Clarity,
Office 17622,
PO Box 6945,
London.
W1A 6US
United Kingdom
Phone/ Voicemail:
+44 (0)20 3287 3053 (UK)
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It’s interesting to compare this to the hexagram of betrothal: 31, Influence. It also talks of marriage, but from the male perspective
Maybe for you, but I doubt for me. To see you is a joy.
Are you thinking in something like this... ?
http://www.animationarchive.org/pics/blondie12-big.jpg
(Slow for loading but good to see)
I always remember Blondie, if not my first love, surely one of them.
Sometimes I even feel myself like Dagwood!
All the best,
Charly
P.D.:
H.54, among other things, is on pregnancy as requisite for marriage:
The bride is already pregnant.
Ch.
Hi, Dora:hmm, Charly, this comic strip can have plenty of meanings . . maybe Blondie is the 'little wife' but it's Dagwood that conforms to her demands . . you might want to rethink this . .
... my inner truth is not as strong or prominent on a specific issue, my critical eye gets blurry, I feel I need something to help me walk a bit more straight so I turn to an ancestress (my grandma let's say) as a girl that needs her larger point of view ...
Hi, Dora:
Of course, the little wife is the strongest part, I know.
The sense I get with 54, in love-relationship readings in today's world, is that it can refer, not just to a soft spot that two people might have for each other, but also to a very deep emotional connection. Thats whats happening on the "inside". On the outside, there is no "contract" to seal this connection. So, although one of the two parties is in a secondary role, the feelings of both parties are real. Whats confusing is whats transitory and whats going to be long-lasting. Perhaps the transitory situation is the present situation, where a formal marriage is not possible, but one must keep the "eternal" in mind as you go through the process of ups and downs - in today's world, a relationship that proceeds in fits and starts, sometimes closeness, sometimes distance. Looking at the optimistic side of 54, and coming back to Anemos' thought about the heroic nature of the people in 54 - I think that both the man and woman might need to be heroic here, not just the woman - perhaps that heroism is whats going to be needed to convert the 54 situation to a 53 situation - and a real grit and determination to stick it out for the long term until the situation turns favorable for both people, and converts the secondary wife to the primary one.
Wilhelm refers to this situation as one that is beyond beginnings and endings, which I sometimes interpret (I dont know if this is correct) to include the pessimistic side of 54 - the side that says it will be limited to the eternal soft spot between the two people, as they go through their own paths in life, with no hope of a formal marriage between them. Line 5 has sometimes been interpreted to mean that this is as far as its going to get - something akin to a very close friendship/affection/love, but nothing more. Even there theres always that tantalizing carrot on a stick - the moon that is nearly full, which means that if you stick it out, it will grow into something wonderful. Its easy to give up in this situation, I suppose one can wait years for a resolution, and perhaps thats why 54 does not usually result in a formal marriage - is there any real life evidence that it does? But theres the "not yet" aspect of it - always the hope. Shucks!
‘Gradual advance. The woman marries.
Good fortune.
Constancy bears fruit.’
Hexagrams 53 and 54, Gradual Advance and the Marrying Maiden, are what Stephen Karcher calls ‘The Great Marriages’. So what does ‘marriage’ mean?
To a large extent, that depends on your perspective: in old China, marriage for the man means opening his home to a newcomer and all the change she will bring, while marriage for the woman (as in this hexagram pair) means coming home into a new place. Those are two quite different experiences that work quite differently as images in readings. But in the most general terms, marriage means joining, becoming part of something larger than you are, to some extent merging your identity into it, so that your growth and its growth coincide.
Enough musings for now. Thoughts?
I wouldn't bet on that. Both from what little I've heard of arranged marriages, and from the direction of 53, especially its 6th line.It´s LOVE that leads to marriage and not marriage that leads to love.
That's how I see 54, at least in the version with positive spin. There's nothing bad about being a small element in something larger than we are... we're always part of something larger than we are. Only in 54, positive spin or not, you get reminded of that rather more forcibly than is comfortable.I'm reading this and wondering what is the difference of this to a positive spin of 54? accepting that we are the little wife in the face of a larger scheme?
Yes... but I think to grow into it takes time, goes gradually, step by step. After you've meditated and merged in the moment, you'll still need to get up and put the bin out for collection. To be 'merged' or still in the process merging while you put the bin out, iron the dinner and cook the laundry... that probably does require a kind of contract, a long term commitment.I have got stuck on your idea of this before. "joining, becoming part of something larger than you are " ? Depends how you are defining the 'you' here. We can sit alone and meditate and merge and become part of something 'larger', we don't need a contract for that.
For me 54 is all about a contract one is basically drawn to either through necessity or desire. Why else would anyone sell themselves short ? One will be sold short in 54, Wilhelm says "Undertakings bring misfortune, nothing that would further.". Desire plays a big part in 54 which is what I link Wilhelms 54 Image to "Thus the superior man Understands the transitory In the light of the eternity of the end"
I take it as 'desire is temporary don't enter into a contract for the sake of this'. Necessity though can give one no choice other than to subjugate and shrink oneself in order to accomodate the will of another. If we want something/someone we will do that accomodating, if we need them we will do that...but it is hardly a path of spiritual transcendence. 'Joining with something larger' implies to me a loftier goal, more spritual values etc etc so I'm saying I don't see the contract in 54 as promoting that. I see 53 as also about a contract...but one it pays one to stick with, to go through all the slow motions of the progress.
Wow, how depressing. Surely marriage can mean a bit more than that?...I think of 53 as the phrase "terms and conditions apply" the endless spheel at the end of any contract you sign ( that people never read). 53 takes a long time because the metaphorical 'terms and conditions' are there to get through. Matters re 54 readings can be very quick, no terms and conditions to wade through. Its like the difference between employing virtual slave labour for minimum pay...easy come easy go for the employer, no protection for the employee, quick turnover possible (hex 54) and a employing someone in a long term position where they are guaranteed certain securities...buthave to go through long drawn out form filling and interviews and signing of terms and conditions to get there.
Well, yes, you could be. Usual problem with going for the big metaphysical stuff in a hexagram: next time you see it it will be telling you about postal delays or something. But... well, I just think marriage means a merging-expanding of identity.Neither of these scenarios to me really mean joining/merging with something larger than oneself as one isn't merging ones self just making a contract.
I suppose I'm being a bit less enlightened/transcendent... thinking just of how x becomes part of the great clan of y. In that nice, simple sense x just became part of something bigger. All the more so if she goes on to bear children who maybe renew the mandate of heaven and found a dynasty along the way. From the point of view of a society resting on ancestor worship, connected to heaven via a chain of ancestral spirits, being someone's mother is an expansive thing to do. Staying in your parents' home as someone's daughter is not.But then I'm not clear how you are using this idea of merging with something larger than oneself. In what sense ? To answer that you'd have to say what you meant by 'oneself'. As I said earlier to transcend limits of what you might see as ones little ego self then no contract/marriage would really be needed for that.....indeed most often it would seem an impediment to it lol
OK, I don't see 54 quite like Wilhelm does. I don't find the juvenile desire and self-gratification and stuff. 'Undertakings' are also known as 'setting out' and trying to fix things and assert control, like sending out the army to civilise the borders and introduce them to your way of doing things. So that's not all undertakings, but a particular kind that involve fixing people and things according to your way of seeing. Not going to work.
As for selling yourself short... that's the negative experience of 54. You're becoming part of something where you'll be a small, junior, lesser part. The question is what size the 'something' is.
I agree that very often it's tiny, inadequate, and you get things like that classic 54 scenario of a woman making all her happiness dependent on some man for whom she comes a very, very distant second. But once in a while it can be something bigger - you can get line 5, for instance. Second wife might give birth to the heir after all. I've seen lots of depressing 54 situations and the occasional life-expanding one.
Wow, how depressing. Surely marriage can mean a bit more than that?
(*leaping about waving hands in air and pointing to line 6*)
Well, yes, you could be. Usual problem with going for the big metaphysical stuff in a hexagram: next time you see it it will be telling you about postal delays or something. But... well, I just think marriage means a merging-expanding of identity.[/
I suppose I'm being a bit less enlightened/transcendent... thinking just of how x becomes part of the great clan of y. In that nice, simple sense x just became part of something bigger. All the more so if she goes on to bear children who maybe renew the mandate of heaven and found a dynasty along the way. From the point of view of a society resting on ancestor worship, connected to heaven via a chain of ancestral spirits, being someone's mother is an expansive thing to do. Staying in your parents' home as someone's daughter is not.
Fortunately all these things are fun to translate into metaphors.
The joining-merging-expanding idea of marriage probably came together out of a bunch of lines... hard to find its roots... 38.6 is one of them, certainly, and 11.5, and things that Wu Jing Nuan says about hexagram 3... erm, all thoroughly amorphous and woolly.
Hi, Hilary:[Originally Posted by charly View Post
It´s LOVE that leads to marriage and not marriage that leads to love. ]
I wouldn't bet on that. Both from what little I've heard of arranged marriages, and from the direction of 53, especially its 6th line.
I
That's how I see 54, at least in the version with positive spin. There's nothing bad about being a small element in something larger than we are... we're always part of something larger than we are. Only in 54, positive spin or not, you get reminded of that rather more forcibly than is comfortable.
Charlie, the "nitty-gritty" is when you get down to the harsh realities of a situation, iow, when the honeymoon is over...
...
except in the song scenario, the man is in the 54 position
Hi, Hilary:I wouldn't bet on that. Both from what little I've heard of arranged marriages, and from the direction of 53, especially its 6th line.
...
Yes, that idea about joining or becoming a part of something bigger than “you” gives me pause. What is bigger than me? I find this idea negating. Rather I would think it is about réalisation, an understanding that indeed you are already big.I have got stuck on your idea of this before. "joining, becoming part of something larger than you are " ? Depends how you are defining the 'you' here. We can sit alone and meditate and merge and become part of something 'larger', we don't need a contract for that. For me 54 is all about a contract one is basically drawn to either through necessity or desire. Why else would anyone sell themselves short ? One will be sold short in 54, Wilhelm says "Undertakings bring misfortune, nothing that would further.". Desire plays a big part in 54 which is what I link Wilhelms 54 Image to "Thus the superior man Understands the transitory In the light of the eternity of the end"
I take it as 'desire is temporary don't enter into a contract for the sake of this'. Necessity though can give one no choice other than to subjugate and shrink oneself in order to accomodate the will of another. If we want something/someone we will do that accomodating, if we need them we will do that...but it is hardly a path of spiritual transcendence. 'Joining with something larger' implies to me a loftier goal, more spritual values etc etc so I'm saying I don't see the contract in 54 as promoting that. I see 53 as also about a contract...but one it pays one to stick with, to go through all the slow motions of the progress.
Same thought arises for me re 54. I've never known it to indicate something one isn't 'ready for and must 'grow into'. This is a contract where by its nature there won't be much room for your growth. What you are saying abut 54 doesn't tie in with all the 54 readings I've ever seen....to date.
53, another contract but one you can enter into without lopping bits of self off for the convenience of the contract.....I think of 53 as the phrase "terms and conditions apply" the endless spheel at the end of any contract you sign ( that people never read). 53 takes a long time because the metaphorical 'terms and conditions' are there to get through. Matters re 54 readings can be very quick, no terms and conditions to wade through. Its like the difference between employing virtual slave labour for minimum pay...easy come easy go for the employer, no protection for the employee, quick turnover possible (hex 54) and a employing someone in a long term position where they are guaranteed certain securities...buthave to go through long drawn out form filling and interviews and signing of terms and conditions to get there.
Neither of these scenarios to me really mean joining/merging with something larger than oneself as one isn't merging ones self just making a contract. But then I'm not clear how you are using this idea of merging with something larger than oneself. In what sense ? To answer that you'd have to say what you meant by 'oneself'. As I said earlier to transcend limits of what you might see as ones little ego self then no contract/marriage would really be needed for that.....indeed most often it would seem an impediment to it lol
It may have been 'infantile babble' but perhaps it it has become more like a fine wine. Becoming richer and taking on other qualities as it has been sitting in it's barrel undisturbed for 10 years.But ir means rereading the thread to know what the comment is about and I don't want to have to reread what I wrote 11 years ago. It would have been infantile babble, I was only 50 years old then.
Maybe it's just enough to recognise that someone else has found that comment inspiring enough to make a comment, without having to resurrect the whole conversation.I wouldn't know I can't stand to look at my old posts. And who wants to go back to an 11 year old conversation if it means rereading the whole to find out what you said and what you meant.
Isn't life just one long conversation? Where does one conversation end and the next begin - I wonder?Imagine if it were like that in real life, imagine if someone could pick up something you uttered 12 years ago and just continue the conversation from where it was up to then.
I'm not so sure it is about remounting but more a case of getting on a new mount. And what's more we have had a major internal and external refit. This upgraded version is also now adorned in a different suit of armour.You'd have to go back and re hear the entire conversation and then you might think 'what kind of fool said that' and then you might find it was you and you'd have to 'remount' the conversation as if you'd been jousting 12 years ago, fell asleep then someone poked you with a bayonet or a spear and you had to remember the whole game/jousting match and what part you played in it.
Does anything really just end up mid conversation? Maybe everything just flows from peak to trough, from then to now and perhaps even onwards to then and beyond.I imagine reincarnation may be something like that except you don't remember what was said you just end up mid conversation.
I suppose there is no one answer to how long a piece of string is - maybe a few microns long, like in a virus or maybe it's like 'string theory' (or what I imagine that might be) which is thought to "describe an enormous landscape of possible universes".Hilary makes a good point around 'having conversations slowly' after all ' How long is a piece of string?'
Clarity,
Office 17622,
PO Box 6945,
London.
W1A 6US
United Kingdom
Phone/ Voicemail:
+44 (0)20 3287 3053 (UK)
+1 (561) 459-4758 (US).