Clarity,
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You'll generally get an answer in accordance with the question. If I ask about an outer matter such as my car then I could likely expect an answer about that car which might be more outer focused/predictive....whatever. If I ask about something psychological in me I'd read the answer as about that. However as others have said part of the beauty of consulting is we begin to see often these 'inner' and 'outer' matters aren't so clearly delineated anyway. It's part of developing your interpretation skills you get to discern how Yi is answering you.But I still don't understand how you can tell from the Yi if an internal or external matter is being addressed.
And who or what is addressing anything anyway. Is the Yi Jing a separate entity,an "it", external to us, that has a consciousness existing somewhere in the Universe, or is it a means of accessing what lies within us.
It isn't within us we are consulting a wider intelligence.If it is within us then how can it address external matters, unless we already know the answers to everything already anyway.
It's not just a mirror of your subconscious, why would it be. It can show you aspects of your subconscious of course but that doesn't mean that's all it is.As I have only ever used the Yi as a method of self development, and regarded it as a mirror of my own subconscious, to bring what is hidden from conscious awareness to the surface,
Struggling? Why struggle just try it and see how it works for you. Ask about a practical matter that matters to you for example. Also there's 20 years worth of example in the Shared readings section of other people asking about outer matters. And as Hilary said what is an outer matter and an inner one isn't always so distinct. Relationships are both aren't they. And outer matters aren't separate from inner matters most of the time.Unless the Yi is a separate conscious entity I am struggling to comprehend how anyone could ask, and receive answers to anything other than internal personal growth matters.
I think Hilary answered that. It's the other way around anyway. Just use it and see and then think about whether you think it's inside you or outside of you.As the context, and comprehension, of a reading would change dramatically, beyond recognition, depending on whether the Yi is something "out there", as an it, or something already inside of us, already known, identifying the reality of the source of the Yi, would appear to be the most basic of questions to be addressed and answered before any other matters relating to uses, and interpretations, could begin to make sense.
Or in other words... yes, you're right, it does appear to be the most basic of questions, but it really isn't.
Hi. Of course the Yi informs of what we are not aware of, there would be little point in consulting something that only told us what we already knew.To get a definitive answer to this question, I think you'd need to locate - with clinical certainty - the dividing line between your inner self and the universal reality. Then you could say 'this answer is from my inner self, which I know for certain to be hermetically sealed and have no connection to the cosmos' or 'that answer is from the outer world, and definitely no part of me at all.'
Yi's answers tell me things I wasn't aware of. Did some part of me already know them? Maybe, maybe not.
Or in other words... yes, you're right, it does appear to be the most basic of questions, but it really isn't.
You'd better get cracking then on these ramifications and evaluating translations for relevance then Frankie.Then, and only then can the ramifications of internal or external be addressed, only then can any context be applied the the text of the Yi, only then can any translations be evaluated for relevance, and only then can any interpretations of any readings be considered.
You seem to have missed a fundamental point here. The I Ching is The Book of Changes not the 'Book of the Unchanging Inner Self in it's Underpants'.I would have to argue from my experiences that the true inner self s the universal reality, where else could any reality lie. Reality has to be unchanging, nothing on the outside is unchanging, the only reality is what lies within inside of us.
Currently you are at an impasse, unable seemingly to develop your thinking any further than a simplistic model of there being an inside and outside to you, defined by skin and that what is inside that skin, is, in your mind, utterly impermeable and so Yi is only permitted to refer to what resides in what you define as your 'self' which is currently that which resides within your skin. So the problem is not that your question cannot be answered but that you don't understand the answer or are unable to refine your thinking to the point of subtlety required to appreciate the answer Hilary gave.And so it really is the most basic of questions, As without that being addressed there is no way of understanding the context or meaning of a single word of the Yi. And with no context or understanding of the real meanings of the Yi no interpretations could ever be anything other than not reality and only an illusion.
To get a definitive answer to this question, I think you'd need to locate - with clinical certainty - the dividing line between your inner self and the universal reality. Then you could say 'this answer is from my inner self, which I know for certain to be hermetically sealed and have no connection to the cosmos' or 'that answer is from the outer world, and definitely no part of me at all.'
Yi's answers tell me things I wasn't aware of. Did some part of me already know them? Maybe, maybe not.
Or in other words... yes, you're right, it does appear to be the most basic of questions, but it really isn't.
The I Ching is The Book of Changes not the 'Book of the Unchanging Inner Self in it's Underpants'.
Hi Trojina. Thanks for the response.You'll generally get an answer in accordance with the question. If I ask about an outer matter such as my car then I could likely expect an answer about that car which might be more outer focused/predictive....whatever. If I ask about something psychological in me I'd read the answer as about that. However as others have said part of the beauty of consulting is we begin to see often these 'inner' and 'outer' matters aren't so clearly delineated anyway. It's part of developing your interpretation skills you get to discern how Yi is answering you.
As to whether you think Yi is a separate entity there is no factual answer of course it is a matter of opinion. Some people seem to go so far as to say everything, Yi also, has no separate existence from them, they think demons, angels all the powers of dark and light are all constructs of their own brains. Some may actually prefer to think that way as it means they remain in control- if everything is in my head I pretty much say what goes.
It isn't within us we are consulting a wider intelligence.
It's not just a mirror of your subconscious, why would it be. It can show you aspects of your subconscious of course but that doesn't mean that's all it is.
Also be clear the ancient chinese people who consulted Yi were asking about war and crops and rain and marriage all practical outer things. The Yi itself, the trigrams and hexagrams aren't made from shadows of subconscious impulses but from living nature, that's where they are taken from. Do you think ancient chinese people, rulers were wholly concerned with bringing out their subconscious?
Some writers want to virtually gag and bind Yi into little mirrors of themselves and their philosophies. It could be you have a skewed view because of the books you've been reading. Carol Anthony by any chance?
Struggling? Why struggle just try it and see how it works for you. Ask about a practical matter that matters to you for example. Also there's 20 years worth of example in the Shared readings section of other people asking about outer matters. And as Hilary said what is an outer matter and an inner one isn't always so distinct. Relationships are both aren't they. And outer matters aren't separate from inner matters most of the time.
I think Hilary answered that. It's the other way around anyway. Just use it and see and then think about whether you think it's inside you or outside of you.
Hi Liselle.I don't think this is provable, Frankie. How would you prove it?
I imagine most people here have accepted that the I Ching works, but there is a whole variety of ideas about how, and we can't prove how.
Hi Trojina.You'd better get cracking then on these ramifications and evaluating translations for relevance then Frankie.
Meantime you better close this forum down Hilary. Nothing can go ahead any further, no readings, no interpretations, no thoughts or discussion about Yi, nothing, not until Frankie here gets his internal ramifications sorted and THEN and ONLY THEN when Frankie has got all his ramifications wrapped up and his internals fully separated from his externals for relevance may anyone even think about interpreting any readings.
You seem to have missed a fundamental point here. The I Ching is The Book of Changes not the 'Book of the Unchanging Inner Self in it's Underpants'.
A cat might help in your development with Yi, give you a different fresher more interesting perspective. Constant inner self questions must be dull as ditchwater. Ask about the cat and then consider, if you are able, whether the answer is about your inner self or the cat. And consider, as has been said, that you aren't a hermetically sealed unit you have a relationship with the cat and the cat enters your inner world, you may dream of the cat, the cat might sit on your inner self when you're on the couch.
Currently you are at an impasse, unable seemingly to develop your thinking any further than a simplistic model of there being an inside and outside to you, defined by skin and that what is inside that skin, is, in your mind, utterly impermeable and so Yi is only permitted to refer to what resides in what you define as your 'self' which is currently that which resides within your skin. So the problem is not that your question cannot be answered but that you don't understand the answer or are unable to refine your thinking to the point of subtlety required to appreciate the answer Hilary gave.
Read it again and read the other responses again and maybe you will understand this and the other responses at some point in the future
No point repeating yourself and telling us no further interpretations can go ahead when you haven't read the responses you were given. If you don't read the responses given you are only having a dialogue with yourself here which seems to be how you like it with Yi too. So you only want to talk to yourself basically, with Yi or with forum it's just you and you?
Hehe. You beat me to it! I was just about to quote that one.The less one thinks about the theory of the I Ching, the more soundly one sleeps.
Well, those are all beliefs, not facts. Some people clearly do believe that the 64 hexagrams do indeed cover every aspect of life. Certainly the authors of the Da Zhuan thought so:I dont see anything in the Yi that talks about the outer world, it would be anyway impossible for 64 hexagrams to cover every aspect of the external lives of 6 billion people on the planet, and would be out of date anyway from when the Yi was first written. only if the Yi was a tool of the inner world, and had no correlation with the outer, would it have remained relevant today.
It's pretty much impossible to prove them right or wrong. It's a belief.The Book of Changes contains the measure of heaven and earth, therefore it enables us to comprehend the tao of heaven and earth and its order.
Okay, so you've decided what you believe. Cool.The external is anything and everything that is subject to change, the inner is that we we search for as peace and contentment, which is unchangeable.
Thanks liselle. I think I am at fault in not explaining myself clearly enough.One thing that might help is to try doing daily readings for a while. Just very basic questions, like "What to be aware of today?" or "Guidance for today?" or something.
A day is a nice short time period, which helps for things like this. You'll probably find a whole variety of "how Yi answers."
Come back and let us all know when you've got the definitive answer to your question. It will be fascinating to have it finally all explained in a single post. There's too much beating around the bush in this place.I suppose what I am enquiring is what exactly is the Yi.
Hi IrfanK. Thanks for your response.Well, those are all beliefs, not facts. Some people clearly do believe that the 64 hexagrams do indeed cover every aspect of life. Certainly the authors of the Da Zhuan thought so:
It's pretty much impossible to prove them right or wrong. It's a belief.
Was it Heidegger who was the Christian existentialist? I think he acknowledged that there was absolutely no way to prove that God existed, but that he decided, as an act of free will and choice, to believe anyway. As an act of conscious, deliberate faith. I think his point was that you do decide what you believe in.
Okay, so you've decided what you believe. Cool.
I think it's pretty obvious I was jesting. Sarcasm? Of course Hilary isn't going to close the forum because you say no interpretation can take place. But I think you know I was jokingHi Trojina.
PLease dont suggest that the Forum is closed. I havent actually had a response to my actual question yet.
And closing the forum would deny many of what they clearly consider important.
Which is why I am asking if anyone has any evidence as to what the Yi really is. And so the importance of whether it is an outer, or, an outer tool is really important.
Unless we are happy to live in an illusion. But why then would anyone care about anything. Surely it is only because we dont want to be determined by the illusion that we consult the Yi.
But thats why I am asking. Because after years of trying to work it out on my own, and only being able to come up with various and divergent possibilities, which are nothing other than beliefs, and discovering that there is a Forum where those with far more education and knowledge of the history might be able to shed light on this matter.Come back and let us all know when you've got the definitive answer to your question. It will be fascinating to have it finally all explained in a single post. There's too much beating around the bush in this place.
Hi Trojina. Aplologies. Not being used to forums, I dont get out much, I took you literally. Sorry for any misunderstanding.I think it's pretty obvious I was jesting. Sarcasm? Of course Hilary isn't going to close the forum because you say no interpretation can take place. But I think you know I was joking
Ever heard of 'jukkodave' Frankie? It's just you remind me of him a great deal, your styles are very similar except he was wholly taken up with probability and often was throttling several threads at once with the same questions whilst not really hearing any responses. It was very trying for forum members who were answering genuinely.
Currently you are posting the same repetitive questions across several threads neither of which are yours. There is this one also
"Crossing the great water"
In my practice, this term has signified completing an undertaking or taking a leap forward. Yet, I'm curious what the original implications of this term were and how it is translated, and if there's something in it I may have missed. Illumination requested.www.onlineclarity.co.uk
Given the extent of your questioning across 2 threads it would be a good idea to start your very own thread solely for the purpose of your questions. That way it saves other threads being totally overrun by your current preoccupation. If you feel unable to start your own threads and post in that the moderators can make a thread for you.
I don't think you're waiting for any such thing. You have had full and thoughtful answers across both threads now and it is my view you are wasting people's time, not hearing them, just posting the same question over and over again at length.Just waiting for someone to address the actual questions. At the moment everyone seems to be avoiding direct response at all costs.
Clarity,
Office 17622,
PO Box 6945,
London.
W1A 6US
United Kingdom
Phone/ Voicemail:
+44 (0)20 3287 3053 (UK)
+1 (561) 459-4758 (US).