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Blog post: Leaping in the abyss

moss elk

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Hexagram one, the Creative, is not to do with ability - it's the primal power so all the lines concern that primal power.

And what, pray tell, is a human being with primal power flowing through them to such a degree that they are recognizable by others, as something that stands out, called? As Brad put it,
"one that the air seems to crackle around"

A dragon.

How does the power manifest?
As ability.


I am feeling for you right now,
it must be terribly offputting (shocking even!) to know that one understood all the other animal metaphors, but made an exception for this creature.

There are people that will see you, T, as a dragon because of your intellect and wisdom. There are people who see me as a dragon, when I let them.
It's all relative, relative power.
Power is ability.
 
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Trojina

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Fine, Trojina, the next time Yi gives me 1.6 I'll abdicate all responsibility and say it's not me, it's some dragon. :tongue:

I have agreed we do usually take the dragon to be ourselves in line 6. That doesn't make the dragon in the lines people.
I probably can't go any further with this line of thinking where others do not know what I am on about.



And what, pray tell, is a human being with primal power flowing through them to such a degree that they are recognizable by others, as something that stands out, called?

A dragon

I never heard of a person being called a dragon ? There is a TV show called 'Dragon's Den' where very rich people dole out cash or not to entrepreneurs but in general I'm not aware of people being called dragons ? Except old women people don't like used to be called 'dragons' in a kind of sexist way.



How'd you know I was standing back here? :]
:rofl:


I meant beneath the facade of a 'great person' there is generally, if not always, an idiot...within that same person. Do you mean you are great through and through ? No hint of idiot hidden from view ?
 

Liselle

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I have agreed we do usually take the dragon to be ourselves in line 6. That doesn't make the dragon in the lines people.
I probably can't go any further with this line of thinking where others do not know what I am on about.
This does not make logical sense. Line 6 is a line just like the other lines. I thought you were distinguishing line 6 from the other lines - you weren't - apologies.

What about my office example, line 1?
 
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hilary

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The third way is to take it that there were dragons. I mean all the theories you cite are based on not believing in dragons, actual dragons.
Not at all. The constellation one is dragon-agnostic, and the other one requires a dragon sleeping in the lake to be woken up.
If it wasn't a dragon it wouldn't be called a dragon.
Indeed... which makes things interesting in line 3.

(And yes, but that doesn't say you can't be one sometimes. And a scrawny pig at other times, and so on. A scrawny pig is 100% a scrawny pig, that's why it's called a scrawny pig, and it can also be me.)
* when I say I 'won't have' it is a manner of speech rather than a command
...bearing in mind that 1.6 changes to 43...
I never heard of a person being called a dragon ?

Quotation from the Dazhuan, trans. Lynn, on line 1:

'A submerged dragon does not act. What does this mean? The Master says, "This refers to one who has a dragon's virtue yet remains hidden. He neither changes to suit the world nor seeks fulfillment in fame. ...He who is resolute in his unwillingness to be uprooted, this is a submerged dragon."'

And for line 2:

'The Master says, "This refers to one who has a dragon's virtue and has achieved rectitude and centrality. He is trustworthy in ordinary speech and prudent in ordinary conduct..."'

And so on. So the tradition of regarding these dragons as people with dragon-virtues is at least that old.
 

Trojina

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Liselle said
This does not make logical sense. Line 6 is a line just like the other lines.

What about my office example, line 1?



I haven't said line 6 is different to the other lines, you've read it that way.


:???: I'm not saying that in a reading a dragon may not manifest as a person or situation, although I think it will always probably be more than that in hexagram 1.


One minute I'm talking about how I perceive the dragon in hexagram one and the next I'm being told to account for your office reading. :giggle: I have cast hexagram 1 countless times in my life you know. You are misunderstanding thinking that I'm saying a dragon cannot be anything in one's life such as a person/situation in readings. I'm not saying that but that all those things are a manifestation of the Creative which can use anything but not be defined by those things.
 

hilary

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By the way, Harmen has been wrestling with my blog's comments system and trying to make the point that the character translated as 'someone' might just be being used as a loan for 有, 'having' / 'being'. I don't think that makes much odds, though: if 'There is leaping' then someone/something is leaping, and we go right back to the question of who's doing the leaping, and if it's the dragon why didn't they say so, and so on.
 

moss elk

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I never heard of a person being called a dragon ? There is a TV show called 'Dragon's Den' where very rich people dole out cash or not to entrepreneurs
Moss elk: (why can't I erase your name! arg)
Yes! it's simply that then.

Here is an example to understand a tiger vs a dragon.

A thug, hooligan, or general A-hole may very well be a Tiger, but when they encounter a Dragon (let's say a real martial art master, not mma for heavens sake) , they ususally don't even know it, unless they make the mistake of engaging the dragon. There is a degree of power in a dragon that is a truly a 'level above' from a tiger, the tiger may take a nap without the dragon breaking a sweat.

Dragons den....

Ok! so now we have to distinguish between Western and Eastern dragons!

The u.s. version of that show is called
"shark tank' and those people are not dragons, only tigers/wolves.
(side note: The western use of Lion in reference to a person is like Yi's use of Tiger)
Western Dragons and Eastern Dragons have nothing to do with each other.
One is stories based on finding dino fossils and speculating, the other is about a natural phenomenon seen in heaven.

Am I infallible*? heck no!
I'm just the idiot standing behind you. :]
(we were all born beautiful magical idiots)

*see, sorry - trying to fix the formating*
 
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hilary

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Did Trojina say that about Western vs Eastern dragons, or is that a post formatting snafu? In any case, if anyone feels they haven't done enough indignant sputtering lately, here is what Carol Anthony says about line 1. Not everything she says, because this goes on literally for three pages and I can think of things I'd rather do than type it all out, like extract my own teeth with pliers, but anyway...

"Line 1. Hidden dragon. Do not act.

In the broad and general sense, the "hidden dragon" refers to the collective ego, which has presented its institutions and values as "the only source of solutions." This idea serves to divert people from recognizing its dragon nature, and obscures the fact that the Cosmos is the true source of all their needs.

In the particular sense, the "hidden dragon" indicates the presence of demonic influences in the situation being referred to. These influences can be back-of-the-mind thoughts that are generated by ego considerations. They can also come from a projection, spell or poison arrow."

And so on.
 

moss elk

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what Carol Anthony says about line 1.

That's why I don't read Anthony.
She brings so much into her 'tangential-commentary' that is not present or intended in the text.
(this is likely why Dekorne put her commentary in prominence even above the Oracle&Image on his website:
two confused minds think alike, they are like the Katamari Damacy(another under 50 reference) of thinkers: just roll everything up without using discernment to know what doesn't belong)


I see every now and then she comprehends some of the text, but
for the love of waterbaloons! someone should have dropped one on her or asked her to put the doobie down before she started typing.

How presumptive to say line 1 is about demonic influences, when scholars for millenia have said it's about something else.
Yuck, just Yuck.
Indignant sputtering over. :zen:
 
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Liselle

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if anyone feels they haven't done enough indignant sputtering lately
😐

(later - oh wait, you weren't fussing at us for sputtering, you were joining in - sorry...)


I'm not saying that in a reading a dragon may not manifest as a person or situation, although I think it will always probably be more than that in hexagram 1.
I am completely on board with 1 being a powerful force. Back to Moss Elk:
When we are at our best and brightest,
are we not also magical beings?


One minute I'm talking about how I perceive the dragon in hexagram one and the next I'm being told to account for your office reading. :giggle: I have cast hexagram 1 countless times in my life you know. You are misunderstanding thinking that I'm saying a dragon cannot be anything in one's life such as a person/situation in readings. I'm not saying that but that all those things are a manifestation of the Creative which can use anything but not be defined by those things.
Same thing could be said about anything in the I Ching. I got 14.2 yesterday, "A great chariot to carry loads," about my cat's follow-up vet appointment. Same thing: the appointment is a manifestation of a great chariot, but "great chariot" is not defined by vet appointments.
 
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Trojina

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Moss Elk you misquoted me I didn't say this, where did you get it from

Western Dragons and Eastern Dragons have nothing to do with each other.
One is stories based on finding dino fossils and speculating, the other is about a natural phenomenon seen in heaven.
Not me.
 

Trojina

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Quotation from the Dazhuan, trans. Lynn, on line 1:

'A submerged dragon does not act. What does this mean? The Master says, "This refers to one who has a dragon's virtue yet remains hidden. He neither changes to suit the world nor seeks fulfillment in fame. ...He who is resolute in his unwillingness to be uprooted, this is a submerged dragon."'

And for line 2:

'The Master says, "This refers to one who has a dragon's virtue and has achieved rectitude and centrality. He is trustworthy in ordinary speech and prudent in ordinary conduct..."'

And so on. So the tradition of regarding these dragons as people with dragon-virtues is at least that old.

I said I'd never heard of people being referred to as dragons. I haven't. These quotes talk about a person with dragon's virtues which is not the same thing as being the dragon.

Never heard about dragon's virtues before, there doesn't seem to be much said about them. I mean you've shown me these quotes but in general there's little ever said on the forum about dragon's virtues.
 

Trojina

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Did Trojina say that about Western vs Eastern dragons, or is that a post formatting snafu? In any case, if anyone feels they haven't done enough indignant sputtering lately, here is what Carol Anthony says about line 1. Not everything she says, because this goes on literally for three pages and I can think of things I'd rather do than type it all out, like extract my own teeth with pliers, but anyway...

"Line 1. Hidden dragon. Do not act.

In the broad and general sense, the "hidden dragon" refers to the collective ego, which has presented its institutions and values as "the only source of solutions." This idea serves to divert people from recognizing its dragon nature, and obscures the fact that the Cosmos is the true source of all their needs.

In the particular sense, the "hidden dragon" indicates the presence of demonic influences in the situation being referred to. These influences can be back-of-the-mind thoughts that are generated by ego considerations. They can also come from a projection, spell or poison arrow."

And so on.


Bloody Hell

She won't stop until everyone's egos are hung drawn and quartered.
 

moss elk

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Moss Elk you misquoted me I didn't say this, where did you get it from


Not me.
I know, apologies.
I am in my car (parked) and can't seem to fix it at the moment. Unless some lovely admin would care to quickly do it?
please? @Hilary
 

Liselle

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These quotes talk about a person with dragon's virtues which is not the same thing as being the dragon.
Again, same as everything else. If Yi describes someone with 50, it doesn't mean they're literally a cauldron. They're metaphorically a cauldron (in that reading).

If a person can be metaphorical vessel, they can just as easily be a metaphorical dragon.
 

Trojina

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Again, same as everything else. If Yi describes someone with 50, it doesn't mean they're literally a cauldron. They're metaphorically a cauldron (in that reading).


So you are imagining I don't know this to the point where you need to explain to me that a cauldron isn't always literally a cauldron ? I've probably written enough responses on 50 here to show I have just about grasped that. I mean really ? You actually think I don't know this ?

You haven't understood what I've meant and I can't explain it more than I have but really it isn't that one cannot identify with the dragon/vessel whatever and I've said that.

I'm tired of going over this point...I mean really it's insulting to think you think I don't even know that. You have to try to imagine I was saying something beyond that or trying to, it's not that easy to express but if one more person tells me there can be a metaphor as well as the actual I will scream....
 
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Trojina

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As I've said often in readings one can identify with the dragon of course, I've said that so many times now.

That doesn't mean the dragon as written of in the lines INDEPENDENTLY of readings is a metaphor for a person. It really doesn't.

Read Hilary's blog again. She doesn't know who is leaping in line 4 - that is just looking at the line itself separate from any reading she doesn't know who is leaping.

It's like you can't see that you can look at the I Ching just as itself without your readings in it.


Without readings about offices, cats or anything else, in the lines themselves, separate from readings, I don't think the dragon is a metaphor for a person.

So please just try to understand I am not saying in readings cauldron's dragon's and wotnot cannot be metaphors in your situation in your readings. But I am not talking about the dragon in your readings but the dragon in the lines themselves.
 
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Liselle

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Well... independently of readings, none of the imagery is metaphorical. I mean, they wrote the book as an oracle, so they intended it all to be used metaphorically, but the vessel in 50 is a real vessel and 33's piglet is a real piglet as Hilary said above, etc.

But you seemed to be saying in this whole thread that people can't be metaphorical dragons, even in readings. At the very least you never said you weren't talking about readings. (Unless I missed that, in which case I'm sorry.)

Read Hilary's blog again. She doesn't know who is leaping in line 4 - that is just looking at the line itself separate from any reading
I see what you mean, I guess... but isn't it an unexpressed understanding that the text she's writing about was meant to be oracular, even if she's not discussing a reading example? The whole point of dissecting the text is then to use what is learned in readings. (Probably not saying this right.)
 
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hilary

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😐

(later - oh wait, you weren't fussing at us for sputtering, you were joining in - sorry...)
Yes, of course, sorry for being misinterpretable.
Never heard about dragon's virtues before, there doesn't seem to be much said about them. I mean you've shown ethese quotes but in general there's little ever said on the forum about dragon's virtues.
True... the Dazhuan doesn't get much of a look in in general. But it's worth reading anyway. (Wilhelm, Book II.) The received wisdom is that the 'Master' in those passages is Confucius, but I prefer Karcher's idea that these are records of readings by a master diviner. That makes them maybe a bit less universal, but more alive.
Bloody Hell

She won't stop until everyone's egos are hung drawn and quartered.
True. But it has the advantage that once you've read one line interpretation, you can more or less guess what the rest will be about.
the dragon as written of in the lines INDEPENDENTLY of readings
Ah. Hm. Do hexagrams and their images mean things independently of readings? Discuss.
 

Liselle

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Ah. Hm. Do hexagrams and their images mean things independently of readings? Discuss.
I just did.

🎶 A-post-crossing we will go, a-post-crossing we will go... High ho, the derry-o, a-post-crossing we will go... 🎶
 

Trojina

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At the very least you never said you weren't talking about readings. (Unless I missed that, in which case I'm sorry.)


I thought I'd made it clear.

Ah. Hm. Do hexagrams and their images mean things independently of readings? Discuss.

Of course they do !

Discuss ? No that would be appalling as I'm not enjoying this but feel free to talk amongst yourselves. If they didn't exist independently of readings you wouldn't be able to do readings !
 

rosada

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Years ago while visiting my grandson Jax who was about a year old and still crawling. I took him to the local park to crawl about in the grassy field. While we were there another grandmother showed up with her grand child who was about the same age but her kid could stand up and even dance. Jax was fascinated and crawled over for a closer look. He went right up to this strange creature and stared for the longest time. Then he reached out and patted her shoes! Shortly thereafter it was time to head home. When we got inside the house he immediately wriggled out of my arms and scooted over to the coffee table, pulled himself up on his feet and began walking! I of course immediately went to the IC for a comment - and as so often happens when you're asking about something of real importance to you - I got the perfect response: 1.2.

And that's how I came to recognize "Dragon appearing in the field. It furthers one to see the great man," as meaning it's useful when you are creating to have a role model.

Interesting too, isn't it, that 1.2 changes to 13. Fellowship in The Wild? As if to say that these role models can lead us to connecting with all these people and experiences we could never have conceived of on our own. Creativity requires cross pollination!
 
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Liselle

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That really ought to be anthologized in a book of adorable baby stories. ❤️
 

rosada

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Thinking about if I'd ever known any person called a dragon, I googled "Dragon Lady" and got "A mysterious glamorous sexual powerful woman. Cruel if she does not get her way." Could those words not also be used to describe The Creative?

Then thinking about the expression, "May The Force be with you" and howThe Force could be another term for The Creative. The idea that the Force is something that can be with a person or not be with a person, that is, that it is something separate could help resolve the debate as to whether "Dragon appearing in the field" can be an actual person. Perhaps one should read it as meaning not so much the person as the energy that person is channeling.
 

Trojina

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I’ve been having another look at the mysterious fourth line of Hexagram 1, Creative Force:


A story of dragons​


This line is generally understood to be part of the story that begins in line 1, with the dragon still asleep underwater,


and culminates in line 5 with the dragon in full flight,


Then the dragon overreaches in line 6, and all six dragons take flight without a leader when all six lines are changing.

There are two ways of understanding the dragon. The more widely-accepted view is that this is the Azure Dragon asterism: a giant group of constellations that begins to rise above the horizon at the beginning of spring, and is in full view at the height of the year.

So the dragon is first sleeping below the horizon, and hence beneath the waters that were thought to surround the habitable world –


Then the first star of its horn appears just over the fields at nightfall, and it’s time to work together (zhi 13) and prepare for the growing season –


And then (after line 3, which is about the noble one instead of the dragon), comes:


By April, the dragon’s horn and neck are clearly visible above the horizon, and the rest of its body is coming into view. It’s arranged almost vertically, and so appears to be ‘leaping’ straight up from the watery abyss below the world.

S.J. Marshall has another take, and though he offers it as an alternative to the star-dragon, I see no reason why the two shouldn’t co-exist. He describes how dragons slept in pools in the mountains over winter, until, at the first sign of clouds gathering in spring, the people rushed to the pool to wake them with offerings, noise and aggravations. The rain would only fall once the dragon took flight. So at line 4, there’s a glimpse of something rising from the pool to the clouds – and when it reaches them, in line 5, we’ll have rain.

‘Someone’?​


The odd thing – or at least, I find it odd – is that this line doesn’t mention dragons. Lines 1,2,5 and 6 straightforwardly name the dragon, but not line 4. Someone is leaping, or maybe there’s leaping. How come?

Marshall’s story of the dragon in the mountain pool might explain it:


A mostly-invisible, barely-glimpsed dragon would create this kind of uncertainty.

Here’s another possibility, though. If you look through the Songs (the Shijing) for ‘leaping in the abyss’, you find Song 239, celebrating the joys of a prosperous country with a good prince. Among its signs of prosperity and harmony:


The ‘leaping’ and ‘deep’ are the same words as in 1.4. Fish leap in the abyss, too.

Leaping carp​


A Chinese folktale tells how, once a year in the third month of spring, the carp swim up the Yellow River to the foot of the mountains, where there is a waterfall called Dragon Gate. If they can leap the falls, they will be transformed into a dragon – and when the first fish makes the leap, the rains come. So we have…

  • leaping from the pool,
  • the possibility of attaining a whole new level of being
  • at roughly the same time of year that the dragon constellation rises vertically from the horizon,
  • becoming a dragon,
  • and bringing rain.

(For more detail, see these two Wikipedia articles. And a little way down this page, you’ll find a lovely video of the story.)

More about the leap…​


The carp’s leap is said to represent a sudden rise in social status, especially from passing the imperial examination. (Work hard in school, and you’ll get on in life!) The Yi is older than the imperial examination, of course, and has more to say with this line, but who’s to say how long carp have been attempting the dragon gate?

The leaping carp is moving up into a higher realm, much as the fourth line moves up a level into the upper trigram. This is the original ‘line 4 moment’: going from theory to practice, testing your strength and exploring the possibilities – though you’re not quite sure yet what they are.

A natural and traditional view is that the recipient of this hexagram should imagine themselves as the dragon, and that at line 4 they might move out into public life. Or, equally, they might not: there is hesitancy, and the wise querent will pay attention to right timing. The Wenyan (the seventh Wing) says,

Ah. Hm. Do hexagrams and their images mean things independently of readings? Discuss.


You commonly discuss hexagrams and their images in your blogs independently of readings....as in this one see above and in most others.

In most blogs you start by talking about the hexagram and it's images without readings like here

The story of Shock | I Ching with Clarity (onlineclarity.co.uk)

So in answer to your question, yes you do it all the time in pretty much every blog post. I'm puzzled as to why you'd ask given it's something you do all the time.

If one weren't able to discuss hexagrams and their images independently of readings (and I haven't been able to on this thread) then they would have no meanings, there would be no base line. If you can't ever talk about the dragon in line 2 without it applying to someone's reading then you can't explore the image itself and one needs to be free to do that. It would be pretty ghastly if you weren't free to do that and every word or thought you uttered about an image had to tied down by someone's reading.
 
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Trojina

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How about this? :]
It's, oddly, satisfying.
That was a happy dance at the start.



But why would anyone want to take a crab out if it's natural environment to torment it with potato ? They should put the poor creature back where it belongs surely ?
 

hilary

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@rosada , please add that one to WikiWing!
You commonly discuss hexagrams and their images in your blogs independently of readings....as in this one see above and in most others.

In most blogs you start by talking about the hexagram and it's images without readings like here

The story of Shock | I Ching with Clarity (onlineclarity.co.uk)

So in answer to your question, yes you do it all the time in pretty much every blog post. I'm puzzled as to why you'd ask given it's something you do all the time.
True. But should I - is this a real thing? Yi speaks and means things in readings. Each time it responds with 1.2, it means something subtly different. All those meanings have some commonality, and so I can write blog posts about that, but how much real existence do those ideas have?

There's something challenging and double-take-inducing along these lines in the Dazhuan. I'll see if I can find it.
 

hilary

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Here it is - Part I, chapter 10:

"Yi has no thought, no action. It is inert and motionless, but when activated it penetrates every cause under heaven."
 

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