Blog post: Inner li as vision

[fkegan]

Hi Elvis/LC,

The assumption of a "the bit dichotomy of 0/1" is incompatible with 1100 B.C.E. zeitgeist. It may be obvious to modern computer types but what you rely upon is actually just the on/off technology of electric switches which require a language or coding to have meaning at all.

Does 1+1 =2 or 11 or 0 or 1? Depends upon the rules and system being assumed. Declaring one set of axioms as Truth vs. all else as False is not pure logic at all. The rest is self-absorbed tunnel vision.

Or in the practical alternative:

Either you are able to post two natural numbers 1-64 inclusive, the same number twice or two different numbers or you can't.

All the words in the Universe can't spin that inability to join discussion or demonstrate your perspective as anything else than self-absorbed partial understanding of early computer science run in circles to produce words without limit or meaning.

Frank

 

[hilary]

Hi Frank - please keep it polite. Don't know about you, but I have a feeling this thread could go downhill.

 

[elvis]

Hi Elvis/LC,
The assumption of a "the bit dichotomy of 0/1" is incompatible with 1100 B.C.E. zeitgeist. It may be obvious to modern computer types but what you rely upon is actually just the on/off technology of electric switches which require a language or coding to have meaning at all.

You seem to have difficulty understanding the concept of 'representation'. In our brains ANY dichotomy is an abstraction that differentiates the 'universe of discourse'. This differentiation can be repeated such that we move from the general to the particular and in doing so the qualitative nature of the elements of 0/1 differ.

Since at the base level neurology, regardless of the times focused upon, there is ONE, concrete, 'universe of discourse' and the hard-coded operators of logic are applied to such, and from such, given depth in recursion and application, emerges language through use of abstraction.

IOW all dichotomies are metaphors that tie the ONE 'universe of discourse' to different contexts and so the appearance of different 'universe(s) of discourse'.

Since these are all metaphors and all metaphors are interchangeable, so the 0/1 dichotomy can replace any other. What that does is give us access to the underlying logic operators at work in that context. The nature of the context is symmetric and so we will find evidence of 'all is connected', and the IDM/EIC material shows us how.

The focus on ANTI-symmetry is a focus on deriving meaning recursively from the initial, holistic, general, dichotomy of 'yang/yin' or 'expand/contract' etc etc etc

Thus the trigrams and hexagrams of the I Ching represent the movement from symmetry to anti-symmetry, from equivalence (sameness) to XOR (difference in sameness).

As such the 1/0 dichotomy is applicable to the 10th century BC mindset. BUT what is not is the discovery of the emergence of language from the formation of classes of meanings.

What is noticeable from research into linguistics, anthropology, and neuroscience, is that the infant starts off with a bias to symmetry in behaviours and only with the demands of a competitive context does the anti-symmetry develop, out of which comes a refined consciousness.

Consideration of basic language developments show us a movement from what Jung called 'Mythic' thinking (senses based) to 'directed' thinking (words based) where such allows for development of personal consciousness as a universal and so context-free. It is this that allows for imagination and the development of the figurative over the literal and so increase in scope of understanding. Neurologically this path requires high levels of distinction making (and so differentiations) where such hits a phase transition that shifts meanings, introduces the figurative, and so enriches understanding through refined language.

Since there is no evidence in the traditional I Ching material of the linguistic nature of the I Ching, its creation through recursion that leads to a level where language capabilities can emerge (i.e. the ability for the IC to describe itself by reference to itself) then there is the indication that the level of consciousness present in 10th BC perspectives was primitive and too tied to local context history/legend/myth to 'free' itself from such to become a more self-contained 'universe' form that is able to fit in to any context anywhere, or assert its own context over the existing.

If, from an anthropological position, one wishes to embrace 10th century BC mindset that's fine, but to try and maintain that mindset in the 21st century AD is a 'problem' since we have reached a level of understanding that includes the recognition of the language element present in the IC, i.e. we have passed the phase transition point, we can 'do better' than 10th century BC thinking.

You seem to stuck in interpreting 1/0 as representations of a particular, an instance, rather than the metaphoric nature of such that allows us to represent general and particulars and exploit the hard-coded logic operators in our brains.

Either you are able to post two natural numbers 1-64 inclusive, the same number twice or two different numbers or you can't.

- how binary of you Frank - I thought you considered yourself as 'above' such! Isn't such "incompatible with 1100 B.C.E"!

As covered in the previous post , given one or two numbers representing a meaning space of 1-64 will map to some hexagram and allow for interpretation. As the EIC covers, this will ALWAYS generate meaning since the WHOLE filter applies, all of the numbers, and their pairings, will be found to be 'meaningful'. (this filter is a general and so equivalent to a bosonic interpretation tied to the equal probabilities that come with Bose-Einstein statistics (e.g. 1 in 654 for each) - LOCAL context is equivalent to a fermionic interpretation as covered in Dirac-Fermi statistics)

The issues therefore are in the local context dynamics that can re-order the 64 elements from 'best fit' to 'worst fit' and do that in a consistent, testable, falsifiable manner - which is what the EIC does through use of loaded questions covering vague emotional states out of which we can get the unconscious to give us details possibly repressed by consciousness. IOW we devise a method to give us the best-fit (or close) consistently.

The reason for the emotional element is to reduce the consciousness element that can pick 'my favourite hexagram' over what we are after, the emotional assessment of a situation. (if you have played with emotions and senses then you would have covered such as the Luscher Colour Test where it too covers emotions but tied to the specific sense of colour An essential feature in this test is a level of repetition that is focused on ensuring one does not sort colours due to the favourites of consciousness since the intent is to extract unconscious elements that can tell us about existing concerns eliciting discomfort at the level of consciousness)

So - working with the binary it is all 1 and 2; try those. This leads into sequences (the binary pairing become the poles of a dimension of hexagrams and we can rotate that to give us another sequence covering the same poles etc etc etc etc etc - IOW Frank you are so tied to the traditional material and 10th century BC mindset that you are blinkered in understand what the I Ching is in fact all about!)

 

[dobro p]

This is just a speculative post, or a starting point for speculation…

I’ve started thinking of the trigram li – fire and light – as being like eyes, particularly when it’s the inner trigram. Then sometimes it seems to look out at the outer trigram, and sometimes it seems to look through the outer trigram, as through a lens or a filter to perception.

If you're seeing li as the function of looking or seeing through the lens or filter of the outer trigram, then are you also seeing the other two sister trigrams (or the other seven trigrams, even) in a similar 'this is X looking through the filter of Y' way? If so, what's Tui, for instance?

 

[elvis]

... in a similar 'this is X looking through the filter of Y' way? If so, what's Tui, for instance?

At the level of hexagrams we can get a better 'view' of filter dynamics in that the issues with focusing on trigrams is the lack of possible resolution power - we can map the emotional sense of a general 'acceptance' to fire but that is still at a very generic class level of meaning and so lacking the refined capabilities that come at the hexagram level.

"....[we build hexagrams by] repeatedly using a dichotomy to assess a situation but from a general to particular perspective and so extracting finer and finer details of the situation. From a musical perspective this is akin to building a chord, each note being a particular frequency and all notes summed to form the full sound we hear that sets the context for expression.

Continuing with the music analogy, in the I Ching the notes are the yin/yang lines and the general to particular format is of each line being a frequency of 1/2^n (n=line position number) and so half of the previous line's frequency. These notes/waves then sum into the general quality we associate with a hexagram and so our ability to 'feel' a hexagram (this brings out the tie-in to music through our tie-in of the I Ching with emotions and THEIR tie-in with music)

With the 64 hexagrams each like chords so they come with 'rules' about expression of notes (the 64 hexagrams now serving as representations of secondary+ harmonics; thus the set of all possible notes in music will include one of those notes as (a) a note and (b) a key within which other notes can associate but with some conditions).

The meaning of a hexagram expressed in its own context is a literal form but when expressed in a different context, and so out its own context, will be distorted due to the rules of the 'key' (equivalent to music’s sharps and flats) of that different context and so we move into a figurative form.

For example, the nature of hexagram 27 is about infrastructure and covers being careful of what you fill that infrastructure with - and so a sense of quality control. If I express this infrastructure state in any other context I have to apply a filtering process to conform to the 'key' of that context. Thus the characteristics of hexagram 27 expressed in a context represented by hexagram 01 are manifest in a form analogous to the generic categories of hexagram 28 with its focus on excess. Thus the infrastructure of hexagram 01, a hexagram representing strong yang traits, its skeletal form or original ‘mud’, is described by analogy to the generic characteristics of hexagram 28 (excess, too much yang).

Another overall analogy here is that of the I Ching to the genetic code and the distinctions of genotype and phenotype – where the latter reflecting the former expressed through some particular context. emotional I Ching p17-18

Given the filtering focus discussed, we can use the language capabilities of the IC to show us the expression of fire as hexagram 30 seen through any context represented by any other hexagram. Thus 'how does hexagram X, representing the whole context Y, express the characteristics of Z (where here Z = hex 30). The reverse of course is setting X (and so the "key") as 30 and all the others as Z ("notes"). XORing allows for this process.

If we focus on Tui, expressed in hexagram form as 58, it covers the basic emotion of 'joy' that goes on to cover self-reflection, intensity in expression, etc, and as such, using XORing, we can identify (a) the expression of 58 through other hexagrams representing contexts and (b) the expression of all other hexagrams expressed through a context represented by 58.

For the table covering expressions of all others hexagrams through a context of joy see the table in http://www.emotionaliching.com/lofting/bx011011.html

All of the other hexagram tables have a 'genotype' entry of 58 that maps to 'phenotype' entry covering the expression of joy through the particular hexagram under consideration.

(as fire can cover 'seeing' so lake can cover 'seeing reflection of self')

 

[hilary]

If you're seeing li as the function of looking or seeing through the lens or filter of the outer trigram, then are you also seeing the other two sister trigrams (or the other seven trigrams, even) in a similar 'this is X looking through the filter of Y' way? If so, what's Tui, for instance?

I haven't got that far - but the 'looking through' metaphor only fits li. Dui, inside, often seems to receive and circulate (/'reflect on') the outer trigram.

 

[dobro p]

I haven't got that far - but the 'looking through' metaphor only fits li. Dui, inside, often seems to receive and circulate (/'reflect on') the outer trigram.

Very, very cool. I thought you were about to generate a mechanical formula for a minute. What you're up to is way better than that. Don't push it; wait for it. If something occurs to you though, I'd love to hear about it. 'Inner through the outer' is excellent.

 

[dobro p]

13: fellowship means your seeing is powerful.

?

 

[dobro p]

22: seeing stillness in a world of change is the beauty of being the witness.

In my experience, that's beautiful.

 

[dobro p]

36: like you say. Just seeing, and accepting that you're just seeing and nothing else. 'I knows what I knows, but I keeps it underground'.

 

[dobro p]

Dunno bout 55. I mean, li's the sun at high noon, right? That's not exactly *inside*, right? But if you think of the sun at high noon, that's the height of its power, so wedding seeing and power, it's fitting to have thunder as the other trigram. But I don't see the meaning.

 

[meng]

Dunno bout 55. I mean, li's the sun at high noon, right? That's not exactly *inside*, right? But if you think of the sun at high noon, that's the height of its power, so wedding seeing and power, it's fitting to have thunder as the other trigram. But I don't see the meaning.

A migraine headache is also 55, where darkness and coolness offer refuge. Symptoms often include flashes of light.

Runaway blood pressure could also be 55 related.

Otoh, 55 could be a very needed thing, especially to make some difficult decisions, when vision is abundantly clear.

 

[dobro p]

I always see 55 so much as the king in the fullness of his power that I don't associate it with afflictions.

But maybe that's why I don't see it in terms of Hilary's idea.

 

[my_key]

I always see 55 so much as the king in the fullness of his power that I don't associate it with afflictions.

But maybe that's why I don't see it in terms of Hilary's idea.

Maybe it's more about being in the fullness of clarity. Seeing things for what they truly are, seeing right to the heart of the matter and really seeing the beauty in all things.
Maybe there is no such thing as an affliction in this type of world.

Mike

 

[dobro p]

Yeah, that's how I view it too. (In spite of it not happening very often in my case lol.) But to return to 55: how does seeing through thunder (or seeing thunder/arousing/shock) equate to 55?

 

[hilary]

Really glad you're playing with this too.

55 - how could you 'see through' thunder? Maybe you see everything in terms of what you have to do? That seems to tie in with the eclipse story, and seeing the Dipper at noon. Means you're not seeing the world lit up by bright midday sun, but you are seeing just enough to navigate by. There's a lot you can't see, but you can see what you must do.

...maybe...?

P.S. Dobro - I'm missing something here - onions?

 

[dobro p]

Layers of the onion, darling.

I've always thought of 55 as a peak time generally, and the lines as *unusual* peak times (eclipses). The hex as a whole seems one of abundance and peak time and fullness - noon, in other words, which happens every day. The individual lines seem to be fragments of that, or instances of that which happen only occasionally - eclipses and broken arms.

So...seeing powerful action? Seeing powerfully?

 

[dobro p]

13: fellowship means your seeing is powerful.

The Self is the essence of all things;
its creative power, called action,
causes the whole world to be

krishna

This is from the Gita, but it's the image I have of the Creative trigram and hexagram as well. Okay, you can't see the Self, cuz it's the thing doing the seeing, but you *can* see the world as the offspring or outpouring or creation of the Self. So, if that's the case, then 13 would mean something like 'fellowship is a condition of seeing the creative at work' or 'fellowship empowers seeing' or 'see the Creative at work in fellowship'. None of these work for me, though.

Fellowship isn't limited to kin, right? So maybe the idea's as simple as 'strength in numbers'.

 

[fkegan]

I haven't got that far - but the 'looking through' metaphor only fits li. Dui, inside, often seems to receive and circulate (/'reflect on') the outer trigram.

Hi Hilary,

The notion of trigram of Li 'looking through' requires taking the trigram meaning from its line drawing since the commentary upon Li refers to clinging fire or moving positions of the sun. Taking Dui as 'to receive and circulate/reflect on' would arise from the notion of that trigram as Lake, as Li is Fire. Is there an over all principle involved in your speculation or just a single shot of inner trigram li as an eye?

Hi Elvis,

Claiming 1,2 is a standard evasion of the two number test since that clearly did not arise within your own mental process. Though the Flock of Dragons without a Head, the traditional Commentary upon Yi Oracle hex 1 >> 2 is an excellent Oracle comment upon your verbiage.

When you are able to post what you personally see as two numbers, we can discuss it further. Otherwise don't claim you are interested in empirical verification...

Until then, this is a Divination thread about trigram Li...

Frank

 

[fkegan]

Layers of the onion, darling.

I've always thought of 55 as a peak time generally, and the lines as *unusual* peak times (eclipses). The hex as a whole seems one of abundance and peak time and fullness - noon, in other words, which happens every day. The individual lines seem to be fragments of that, or instances of that which happen only occasionally - eclipses and broken arms.

So...seeing powerful action? Seeing powerfully?

Hi Dobro,

Hex 55 is composed of trigrams Thunder Over Fire with inner trigrams Lake over Wood without an inner or nuclear trigram Li or Fire. Its commentary refers to impressive celestial displays like eclipses (or fireworks). The reference to "Be Not Sad. Be Like the Sun at midday" is more a metaphor than a direct association to Noon itself. More an association with the whole motion of the sun through the daytime sky and the change of the direction of the sun's shadow at noon.

The hexagram is about the inner force (Nuclear hex 28) clearly affecting this timing (line 1 Yang) with what will arise Next left open (line 6 Yin) and thus the advice to focus upon what you are currently doing, there are many hours of productive daylight still. The lines reflect this overall notion in various particular situations, like various stages of eclipse darkness or broken arms, all of which are temporary problems to be worked through to still produce results rather than being stumped or sidetracked at this stage.

As inner light or trigram Li as an eye rather than fire perhaps the inner energy of nuclear hex 28 or the fullness of passion and heartfelt feeling (lines 3 & 4 Yang) isolated by the openness of organization either locally or overall (lines 2 & 5) is shining through trigram Li to power trigram Chen.

Frank

 

[elvis]

The mechanistic way is more precise in dealing with classes and then allows consciousness to add local context flavourings and so the subjective. The class patterns are hard-coded into the I Ching and as such are 'invariant' and so 'beyond question'. The mapping to local context and so unique experiences then adds material fitting such experiences.

To focus on hex 55, the expression of fire (30-ness of 55) through such a context is described by analogy to the generic properties of 23:

101100 (55 as whole)
101101 (30 as aspect)
-------- XOR
000001 (23 as analogy of 30 expressed through 55)

As such the focus covers fire as pruning (discernment focus in a devotional form)

The emphasis on the diversity/abundance/overflowing of 55 brings out such comments in the traditional text where where there are rich people there are also thieves and as such we can see the 23 nature representing guidance/direction-setting in that guidance in such a context is done through practicing pruning, keeping the 'good bits' etc, watch out for, remove the 'weeds' etc

The symmetry present means the same holds for the 55-ness of 30 (expression of 55 through a context of 30) where the difference is in the context and such will skew local properties that make the 55-30 relationship vary with details.

Once the class has been identified you can then let your imagination run wild in that specialist context but the context still keeps your imagination grounded and so close to the facts etc.

 

[elvis]

Hi Elvis,

Claiming 1,2 is a standard evasion of the two number test since that clearly did not arise within your own mental process.

you have no idea do you. You cannot deal with what I wrote and the numbers I gave you and so declare it must be wrong! that is so 'Freudian'! damned if I do, damned if I don't!

arrive early for a meeting - anxious personality
arrive on time for a meeting - compulsive-obsessive
arrive late for a meeting - passive-aggressive



The change from 01 to 02 does not tell you anything about the cause-effect element present in the 01 assessment where the assessment can be verified through consideration of such as how does the CLASS of 01 consistently BEGIN. (44 if you didn't know - single-mindedness begins with actions of attempts to persuade/seduce that are intense and aimed at forcing 'surrender').

The 02 covers the RESPONSE to the influence of 01 where the dramatic nature has elicited a mass response to escape such 'blinding light' and so a need to seek cover, protection, the darkness, to run before the beams of burning light.

02 begins with 24 and its coverage of 'with enlightenment (shock) comes devotion to another/others'. This covers the tentative initial steps of a new beginning/re-beginning (cycle) as it does the 'blind faith' needed in the panic of escape. IOW the advancing yang up 24 is one side of the coin, the other is the backing away from such for those living in, preferring, the dark.

(note the focus in all of the above on LIGHT vs dark and the THEME of this thread covering light in the form of fire and so association with burning, spreading etc etc etc IOW I AM 'on topic' even if you find that difficult to believe - that traditional mindset appears to be blinding you Frank!

 

[dobro p]

Hexagram 37, People the Home, fire inside and wind/wood outside. It could be that the family are looking out through the wooden structure of their home, seeing with the influence and mores of the home as their filter. It also suggests bringing clear awareness to your influence: the noble one’s* ‘words have substance and her actions are consistent.’

I would've thought that li in 37 was the cooking fire. That's not vision though. Wilhelm Baynes says li is 'the light-giving' and that covers a cluster of things - physical fire, physical light, physical seeing, intellectual seeing, intuition, inspiration, revelation. In 37, the easiest fit seems to me to be 'fire', 'hearth fire', 'home fires burning', that sort of thing. In 55, it seems to be the sun at noon, and the meaning of the hexagram as a whole something like 'sun king'. In 36, it seems to be 'knowledge, intelligence, abilities or level of being that you keep under your hat'. Each and every one of the hexes I've mentioned has a 'seeing' aspect to them, though. But you know, *every* hex has a seeing aspect to it lol.

If we could come up with two other functions for the other two 'sister' trigrams, two other functions that are as fundamental to human perception as seeing, I think we might be onto something. That's why I asked you about tui, and that's why I'm wondering about sun. Sun's known as 'the gentle', 'the 'penetrating', 'wood', 'wind'. But what's that in terms of human perception? What is it in human mentation that penetrates slowly and gently? How about learning?

Just thinking out loud here.

 

[elvis]

Dobro, your trying to compress sensory elements into classes of meanings and that wont work as given by such as synaesthesia and so the mixing of senses; to some vision in heard as chords, to others chords are seen as colours etc but the neurology categorisations are constant.

the trigrams stem from CONSTANT nature of the neurology and can represent ANY SENSE. The association of li/fire is an association to a more generic class of meaning covering expansive bounding - IOW a boundary that moves outwards. The immediate/easiest analogy is to fire but it covers ANY sense where the generic classes apply to all. Imagine it as, for example, representative of sonar etc the overall focus on SAMENESS within a boundary expanding into DIFFERENCE covers the conversion of the latter into the former, differences into ash, different perspectives into one ideology etc and so 'guiding light' as it can be 'guiding voice' etc.

The basic communication method for our species nature is EMOTION and it naturally responds to sensory secondary harmonics such as colours, chords etc. Thus the primary emotions, through recursion of fight/flight, CAN be mapped to I Ching trigrams and as such cover emotional responses to any sensory experience. The ancients in the writing of prose did NOT cover 'all possible' combinations, they worked off the most immediate, the most 'obvious' but in doing so shows a partial mindset, a biased perspective of sensations and ignored the filtering system in-between sense and brain, our neurology that categorises.

Thus the basics come down to patterns of blending, bonding, bounding, and binding and their qualifiers using expand/contract. THEN come composites to give us the full set of POSSIBLES open to sensory 'colouring' etc.

For fire the basic emotion is to acceptance. (what is within the boundary is 'same' (ash), what is outside is difference but the boundary also expands, has direction and works to 'spread')

For lake the emotion is joy that is refined into self-reflection, intensity in expression etc. and so on.

To attempt to compress any trigram to a specific sense is not valid - you can use the senses to experience the trigrams but ALL senses apply to each; local biases/preferences then elicit different prose.

 

[cesca]

If we could come up with two other functions for the other two 'sister' trigrams, two other functions that are as fundamental to human perception as seeing, I think we might be onto something. That's why I asked you about tui, and that's why I'm wondering about sun. Sun's known as 'the gentle', 'the 'penetrating', 'wood', 'wind'. But what's that in terms of human perception? What is it in human mentation that penetrates slowly and gently? How about learning?

Just thinking out loud here.

That's what I was playing with in my post a few days ago. Seeing (or clarity, or illumination) is one way of discovering and relating to things. Another way is resonance and adaptation - if you let this process influence you and act upon you, you can meet it within yourself - maybe that's Sun. And if you let yourself become further entangled with it, developing a sensual/erotic relationship with it, that's another way of discovering it, in the shared space or process of enjoyment: Dui.

Maybe those three are a progression of involvement: seeing from the outside, intuiting by resonance, feeling by mutual engagement.

I think they're all modes of learning.

 

[dobro p]

Well, I like 'modes of relating' for the sister trigrams (although I'm not sure about seeing as a mode of relating...I guess it is). But what modality would the brother trigrams take, then? Action?

 

[cesca]

Well, I like 'modes of relating' for the sister trigrams (although I'm not sure about seeing as a mode of relating...I guess it is). But what modality would the brother trigrams take, then? Action?

Hmmm... my immediate thought is Start, Continue and Stop as modes of action. But I'm gonna sleep on that one and check in tomorrow.

 

[elvis]

Hmmm... my immediate thought is Start, Continue and Stop as modes of action. But I'm gonna sleep on that one and check in tomorrow.

produce, distribute, filter, exchange. From these come such as internal distribution that is also labelled to consume. This PROCESS focus is reflected in western economic dynamics and covers the flow of capital as it does the flow of qi in five phase. See comments in the five-phase IC.

 

[dobro p]

Hmmm... my immediate thought is Start, Continue and Stop as modes of action. But I'm gonna sleep on that one and check in tomorrow.

Yes, that's lovely.

Back to the girls: how about adapt to it, cleave to it, enjoy it?

Li would be 'cleave to' of course, which would include the idea of being faithful to.

So, 36 would be more a matter of 'cleaving to the darkness (remaining out of the light)' than a way of seeing something, for instance.

But if that's the case, then it's strange that 17 doesn't have li in it.

 

[dobro p]

If the thunder trigram is 'starting':

* 3 - beginning - 'starting continues' (it doesn't develop yet, because it's just beginning)

* 17 - following - 'starting enjoys' (that's why it follows)

* 21 - biting through - 'starting cleaves to' (cleaves to justice?)

* 24 - returning - 'starting brings forth' (new year)

* 25 - without entanglement - 'starting creates' (I think of 25 as inspired spontaneity)

* 27 - jaws - 'starting stops' (lower jaw, upper jaw)

* 42 - increase - 'starting adapts' (?)

* 51 - thundershock - 'starting startles'