelevent and not healthy.

3 yrs ago i parted with my fiance and returned to israel, from canada. he too is divorced and has two children. i havent seen him since. though we r in touch and i dunno what will happen.

it was during these last yrs that i have come to better know the Yi way, myself and my belief system.

my warning to u is never forget yourself. YOUR feelings, YOUR needs. it is all to easy to become obsessed with the relationship, while your mate isnt. that is not balanced, not healthy, not Yi.

imo he should understand that by changing the status of your relationship, of u. its important to remember this is not saying he does not have feelings for u...just that if he felt the need to make this shift he is not committed to u at this point and should do your best to focus on your own identity and if this b just a stage in your relationship, hogging it wont shorten the wait, the opposite b true. think of h18. akcnowladge the corruption of your relationship and take care of yourself, know yourself.

atm he is being a selfish sob. he is either not interested in u that way or maybe he is dissociated from his emotions for some reason. so if he pushes u away, step back and dont hold your breath. let him get thru whatever hes going thru and either he'll b back or he wont. dont take all the responsibility for what is happening on yourself.

since ur in touch with your emotions i would suggest distancing him at this point and not play the x game. if thats what he wants thats what he should get. ambiguity isnt a positive force here. good luck.

take care, tali.

 

[madversity]

i wanted to apologize for coming thru so crass and insensitive...i know ur very emotional now and it is more than understandable. mayb i wanted to say that there r no shortcuts when it comes to what really matters in life and finding our mate is sadly no exception.

a question u might want to ask is 'at what stage is our relationship and how should i proceed...?
i hope i somehow helped, though i know how it hurts to b pushed away by the man u love, let nature take its course, though i also get all ruffled and impulsive. take care. tali.

 

[madversity]

ya me again. 2 things. in my last sentence i meant to say that after all this time there r still moments i lose it, heh, him too. and about the question i asked, if used in a short term context u can use it often, since u "cant step in the same river twice" (Greece, BC).

dont worry about pestering the Yi, its u who r doing the work, though if u find its real intense, like too many times a day, getout a bit, distance yourself to tend to yourself. think of it like a bulemic attack...get out of the house without a purse. take care. tali.

 

[bradford_h]

Hi all-
Just popped in to point out that heart and mind are the same in Chinese (the word xin1), a paradox of meaning only seen in the English expression "do you mind?"

This may in fact suggest an approach to these problems. Keep looking for solutions until you can no longer distinguish between what is heart and what is mind. A compromise between the two is inferior - find the thing that makes them both happy.

 

[anya]

Hello there

I bought Sarah Dening's 'The Everyday I Ching' a while back, and have tried a few times to ask questions but am not sure how to interpret the answers. I'm not even sure if I'm asking the questions in the right way.

The reason I bought the book is because for a long time now I've felt I was in a rut and dissatisfied with what I was doing - I can't put my finger on whether the problem is work, home, life or something deeper... I just know in my heart that something isn't right. I hoped that this might help me find out what is wrong.

Anyway to cut a long story short, I thought I'd attempt a question on my work first. The question I asked is 'Should I pursue a career in IT' (I seem to have been zigzagging in that direction for some time now!) The answer I got was hex 43 followed by Hex 1. Can someone please help me to interpret what it means - I realise I need to buy another book as Sarah Dening's isn't a translation, but I'm not even sure how to interpret this one let alone any others!! Appreciate any help you can give me.

Many thanks and kind regards

 

[cheiron]

Hi Anya

Books I like, which will get you a little closer to the text and let you start using it a little more rather than relying on the authors opinnion:

Stephen Karcher - 'How to use the I Ching' 1997
Alfred Huang - The Complete I Ching - 1998.
Perhaps Jack Balkin - The Laws of Change'
Oh, you might like to check out LiSe?s site too ? her work is more fundamental and concentrates on the oldest layers of the text ? found scratched onto bones and tortoiseshells - http://www.anton-heyboer.org/i_ching/index.html

Also Bradford Hatcher? Simple Version which is a clear translation which will let you see more clearly what people might be basing their opinions on ? but perhaps better read after getting an entree to each reading in one of the other texts first - http://www.hermetica.info/

There is a book review page on this site - but 'xpect you?ve seen that.


Here?s a note on you?re reading

Hx. 43 is called Resolution.

Karcher (2002) (A very good book but perhaps not one to start with? unless perhaps you use his other one (above) with it as well) Says:

"Resolution, act clearly, make a decision and announce it; breakthrough; part from the past..."

This hexagram (the six lines) is a representation of a time when the results of an oracle is announced and two streams part.

One can only take one of the streams so the way to deal with it is to clarify what you must do and then do it.

(BTW The Yijing does like a little humour now and again)

He goes on to say ? This is not a time to attack or be defensive ? Simply decide and announce your decision to those around you ? It is a time when you will enjoy success on your chosen path.

The sixth line ? Represents a qualifier to the general statement more pertinent to your current time / situation. It Comes down to ?If you don?t make a decision you are stuffed and everything will go badly.?

The second hexagram perhaps represents the effect of your decision?

It is wonderful ? Pure creative energy ? The power to be a dragon flying in the heavens - no less! ? Great success.

It is all in your hands but the first step is to decide ? and then act.

Wishing you well

--Kevin

 

[anya]

Hi Kevin

Thank you, thank you, thank you.... your interpretation is so close to the bone, it's as if you've read my inner thoughts and feelings! In particular the part about making a decision and parting from the past; I also appreciate the warning that if I don't act then I'm 'stuffed'. That's something that I am well aware of due to the rut I've been in for some time now, it just hit home seeing it written down like that!

Everything you said, from start to finish is pertinent and somehow I think I knew this deep down inside, maybe I just needed someone (or something) else to say it!

I've visited LiSe's site, and was well impressed, I don't understand much of it just yet but with a bit of perseverance and study I'm sure it will come. I'm also going to invest in Stephen Karcher - 'How to use the I Ching' 1997.

Do we choose the I Ching or does it choose us? I have to ask myself how I came to be here...?
How I got here I don't know, but I'm grateful that I've arrived...

Warmest regards
Anya

 

[silver_jaguar]

Greetings,

How would you advise someone in remembering the content of each Hexagram?

Would you suggest studying them from the beginning
i.e. working with Hexagram #1 for a week,then moving on to the next etc?

Hope this makes sense :\

Silver

 

[bradford_h]

Hi Silver-
I hope a few recommendations come up here.
My two cents for a study program:
Get three of the widely read translations and study one hexagram a day (not week) in all three versions, taking notes. If I had to pick the first three I'd do Wilhelm, Legge and Lynn. I would also study all of the material besides the hexagram texts. When you are done, do it all over again with three more versions.
Don't be too surprised if your experiences on a given day start to synch up with the hexagram you are studying.

 

[cheiron]

Thanks Anya

Glad it resonated.

Hope you stick arround.

Ask more questions and contribute your life learning.

Let us all know how it pans out.

All the best

--Kevin

 

[chrislofting]

another perspective -

understand the trigrams as given in

http://pages.prodigy.net/lofting/lofting/t1.html
http://pages.prodigy.net/lofting/lofting/t2.html
http://pages.prodigy.net/lofting/lofting/t3.html
http://pages.prodigy.net/lofting/lofting/t4.html
http://pages.prodigy.net/lofting/lofting/t5.html
http://pages.prodigy.net/lofting/lofting/t6.html
http://pages.prodigy.net/lofting/lofting/t7.html
http://pages.prodigy.net/lofting/lofting/t8.html

A hexagram can be interpreted as a yin base and a yang top. These positions are occupied by trigrams. The overall movement is bottom to top and so:

(a) from the yin emerges a yang.
(b) the yang attracts the yin.
(c) the yin takes over.
(d) go to (a).

Things get complex when yin-based trigrams are in yang contexts and visa versa but that comes later.. as does the realisation there are 64 possible line comments, not 6! ... but it depends on which perspective you wish to operate from a la how you wish to use the IC etc.

Have fun. ;-)

Chris.