Clarity,
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Works for me, too17,4,6 - 42
17 line 4, 13 characters:
This is a very dificult line to translate:
To follow [something] and capture [it] may be correct or wrong. But if you let inner confidence light up your way how can it be wrong?
This means that if you follow someone with a sincere heart, it is not wrong to follow.
17,6 this is tricky too:
You hold it tied up, so it can do nothing but follow. The King will use it for sacrifice on the Western Mountain.
This means a sheep won't go willingly, although a sacrifice should be a good way to end it's life. So you make it come by dragging it.
42 just means more or increase
I Ching could easily express if you didn't have the financial means, but it doesn't.
It could warn you against the situation as whole, but it didn't.
Who is it okay to follow and who should be dragged along?
42 means more or increase but what?
A completely wild idea would be to drag you sister or a friend with you and find a bigger place? Maybe too far out.
Sometimes you get ideas when you ask questions. Then ask I Ching about the ideas you get, and then you get a clearer picture. That's what I do.
I'm puzzled about the 'may be correct or wrong' part. Are you translating zhen (divination, constancy, determination, etc) as 'correct'? If so, do you think of that as a widespread meaning for the word?To follow [something] and capture [it] may be correct or wrong. But if you let inner confidence light up your way how can it be wrong?
I often use Bernhard Karlgren's Grammatica Serica Recensa, it doesn't get any better than this dictionary so far, no Chinese dictionary is better. It is dificult to use, but the entries are in English.
I've been under the impression that zhen means 'divination' on oracle bones. (Which may or may not say much about its meaning in Zhouyi, of course.) If that's the case, then how could that be a 'derived meaning'?
are perfectly valid glosses, and a very simple sentence to translate. It also makes good sense in light of the overall meaning of the hexagram, (it can be harmful to rush the speed of progress, and we are still only in the beginning).3,5 To accumulate ones fat (or it's fat); if you correct it with small it will be good. If you correct it with big it will be bad.
Looking at the definitions of 貞 in the 漢語大詞典 it seems to me that 'correct' is a generalization of the major meanings of 貞, meanings which centralize on being loyal, faithful in behaviour, etc. (vol. 10, p. 47). In other words, 'correct' can be seen as a derived meaning. The HYDCD does give 'correct' as a meaning of 貞, but the first usage of this is in documents from the Southern Dynasties (420-589) - see definition 17 in the HYDCD.Zhen is a thing that everyone seems to agree on, except it doesnt work very well and it is also wrong.
For the Zhou period and actually also later it only meant to be correct or to correct as a verb. Even all the derived meanings are clearly derived from correct.
Similar phrasing occurs in the mentioned Baoshan divination records, and it might show that these instances in the Zhouyi which talk about the result of the divination, like in the Judgement of hexagram 2(安貞吉, 'when diving about peace/stability: auspicious') or line 2 of H3 (女子貞不字, 'divination for a woman desiring a son: no pregnancy'), might be later additions to the core text. Similar additions are found in the Fuyang version of the Zhouyi. Of course this doesn't account for all instances of 貞, but it is a possibility to consider.However, this makes it a perfectly redundant word and waste of the copyist's time: why not just say 'misfortune'? (We probably already noticed that we're divining...)
Yes, but Karlgren doesn't say if he means 'correct' as a verb or otherwise. Also, the problem with the GSR is that Karlgren doesn't give examples from the mentioned source, so you can't really check his definitions. The HYDCD does give sources, and at one definition it quotes the Shujing:Also, in Grammata Serica Recensa ”correct” is not listed as a loan word or far out derived meaning, it is an early example from Shujing and ”proper” is from Zuo Zhuan.
The titles Karlgren cites are the earliest texts that he knew this particular meaning of the word to occur in. Both are very old texts.
Nah, 'determination' is not in my dictionaries, as far as I can see.Shaughnessy translates this sentence with determination:
”Hoarding it’s fat; little determination is auspicious, great determination is inauspicious.
I don’t agree with determination as a valid translation, but if you do I agree it could make some sense.
Of course that doesn't make sense at all. Zhun 屯 might also refer to '(to) garrison soldiers', so for me it has to do with 'deciding/choosing your position'. Gao doesn't just mean 'fat meat', it also means 'the best, the ultimate' (漢語大詞典, vol. 6, p. 1361; 王力古漢語字典, p. 1008). So 屯其膏 could mean 'garrison at the/its best (spot)'. 小貞吉.大貞凶 might be a later addition, meaning 'Divination about small (matters): auspicious, divination about large matters: inauspicious.'This one is certainly no good:
3,5: To accumulate ones fat (or it's fat); if you divine it with small it will be good. If you divine it with big it will be bad?
See my former message for two other examples.Could we have more examples in this very inspiring forum of the use of zhen as ”to divine” in Zhou Yi?
Did someone ask a few posts back whether we should make a special exception for Zhouyi translation? I think there's a good case for that.
Hi Lars,
I hope you realize that nobody is against your use of the word "correct" for 貞 or that it doesn't apply in interpretation. The argument is about the notion that "correct" is the original meaning for the character.
LiSe said:If zhen originally meant "the outcome of divination", or in ancient view "the answer of the gods/spirits", which is how they experienced it, then 'correct' is a very logical derivation. One which has been felt at every 'answer'. If you did not follow what the spirits told you, you behaved very incorrectly. But the answer (where it came from) implied that it HAD to be followed, so one had to be correct.
I find that very curious. I never counted how many times zhen1 appears in the 13 Classics (not counting the Yijing), so I'll give that statement the benefit of the doubt. However, if that is correct, then the character appears a disproportionate 111 times in the received text of the Yijing. Assuming the received text got to us mostly untouched, and indeed dates back to Zhou times, then, as Bradford points above, the character must be interpreted in that context and from the perspective of what the book was originally: a divination manual.Zhen occurs only 48 times in all The Thirteen Classics (apart from Zhou Yi), some are used as a verb in connection with divination, the rest means correct. In some cases zhen means loyal, but in the sense of acting correct. I believe that zhen came to be used for divination in the sense ”finding out what is the correct way to act” by divination or ”to correct things” with the help of divination.
One thing is very dificult with the examples we give each other; we don't necesarilly agree on editions and overall meaning of lines and heaxagrams:or line 2 of H3 (女子貞不字, 'divination for a woman desiring a son: no pregnancy'),
Yes, but Karlgren doesn't say if he means 'correct' as a verb or otherwise. Also, the problem with the GSR is that Karlgren doesn't give examples from the mentioned source, so you can't really check his definitions. The HYDCD does give sources, .
When did yuan 元 ever mean anything but original, basic, first or prime? The examples for ”great” in Karlgren and HYDCD are a rare usage of this character, I don't know but maybe one out 1000 times. You are not told how many in the dictionary.元亨.利貞Greatly received offering. Profitable divination.
When did yuan 元 ever mean anything but original, basic, first or prime? The examples for ”great” in Karlgren and HYDCD are a rare usage of this character, I don't know but maybe one out 1000 times. You are not told how many in the dictionary.
Clarity,
Office 17622,
PO Box 6945,
London.
W1A 6US
United Kingdom
Phone/ Voicemail:
+44 (0)20 3287 3053 (UK)
+1 (561) 459-4758 (US).