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Best Way to Fight Coronavirus: 13UC

marybluesky

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I asked about the best way to overcome coronavirus and got 13 uc:

Oracle:
'People in harmony in the wilds: creating success.
Fruitful to cross the great river.
A noble one's constancy bears fruit.'

Image:
'Heaven joins with fire: People in Harmony.
A noble one sorts the clans and differentiates between beings.'

Very clear no? Taking physical distance from crowds.
 

Fortuny1889

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I asked about the best way to overcome coronavirus and got 13 uc:

Oracle:
'People in harmony in the wilds: creating success.
Fruitful to cross the great river.
A noble one's constancy bears fruit.'

Image:
'Heaven joins with fire: People in Harmony.
A noble one sorts the clans and differentiates between beings.'

Very clear no? Taking physical distance from crowds.

Wow !!! it's so clear yes!

Lise speaks specifically of the classification of beings, each according to their own type of belonging. In this context of Coronavirus it makes me think of the separation between contaminated and non contaminated.
It is a task that requires moving towards difficult decisions made and being consistent in applying them.

This seems to be the way: to distinguish and carry on the distinction to get the desired results.

Heaven joins fire

fire, in health questions, always makes me think of inflammation.

Heaven, however I don't know how to frame it in this case

Anyway wow ... interesting.

Thanks Marybluesky for the idea.
 
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Freedda

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Very clear no? Taking physical distance from crowds.
It's not all that clear to me, and that's not the conclusion I'd necessarily come to, because:

* Some names for hexagram 13 are 'Fellowship with Others', People in Harmony', and 'Agreeing with All'. None of those suggest the idea of separation to me, almost the opposite in fact.

* The oracle text says, 'Fellowship with others on the frontier' ... which suggest to me that we're at the cutting edge, the frontier of our understanding about the COVID-19 virus, and that we need to come together - as explorers naturally do when facing the unknown.

* The oracle further speaks of being persistent, maybe too of making a breakthrough, of 'crossing the great stream' in terms of coming up with a cure. This might include 'out of the box' thinking, like '... maybe we need to work together (in fellowship) on this one ...'

* The image text says that the young noble one 'distinguishes the clans' or sorts them to 'differentiate and brighten the beings'. The word here is Bian(4), and among it's meanings are: to distinguish, differentiate, discern - along with, to cut divide, find fault ...

... so, it could be saying that we need to find ways to more quickly and easily identify whom has the virus - that might lead to isolating some people, but for me that's a bit different, and more involved and nuanced than just 'taking physical distance from crowds'.

* And finally, looking at the trigrams - the two, 3-three line figures which make up the hexagram: we have Fire below, Heaven above - so perhaps it's our clarity, or willingness to shine a light on COVID-19 that will allow us to have a larger and more creative understanding about it.

Best, D
 
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mandarin_23

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Hexagram 13 is an opposite of hexagram 7, the army. In my German translation (Simon, I think it is - haven't got it here at my desk at the moment) it says that it originally means a clan, group engaged in war. Forming together; then, with the Yin line 2, standing next to each other in an ancestor's temple to receive the ancestor's mandate; then "hiding the weapons", then defending, attacking, and victory.

And it seems to be a bit similar of 7, but the perspective is different. In 13 it is people working together, whereas in hexagram 7, the perspective is that of the king or the general, who is in line 2 and also, just as the crowd in 13.2., waiting for orders. Only that it is the king's order in hexagram 7.

If you see it from this perspective, the Yi might just point at a common effort. Discerning, sorting out, yes, and fight it. Is it the immune system? Or is it just society? It is good to stand together. Maybe not too close, in the literal sense of the word ... but it will be common effort.
 

Olga Super Star

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I had 13 un twice and both were horrible casts.

Well one was on an earthquake, I then found out it had killed many people but I didn’t suffer from it directly.

the other time was about choosing new housemate.
I hve never thought about 13 as differentiating, but it makes sense now. I should have kept a distance with him. Having him as housemate was one of the worst experiences of my life
 

rosada

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Perhaps getting 13. unchanging means the answer involves considering the whole issue of fellowship, both from the standpoint of how can we work together to enable good health and also how should we stay separate to eliminate bad.

Interesting hexagram 14. follows, "The superior man ends hatred and furthers good."
 
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Freedda

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Perhaps 13. ... means the answer involves considering the whole issue of fellowship,
Yes, and I could imagine the court diviner saying to the Zhou emperor -

'This situation we're facing is new to all of us. Do what you must, but keep in mind the fellowship among all of your subjects - do not be afraid to persist, nor to take big steps in order to fulfill the mandate of heaven.'​

D
 

rosada

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Curious isn't it how this latest crisis comes on the heels of the made up threat of human immigrants and now we've got a real problem with microbe immigrants. Becareful what we visualize...
 
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Freedda

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... and now we've got a real problem with microbe immigrants.
... and to carry the anology a bit further - and maybe further away from the reading :duh: - we wouldn't exist without certain viruses and 'germs'. And there are many that not only reside in us but are a part of us ....

'Certain viruses are also integrated into the human genome as proviruses or endogenous viral elements.' ....

Not being a scientist, my sense of this is that many 'immigrant' virus are now in our DNA. And I think it is still more reason to consider 'fellowship among people / harmonizing people' (and all the myriad beings that go along with our 'human-ness') when dealing with COVID-19.

D
 
D

diamanda

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the best way to overcome coronavirus and got 13 uc
I'm adding here Dan Stackhouse's take on the old character for hexagram 13. It looks like a scientist above an experiment, so perhaps only science can help. Or, given the imagery of a mouth with a barrier, how about the 'man' is the virus, but is blocked by a face mask? Just some ideas here. See image below:

13.PNG
 
D

diamanda

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This is a new statement made by the president of South Korea, it sounds quite 13-like:

"We must maintain this trend. We have come this far thanks to the citizens who were united and cooperated well with the government. But it’s too early to be optimistic."
 
D

diamanda

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I'd like to add here that South Korea are vigorously testing their population widely, and enforcing very strict segregation / isolation. Both of these would fit with 13. In the UK, community testing completely stopped since a couple of days now (and not sure it ever fully started). The stats for the UK are non-existent anymore, they're not testing people who have the symptoms. No 13 here... here we'll get 28 :(
 

Greenleaf

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... and to carry the anology a bit further - and maybe further away from the reading :duh: - we wouldn't exist without certain viruses and 'germs'. And there are many that not only reside in us but are a part of us ....

'Certain viruses are also integrated into the human genome as proviruses or endogenous viral elements.' ....

Not being a scientist, my sense of this is that many 'immigrant' virus are now in our DNA. And I think it is still more reason to consider 'fellowship among people / harmonizing people' (and all the myriad beings that go along with our 'human-ness') when dealing with COVID-19.

D
I agree with this theory. Our human genome and our immune systems will take care of it. Fellowship with others, clan, could mean “herd immunity”, immunity that comes from our common human genome that we all share.
 
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Freedda

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Our human genome and our immune systems will take care of it.
That's not the conclusion I was getting to. I was just using the idea that life relies upon many creatures and organisms, and that we should look at this as a 'roll model' for cooperation.

This is exactly what is NOT HAPPENING right now, with some US lawmakers and Fox News spreading rumors the the virus was caused by the Chinese eating bat soup, or that the virus was created in a Chinese bio-weapons lab, or - perhaps most idiotic of all - the lie that Obama had some hand in our lack of a response! And the Chinese government is spewing the same nonsense, and is turning around and blaming us!

I don't think that left to our own devices, that our natural immunity nor our human genome will simply deal with it, just like we've never just 'dealt with' the flu, typhoid, typhus, measles, polio, etc without medical/scientific interventions, like vaccines.

D
 
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Gmulii

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That's not the conclusion I was getting to. I was just using the idea that life relies upon many creatures and organisms, and that we should look at this as a 'roll model' for cooperation.

This is exactly what is NOT HAPPENING right now, with some US lawmakers and Fox News spreading rumors the the virus was caused by the Chinese eating bat soup, or that the virus was created in a Chinese bio-weapons lab, or - perhaps most idiotic of all - the lie that Obama had some hand in our lack of a response! The Chinese for their part are spewing the same nonsense, but insteand blaming us!

I don't think that left to our own devices, that our natural immunity nor our human genome will simply deal with it, just like we've never just 'dealt with' the flu, typhoid, typhus, measles, polio, etc without medical/scientific interventions, like vaccines.

D

There is that. But there is stuff like this as well:

There are articles translated in English in the net, by some of the healers using traditional chinese medicine against the first wave in Wuhan, they have explained all they were using, all the meridian points, herbs, what to look in the tongue and pulse(traditional chinese medicine has diagnostic aspect that looks at the tongue and it has many different ways of using the pulse as well, and much more).

Now, some of the people there are traveling to Italy to help there and it doesn't say it specifically in the articles, but I'm guessing at least some part of them would be practicing traditional chinese medicine.

After all in China 90% of the people that got ill from that were treated with traditional chinese medicine and while as usual western media will try to represent that in bad light, sometimes, as our media is very messed up last few decades, we can still see the practical result in there, as they didn't had time for preparation like the rest of the world did.

Sadly, western practitioners of TCM, by default have a lot of problems doing as good job as it does by people that learn it in the East, usually. So not saying its a solution for the west overall, but some curiosity to how it works seems healthy as well.
So its a very good time to come together and see how we can use what is available, in my humble view.
There are always people that will focus on other stuff during times like this, no point being pulled into that imo.
 
D

diamanda

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I don't think that left to our own devices, that our natural immunity nor our human genome will simply deal with it, just like we've never just 'dealt with' the flu, typhoid, typhus, measles, polio, etc without medical/scientific interventions, like vaccines.
Exactly. The corona virus has already mutated 5-6 times that they know of. Also, infection with the virus does not guarantee immunity, as proven in China where people can get the same strain again. There is NO scientific evidence so far as to how immunity could possibly work, and thus 'herd immunity' is a huge nonsense.
 
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Freedda

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some of the healers using traditional chinese medicine against the first wave in Wuhan, they have explained all they were using, all the meridian points, herbs,
First, I should apologize. I didn't mean to imply that all Chinese - and certainly not many scientist or healers - were not cooperating with others. Many are just like their counterparts in the US and other nations and are trying to work together!

What I am referring to are individuals within the Chinese and American governments - and in many cases, to the governments themselves - whom are putting their politics and 'saving face' ahead of dealing with the crisis. I changed my post above to reflect this. And as an example of what I'm talking about:

'A Chinese official who has a history of attacking the United States online ... blames American soldiers for bringing COVID-19 to China, though the science does not support that narrative ....

The statements might simply be a distraction from criticisms about how China has handled the outbreak. Li Wenliang, a Chinese doctor who had tried to raise awareness about the virus in the early stages, was punished by the government and forced to say his concerns were an “illegal rumor."

Sadly, western practitioners of TCM, by default have a lot of problems doing as good job ...
Why would you even mention this? How does it even related to what I said or to this topic? I have never found this to be the case with the 'western' TCM healers I've seen. Instead, this is just an unnecessary 'potshot' - and feels inappropriate, especially since you go on to say ...
...no point being pulled into that imo.
So, which is it? Do you think people should work together, or are you being one of those "people that will focus on other stuff during times like this"?
 
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Gmulii

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Why would you even mention this? How does it even related to what I said or to this topic? I have never found this to be the case with the 'western' TCM healers I've seen. Instead, this is just an unnecessary 'potshot' - and feels inappropriate, especially since you go on to say ...

Its not relevent to what you posted, but its relevant to what i posted before that. : )
I have a lot of doubts in many of the western practitioners of TCM, many of them don't even know what the Five Arts are. Even here we have seen some that are trying to use acupuncture without reading/believing the classic texts, something that is absolutely impossible in the East in my understanding. And sadly that aren't rare cases.
And since I posted how good TCM works at times, I figured out its easy someone to take that as recommendation for TCM everywhere. Last thing we need is a bunch of people going to their nearest western TCM practitioner with the idea they can cure anything or even that it can work as well as we can see eastern practitioners do. And since that was not my idea, it seems good to clarify, there are good TCM practitioners and not so good one. And sadly in the west second ones seems to be more prelevent.

Appropriate or not, anything else can be taken as the idea that TCM is awesome no matter of the practitioner or their knowledge and in this specific time, statement like that seems irresponsible.

So, which is it? Do you think people should work together, or are you being one of those "people that will focus on other stuff during times like this"?
I believe we work together as far as general political ideas come from the media without any practical application other then to make people enter a specific state(be that angry, afraid or whatever is needed).
I don't think we should work together in the idea that anything or anyone out there, no matter how little knowledge they have for the eastern way, could produce same effects as TCM practitioners in the east often do.

I don't see contradiction here, its just different approaches depending on the level we decide to use. If anyone assumes anything that is saying "it can cure everything" can actually cure everything, they will run out of money a lot faster then probably, expected. So lets say we have someone that hasn't read the classic texts, hasn't studied under Chinese or eastern teachers, has more or less no knowledge of the five arts or the elements, but try to implement acupuncture often by formulas with no real understanding why... SInce that is the case for many of the practitioners in the west, seems the correct thing to mention that as well, since I am supporting the idea educating ourselves for TCM can be helpful.
 
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Freedda

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Its not relevent to what you posted,
Yes, I am glad you get that ... or at least you say you do ....
... anything else can be taken as the idea that TCM is awesome ...
Again, why do you insist on making this about you and your opinions of TCM? No one has said anything about being 'awesome' - only you.
I don't see contradiction here, ...
And I suppose you wouldn't, given how off-topic your posts are ...
I don't think we should work together in the idea that anything or anyone out there, no matter how little knowledge they have for the eastern way, could produce same effects as TCM practitioners in the east often do.
Again, completely off-topic, and no one has even said anything of the sort, except you! And if you want to discuss the merits of TCM, or your opinions about the deficiencies of western practitioners, I suggest you start a new thread in the Open Space forum.
 
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Gmulii

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Yes, I am glad you get that ... or at least you say you do ....
Again, why do you insist on making this about you and your opinions of TCM? No one has said anything about being 'awesome' - only you.
And I suppose you wouldn't, given how off-topic your posts are ...
Again, completely off-topic, and no one has even said anything of the sort, except you! And if you want to discuss the merits of TCM, or your opinions about the deficiencies of western practitioners, I suggest you start a new thread in the Open Space forum.

That is how communication often is, for good or bad. Topics change as they progress, other stuff may seem relevant or not.
And I can remember very good topics that started from a very different idea initially.
I rarely try to stay on topic as much as some members here do, once there are enough replies on the original questions already.


I can see its a lot more important issue here then in most other forums I have seen. Yet your post doesn't seem as connected to the original post as oyu may seem as well.
And why I would make my posts about my opinion... Probably, its connected to the fact that our posts are usually connected to our opinions. Its challenging to use someone elses opinion unless its a 1:1 quote. : )
 
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Freedda

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And why I would make my posts about my opinion
Well, I can think of a few good reasons why you might .... But you are correct, all of you opinions about TCM and western practioners are 100%, absolute fact and are completely on topic and are based on your interpretation of the original post, and you haven't tried at all to hijack this topic in at way!
 

Liselle

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This might be a good example of how (frighteningly) tricky readings can be, especially if you don't happen to know anything about the subject already.

13 at naive first glance does seem to say "fellowship!" I'd certainly have thought that. But it can't possibly be - every bit of reputable public health advice says to isolate ourselves. We already know that.

So what is it saying?

I see a difference between 37 and 13.

Notice how 13 has fellowship outdoors
instead of gathering indoors, like with people in the home.
Thank you for this observation. We're being told to work from home, use Facetime, conduct school online where possible, have things delivered instead of going to stores, etc.

Hilary's commentary for 13 says things like "find common cause." Support each other to do the right thing, maybe? It seems unthinkable to stop doing stuff we think we obviously have to do, so encourage each other to cross that Rubicon, as Hilary says in Language of Change.

"Fruitful to cross the great river" - from LoC: "cross the Rubicon," "enter uncharted territory," "go against the flow," "make the commitment," "take the plunge." Make an immediate commitment to not staying on our usual side of the river, doing things in our usual ways.

Yesterday I asked Yi for personal advice and got 44uc, a powerful woman who should not be grabbed or married. It might be a little similar to "cross the great river" in this case. Hilary says things like, "Do not imagine that you can bring her under control, assimilate her into your life and continue as before."

Odd advice for me, since I'm already as much of a hermit as humanly possible, lol. But I still found things I was inclined to try to continue. My cat's vet appointment, for instance. It's important - he has a condition that needs regular monitoring. I don't want to put it off for weeks. Plus, the vet's office is still open for appointments so cancelling on short notice is rude. But I did cancel it, per 44. (And the vet's office was great about it.) Getting my mindset across that river was not easy.
 

Wild Goose

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The question of whether 13 being 'outdoor fellowship' vs 'support in containment fellowship' brings to mind the debates over which is the best strategy 'herd immunity' or 'social containment', does 13 represent one or the other or something deeper that can represent both. I like this short video for explaining the strategies in a balanced way for anyone who doesn't already know.

Edit: okay, it's short on 1.5 speed
 
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Liselle

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Thanks for posting, JaT. That might put 13 in a different light, mightn't it. E.g. when I said this, I'd never heard of herd immunity.
This might be a good example of how (frighteningly) tricky readings can be, especially if you don't happen to know anything about the subject already.

13 at naive first glance does seem to say "fellowship!" I'd certainly have thought that. But it can't possibly be - every bit of reputable public health advice says to isolate ourselves. We already know that.
 

rosada

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Just looking at the symbolism of a hexagram with no change lines. If change lines are what connect one hexagram to another then 13. Fellowship with People in The Open without change lines is the perfect symbol for no connection between people = Social Isolation!
 

mandarin_23

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We are connected, though, not physically, but via the net! It's a common effort ...
 

Liselle

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Just looking at the symbolism of a hexagram with no change lines. If change lines are what connect one hexagram to another then 13. Fellowship with People in The Open without change lines is the perfect symbol for no connection between people = Social Isolation!
That's what I thought M.E. was getting at. I took it the way Mandarin just said, to use "outside the box" ways of connecting so to speak.

We are connected, though, not physically, but via the net! It's a common effort ...

But that was before I'd heard of this "herd immunity" concept, which apparently says go on as normal, continue to congregate, go to school, etc., and as a critical mass of people get sick, recover, and become immune, the disease will die out. If we isolate, that can't happen.

But of course as the video said it's a bad individual prospect: "Susie, by all means go to school, catch the virus, bring it home..."

But equally incomprehensible is shutting everything down until there's a vaccine months or a year from now. The only way I could imagine everyone surviving that is if the government literally prints trillions of dollars and funds the nation's entire economy for the duration.

I actually asked Yi that :rofl: (with a terribly-worded question, unsurprisingly)

"The government can´t literally bail out the whole U.S. economy, though...comment?"

43.2 to 49
'Alarmed, calling out.
Evening and night, bearing arms
Do not fear.'

Don't know what that means exactly, but there are worse things Yi could've said I guess.
 

moss elk

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I see your point, but I think Mary's question was bigger than that.

Do you? Why so?

She came to the same conclusion I did in her first post when she wrote:

Taking physical distance from crowds.
I asked about the best way to overcome coronavirus and got 13 uc:
Very clear no? Taking physical distance from crowds.
 

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