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Brothers and their conflicts

martinus

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The other day I complained to my brother X about our brother Y.
I.e. about his behaviour towards me and my family. He has a strong dislike
of my wife, he ignores our children (totally), never says a word to anyone,
clearly demonstrates his disinterest- etc.
Actually I think he is a perfect example of narcissism . And in that talk (on
the phone) I called Y an emotional cripple. Now, the problem is: X and Y are
on good terms, X and me - (relatively) good terms too.
I wondered: Should I send X a mail, explaining him my view on an "objective"
level - i.e. avoiding "subjective" aggressive emotions.
I asked the I Ching. I got 43/6 leading to 1.
My urge to write and send that latter is very strong - but the advice given seems
to tell me: "Better don't" - you'll be the one who would finally get hurt. Right?
 

Trojina

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My urge to write and send that latter is very strong - but the advice given seems
to tell me: "Better don't" - you'll be the one who would finally get hurt. Right?
No Martinus, wrong :) The whole point of the line is that it is unfortunate not to speak out, not to express oneself. It says

'Not crying out.
In the end, pitfall.'

That is not saying 'better don't' it's saying if you don't call out/express yourself then there's pitfall.

You want your words to be a clear and true statement of your perception of the situation. You do not want with this line to be stuffing all your feelings back inside.

In 43 one has something to say. One does not 'resort to arms' or violence but one does speak out. Sometimes I think 43 is called 'Separating' and I think that is because once one speaks out from one's truth one has made a clear declaration of who one is and when one has done that some, especially those who have continued to be abusive as they think we will never speak out, will fall away.


Do speak out! That is what this line says.

My urge to write and send that latter is very strong
...and Yi says not sending a letter, not crying out is a pitfall so follow your urge. Focus on being clear and truthful.
 

martinus

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No Martinus, wrong :) The whole point of the line is that it is unfortunate not to speak out, not to express oneself. It says

'Not crying out.
In the end, pitfall.'

That is not saying 'better don't' it's saying if you don't call out/express yourself then there's pitfall.

You want your words to be a clear and true statement of your perception of the situation. You do not want with this line to be stuffing all your feelings back inside.

In 43 one has something to say. One does not 'resort to arms' or violence but one does speak out. Sometimes I think 43 is called 'Separating' and I think that is because once one speaks out from one's truth one has made a clear declaration of who one is and when one has done that some, especially those who have continued to be abusive as they think we will never speak out, will fall away.


Do speak out! That is what this line says.


...and Yi says not sending a letter, not crying out is a pitfall so follow your urge. Focus on being clear and truthful.
 

martinus

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Trojina!
Good God - this is so clear !
Glad that I posted my problem here...Thanks a lot.
I'll follow your / the I Ching's advice.:)
 

Daeluin

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I wondered: Should I send X a mail, explaining him my view on an "objective"
level - i.e. avoiding "subjective" aggressive emotions.
I asked the I Ching. I got 43/6 leading to 1.

I wonder if this one is so straightforward as might be thought.

The idea here is of the 5 yang lines pushing out the yin line at the top. There is some element of invasion that threatens our contentment and completion, represented by the 5 yang lines. Our work is nearly complete, and we need to change the final yin line to yang.

So this yin line represents some element that is to be dealt with in order to ward off the intrusion.

Meanwhile, we want to avoid the sort of capitulation where the dynamic flips over and becomes more like with hexagram 44 line 1, allowing that yin element to become a force of erosion rather than a force of annoyance.

In dealing with the yin line at the top however we are able to generally focus on completing and steering clear of outside forces to prevent them from having power.

So how to make sense of the line statement?

Liu Yiming, tl Cleary, The Taoist I Ching:
No call; in the end there is misfortune.

At the end of parting, the aggregate of mundanity has receded, leaving only the single mundanity of the discriminatory consciousness as yet undissolved. At that time it should be parted with, and its force then must pass away. When the celestial energy makes one more advance, the mundane energy will then dissolve; therefore there is "no call; in the end there is misfortune." "No call" of mundane energy is none other than the "call of truth" of celestial energy. The "final misfortune" of mundane energy is the ultimate fortune of celestial energy. This is parting in which the celestial energy becomes pure and complete, while mundane energy vanishes entirely.

Lynn translates this as: As no cry will do here, it will end in misfortune. With Wang Bi commentary: Top Yin is located at the very end of Resolution and represents a petty man at the top. As the Dao of the noble man grows strong here, this one is rejected by all the others. Thus his situation is not something that a cry can prolong.

And Harrington's tl of Cheng Yi's commentary: ... How can this be? Response: the Solve hexagram refers to the moment when the way of small people is disappearing and vanishing. In dissolving or driving out the way of small people, how could it be necessary to exahust them or to put them all to death? If they are made to alter and reform, the way of small people will vanish. The vanishing of their way is their misfortune.

So we can see in all three commentaries there is a perspective of the proper/true replacing the small/false.

We can see that the small/false is represented by brother Y, and more importantly your own annoyance of his actions. The answer as I see it is for you to be the bigger person and not cater to small matters.

Going forward in calling out simply expresses your own small response to brother Y's small way of being. It is bound to only stir up more contention. Not calling out leads to the misfortune of not being able to have your frustrations heard, but instead it leads to the consolidation of your place within your family, putting out what does not serve while embracing and unifying with that which you do care for.
 

Trojina

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We can see that the small/false is represented by brother Y, and more importantly your own annoyance of his actions. The answer as I see it is for you to be the bigger person and not cater to small matters.
There are many ways for Yi to say 'let it go' and this really isn't one of them.

All the commentaries you have quoted just obscure the meaning, indeed they bury it in abstraction.

We can see that the small/false is represented by brother Y, and more importantly your own annoyance of his actions. The answer as I see it is for you to be the bigger person and not cater to small matters.

Going forward in calling out simply expresses your own small response to brother Y's small way of being. It is bound to only stir up more contention. Not calling out leads to the misfortune of not being able to have your frustrations heard, but instead it leads to the consolidation of your place within your family, putting out what does not serve while embracing and unifying with that which you do care for.
So you think that he should just go on suffering because he is a meant to be 'the bigger person'? How far can you take that? That someone should go on suffering that kind of abuse endlessly so that they will be the bigger person? It really is the very opposite of what the reading is saying anyway and it looks like you have to go to great lengths of abstraction to get there.
 
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Daeluin

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It really is the very opposite of what the reading is saying anyway and it looks like you have to go to great lengths of abstraction to get there.
I hear this is how you see it, but if I was going through great lengths of abstraction to get here, then the 3 other commentaries would surely have the straight forward answer, and yet they do not.

It is due to the nature of a yin line in the top position that there is a proclivity in many situations for a desire for petty battling to arise, especially in this case at the moment where yang is nearly complete.

My only abstraction is in tying what is petty and small here to OP's desire to give said frustrations a bigger voice, to open things up and go into them more. But it is not much of a stretch, esp given Liu Yiming's commentary.

Tuck Chang, for example, frames the statement like so: (The subject is trapped in a state of) Nil Howling (i.e. howling with no response), in the end there is misfortune.

Line 6 is the only feminine line remaining after the masculine has approached to position 5. It is useless to call for help (from line 3), or cry for forgiveness (from line 4), or shout with menace (to line 5). It will end with misfortune as the feminine is destined to be subdued, and the villain who obstinately adheres to evil is doomed to be defeated.

The upper trigram Dui is the mouth, which here refers to a cry; line 6 will change to the masculine after the feminine is bsubdued and the mouth will disappear.

Now, we could say that the evil is represented by brother Y, and yet brother Y isn't the focus of OP's question. Whether or not to proceed with a mail to brother X in a certain fashion is. So when looking for our villain it would appear to be the "discriminatory consciousness", and everything fits.

OP is even quite hesitant at first to go forward with this, presumably the reason it merited a question to the Yi.

Given that some time has passed and OP has presumably proceeded to vent, perhaps we will soon learn whether:
  • Crying out to the brother met with clearing the air and a vanquishing of the evil.
  • Crying out to the brother met with futility and ultimately he needed to let go of the issue and move forward.
In any case my perspective is hardly without precedent.
 

Trojina

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Given that some time has passed and OP has presumably proceeded to vent, perhaps we will soon learn whether:
  • Crying out to the brother met with clearing the air and a vanquishing of the evil.
  • Crying out to the brother met with futility and ultimately he needed to let go of the issue and move forward.
The word 'vent' that you use here carries a negative connotation of this being merely an outpouring of fractiousness where it is clearly much more more than that. To call the proposed communication 'venting' trivialises the purpose of writing. This is something that has gone on for a very long time and is a serious matter. Moreover Martinus speaks out not only on his own behalf but that of his wife and children.

I.e. about his behaviour towards me and my family. He has a strong dislike
of my wife, he ignores our children (totally), never says a word to anyone,
clearly demonstrates his disinterest- etc.
Also Martinus is writing to the brother he gets on with about the other brother, he's not directly writing to the brother who shows dislike for his wife and indifference to his children.

I didn't take it the intent was to 'clear the air' by writing nor even 'vanquish the evil' but more to simply express the reality of his situation as he feels it to the brother he gets on with about the one who treats his family poorly. Sometimes things cannot be cleared up and hurt cannot be vanquished and made good and one needs to remove oneself from the person who causes it. It does no one any good (not even the perpetrator) to simply suffer unpleasant behaviour for years on end simply because there is a blood bond

  • Crying out to the brother met with futility and ultimately he needed to let go of the issue and move forward.
I find that quite a trivialisation of the seriousness and the suffering this family situation causes. How do you know this is something to 'let go of'? It hardly sounds like it and if one's brother openly expresses dislike for one's wife what exactly would 'move forward' be in your eyes?

All that's an aside from the actual reading of course. He could indeed have had a reading that said 'Martinus, let it go, minimise it, don't pay it attention'. So many answers may have led him to that such as 6.1 perhaps or 40 or any number of answers. Instead he got a line that very clearly says that not revealing oneself is a pitfall.

You gathered a few commentaries, none of which I personally have much time for. The 'Taoist I Ching' is I think the only Yi book I have ever given away. There's the clarity of the words of the Yi itself compared to this

At the end of parting, the aggregate of mundanity has receded, leaving only the single mundanity of the discriminatory consciousness as yet undissolved. At that time it should be parted with, and its force then must pass away. When the celestial energy makes one more advance, the mundane energy will then dissolve; therefore there is "no call; in the end there is misfortune." "No call" of mundane energy is none other than the "call of truth" of celestial energy. The "final misfortune" of mundane energy is the ultimate fortune of celestial energy. This is parting in which the celestial energy becomes pure and complete, while mundane energy vanishes entirely.
.......is startling. So let's translate this into readable English somehow. Hmmm '...the aggregate of mundanity has receded, leaving only the single mundanity of the discriminatory consciousness as yet undissolved'. Dear me.. so by 'mundanity' I think he refers to yin. I wouldn't say yin was mundane, it's a poor word choice IMO. Actually this is so convoluted it bears no resemblance to what the line actually says at all and it certainly isn't a basis for making this

'Not crying out.
In the end, pitfall.'


...mean 'don't say anything...just move on'.

I think you're ignoring the I Ching and using convoluted commentary/line theory to make the line mean the very opposite of what it means.
 

my_key

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I wondered: Should I send X a mail, explaining him my view on an "objective"
level - i.e. avoiding "subjective" aggressive emotions.
I asked the I Ching. I got 43/6 leading to 1.
43<>1
43.6 not only changes to 1 but the nuclear of 43 is 1. So a double exposure to a call towards 'being strong' both in the mundane world (where we all exist) and in the deeper invisible realms.

Yi advocates through 43 to extend ones strength to all below and that by doing so ones own power and virtue will increase. Thereby keeping away harm. It holds opportunity to show your real everlasting strength. Writing objectively 'a mail, explaining him my view' looks to create a good embodiment of the noble one.

43.6 - Not communicating will lead only to harmful isolation. Maybe there is a even subversive (passive aggressive) arrogance attempting to make a play in not sending a letter. Deciding to send a letter (mail) gives a path towards parting from this situation from an assertive harm-free position. A case of I care about me and I care about him.

... or it might mean nothing at all like this.

Good Luck
 
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Daeluin

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I find that quite a trivialisation of the seriousness and the suffering this family situation causes. How do you know this is something to 'let go of'? It hardly sounds like it and if one's brother openly expresses dislike for one's wife what exactly would 'move forward' be in your eyes?
What serious suffering? The OP would perhaps like the brother to care, but the brother does not. We cannot force others to like and care about our lives and our families. Other than that OP doesn't suggest anything that is causing suffering.

The brother's behavior is described as a perfect example of narcissism. Generally in dealing with narcissism the person isn't going to change, and it is advised to not get sucked into investing in the issue.


Regarding explaining to the other brother, it has already been tried once, and did not seem to achieve results. The question is about trying again, more objectively, implying that the initial conversation was emotional. OP is trying to convey a sentiment to his brother that already his brother had trouble with.

As for why the Yi didn't give another hexagram, we can see from the thread title that this is a situation regarding brothers and their conflicts, and from Tuck Chang's commentary that the line is attempting to cry out to its various brothers. It seems perfectly suitable to me.

@Trojina you conveniently ignore Tuck Chang's interpretation, and suggest that all four of these commentaries are not worth your time, but that you know better than them. Good for you. I'm happy that you have a different opinion, and I've done what I can to back mine up. My interest is in offering my perspective to help OP, not to help you understand what you are not interested in.
 

Trojina

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What serious suffering? The OP would perhaps like the brother to care, but the brother does not. We cannot force others to like and care about our lives and our families. Other than that OP doesn't suggest anything that is causing suffering.
On reading the first post from Martinus, and knowing something, a little bit of him from his other threads here, I do see suffering. Surely one would be speaking from some lofty realm of abstraction if one cannot see why this brother's behaviour, long term, would cause Martinus suffering. However what you have said here does support my view that you made the answer fit your opinion that he should just 'move on'.

The brother's behavior is described as a perfect example of narcissism. Generally in dealing with narcissism the person isn't going to change, and it is advised to not get sucked into investing in the issue.
It is also advised to get clear of the narcissist if they are affecting your life adversely. And let's be clear the reading did not, by any stretch of the imagination, say 'move on'. Indeed 'move on' seems a dismissive response with no connection to the reading at all.

I mean you are fully entitled to give your view of the reading of course, I don't aim to hinder that, but I do think you have entirely skipped the answer in favour of your own viewpoint even to the point of denying the suffering of the querent.
@Trojina you conveniently ignore Tuck Chang's interpretation, and suggest that all four of these commentaries are not worth your time, but that you know better than them. Good for you. I'm happy that you have a different opinion, and I've done what I can to back mine up. My interest is in offering my perspective to help OP, not to help you understand what you are not interested in.
Actually Tuck Chang hasn't given an interpretation on this person's situation you just quoted a chunk of his commentary which is not the same thing.

The quote is

Line 6 is the only feminine line remaining after the masculine has approached to position 5. It is useless to call for help (from line 3), or cry for forgiveness (from line 4), or shout with menace (to line 5). It will end with misfortune as the feminine is destined to be subdued, and the villain who obstinately adheres to evil is doomed to be defeated.

The upper trigram Dui is the mouth, which here refers to a cry; line 6 will change to the masculine after the feminine is bsubdued and the mouth will disappear.
Hmm well there's that thing Mary was discussing in the Exploring Divination thread about misogyny in commentary with all this stuff about the feminine having to be subdued. I mean yes he is talking about yin lines not actual women but it's a very outdated angle IMO The above doesn't make very much sense as a response to this query and of course there's no disrespect to the author intended by me saying that since it's taken from a wider context and was not written to apply to this specific reading at all.
 
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Daeluin

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It is also advised to get clear of the narcissist if they are affecting your life adversely.
Indeed.
And let's be clear the reading did not, by any stretch of the imagination, say 'move on'. Indeed 'move on' seems a dismissive response with no connection to the reading at all.

I mean you are fully entitled to give your view of the reading of course, I don't aim to hinder that, but I do think you have entirely skipped the answer in favour of your own viewpoint even to the point of denying the suffering of the querent.
If the crying out is due to a smallness (Harrington/Cheng Yi), or mundanity of the discriminatory consciousness (Cleary/Yiming) on the part of the OP, then indeed parting with it and moving on is what these commentaries and my own experience of the hexagram is called for.

In particular we are being advised to push through and move away from the petty discriminations that cannot be heard and have no place, despite their reality.

Actually Tuck Chang hasn't given an interpretation on this person's situation you just quoted a chunk of his commentary which is not the same thing.
Tuck describes quite literally the futility of crying out at this point, which is literally what the question is about.
Hmm well there's that thing Mary was discussing in the Exploring Divination thread about misogyny in commentary with all this stuff about the feminine having to be subdued. I mean yes he is talking about yin lines not actual women but it's a very outdated angle IMO The above doesn't make very much sense as a response to this query and of course there's no disrespect to the author intended by me saying that since it's taken from a wider context and was not written to apply to this specific reading at all.
Indeed, and if you read my reply in that thread, it can be seen that I explain this in detail. And this reply further explores the concept.

The patriarchal culture and its treatment of women as yin can be seen within the words of the Yi (and various commentaries), and too can be seen a perspective of active yin that leads to conditioning. These are distinct matters and seeing them as such allows for the misogynistic lens to be removed.

And indeed in this case the active yin at the top is precisely what leads to the arising of the mundanity of the discriminatory consciousness that has no home and must be parted from.

Hexagram 43 relates to the zodiac sign of Taurus, and our thread here comes right after a partial solar eclipse with the Sun and Moon in Taurus.

Taurus is known for being incredibly stubborn, and that is the energy we have been navigating. The Taurus Scorpio axis deals quite a bit with the fear of letting go and the stubbornness we navigate on our journey to do so. In Scorpio's case we are dealing with hexagram 23, where there is impending loss of the 1 remaining yang and a desire to cling to it like a life raft, including all manner of lashing out and piercing through, and yet it is when these natives surrender to the inevitability of loss that they find themselves reborn as the phoenix and become able to truly able to use their powers without fear or holding a double standard against others.

And for Taurus there is more of an attachment to the material / mundane world and aversion to letting go of attachment to things. And yet as this hexagram reveals, it is when we are able to set down our desires for accumulation and holding on to things - despite the stubborn aversion to doing so - that we are able to step into a space of completion and rise above the mundane by walking a more noble path.

You may easily see that with this perhaps I paint yet another picture of bias layered over my others. And yet to me it could not be more clear that all of these ideas are supporting the notion of the yin line at the top of all the yangs acting as a stimulus for that which does not serve and needs to be parted from.
 

my_key

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It's been interesting reading this thread however I do see what could be smoke and mirrors and even some cherry picking of lengthy tracts of commentary from not so popular works. Some I have taken a look at, not to say that Daeluin is wrong but just to offer other words taken from the same authors that for me portray an interpretation I am comfortable aligning with. Also I have a vested interest in seeing how these might align with the interpretation I have already offered ( post no 9)

One place of real difference is contained in the comment.

We can see that the small/false is represented by brother Y,

I see nothing of the sort. What is small/false is something else.

Cleary: Taoist I Ching
Speaking of 43 (p166) which he names as Parting:
The qualities of the hexagram are strength and harmony: Harmoniously acting with strength, strong but not violent...

Speaking of 43.6 (p169):
"No call; in the end there is misfortune." So in the path of parting from mundanity, it will not do to be too adamant or too yielding; one must have flexibility within firmness, and firmness within flexibility, parting gradually, advancing a portion of celestial energy, repelling a portion of mundanity, so that celestial energy advances to wholeness and mundanity spontaneously sublimates.
Should I send the email?
Cleary's simple message could be " Always act with clear intentions, from a mid-point between firmness and flexibility. When there is no call made to support your position then things will end in misfortune."

Tuck Chang: The I Ching
Speaking of 43 (p496) which he names as Guai 'to get rid of'. He also says that it is something that is granted to aid a situation:

Speaking of 43.6 (p505):

(The subject is trapped in a state of) nil howling (i.e. howling that won't last long, in the end misfortune.

Commentary on the image - The misfortune of nil howling, (signifying) it won't last long

Enlightenment through six six: It is useless to cry; evil powers are destined to be toppled. and it is ominous for one who remains evil.
Should I send the email?
Tuck's simple message could be " Whether you send it or not you will be granted new circumstances that bring about a change to what is happening between you and your brother"

... of course there could be a myriad of other interpretations too.

Good Luck
 

martinus

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Well, a big "thanks" to everybody's comment here. Most interesting, even fascinating.
Actually I immediately followed Trojina's posting, I sent a mail to my "X"-brother - and I'm glad I did so. He answered and proved to be very understanding, suggested we should have a talk about all this.
Thx to everybody - and to the I Ching, one more time an immeasurable source of wisdom...!
 
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Daeluin

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I see nothing of the sort. What is small/false is something else.
This is part of a full sentence, which you took one part from and therefore changed the meaning.

We can see that the small/false is represented by brother Y, and more importantly your own annoyance of his actions. The answer as I see it is for you to be the bigger person and not cater to small matters.

So really this is just confusing wording on my part. It is the actions of the brother Y that gave stimulus to OP's annoyance, which is what is small in my interpretation, as the question obviously doesn't involve action in regards to brother Y. Brother Y's influence is what I am referring to here, poorly worded.

In regards to the result, the point of the reading in my interpretation is to push out the mundane concerns and that crying out leads to misfortune, despite it being a natural phenomena that is difficult to avoid. The bit here about misfortune is that the small crying out leads to opening things up, much like 43 flipping around and becoming 44 with yin entering from the bottom. So now "we should have a talk about all this" is the opening up of things further.

Who knows, perhaps that is desirable and OP wants to open the issue up further. The reading from my interpretation suggests that it will lead to misfortune, and this can be seen in the idea of the dynamic of 44 unraveling what has been built up between the brothers thus far and that may not be desirable, especially if it doesn't lead to a solution.

Thus the answer IMO is that not crying out allows whatever peace that did exist between the brothers to remain, despite the annoyance and lack of support and caring of brother Y. However if it is desired for the issue to be pressed and closeness between the brothers being disrupted is an acceptable outcome then by all means proceed.
 

moss elk

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43.6 means:
He who does not cry out will suffer.

One poster doesn't understand the line.
 

Trojina

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Indeed, and if you read my reply in that thread, it can be seen that I explain this in detail. And this reply further explores the concept.

The patriarchal culture and its treatment of women as yin can be seen within the words of the Yi (and various commentaries), and too can be seen a perspective of active yin that leads to conditioning. These are distinct matters and seeing them as such allows for the misogynistic lens to be removed.

And indeed in this case the active yin at the top is precisely what leads to the arising of the mundanity of the discriminatory consciousness that has no home and must be parted from.
So let's take this last rather complicated sentence apart to see what it says really. I think it says that yin when 'active' ie in a change line, leads to a discriminatory consciousness -which would be a consciousness that is able to discriminate which is scarcely a bad thing especially in 43 which asks us to do precisely that, to stand up, to discriminate, to be clear what we stand for. There is no good reason whatsoever to maintain that yin is, when active, using mundane 'discriminatory consciousness'.

Now what exactly one might ask would 'mundane discriminatory consciousness' be if we were talking in plain English ? I would say mundane powers of discrimination, that is to discern the difference between apples and bananas in the supermarket is a pretty necessary function and not at all especially a yin thing nor a 'bad' yin thing. The whole of 43 is about speaking out and the danger in the last line is when one fails to do that.

And what you have done here is on the one hand talk about commentaries being patriarchal and then simply gone ahead and used the patriarchal commentary as a basis for your interpretation.

The patriarchal culture and its treatment of women as yin can be seen within the words of the Yi (and various commentaries), and too can be seen a perspective of active yin that leads to conditioning. These are distinct matters and seeing them as such allows for the misogynistic lens to be removed.
And yet you go full on with an interpretation where you maintain a yin change line shows petty discriminatory consciousness. And so in your case rather than the 'misogynistic lens' being removed you have actually made full use of it to garner an interpretation to the very opposite effect of the words of the line.


And there is no sexism or patriarchy in the 'words of the Yi' as you say there is, that is only in the commentaries such as you have used, chosen specifically, to use to support your interpretation. It's not as if using the word 'wife' or referring to the 'wife in the home' is itself sexist. I really do not think the actual words of the Yi are sexist at all nor tinged with misogyny because it really is not misogynistic for there to be a difference in roles between the husband and wife especially in ancient times. There is no problem with the concept of 'wife' and if we try to erase that it effectively wipes out all wives and so is doubly sexist.
 
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Daeluin

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He who does not cry out will suffer.
This one sentence you have here represents two very separate components of a line statement.

"Not Calling Out" is the oracle, the shici. "Misfortune" is the duanci, the prognostication.

Seen as two separate components, they are not necessarily aligned like you would suggest by combinging them into one sentence. The oracle all on its own generally gives the advice for what is to be done. Here what is to be done is to not call out. The prognostication here gives the verdict of the likely outcome of the hexagram, here being misfortune, because due to the proclivity of the line it is very difficult to not call out.

They are not meant to be read as one sentence and one combined and connected idea. Each component speaks according to its own pattern. Advice. Indication. Likely outcome.

This is why some translations directly take the "not calling out" to be advice saying to not call out, and misfortune to be what comes of calling out.
 

moss elk

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I have personal experience multiple times with this line, most recently two weeks ago.

A situation arose where I could have stayed silent about a matter.
Bur doing so had the potential to bring a calamity on me.
So, I spoke out in the king's chamber.

The crying out resulted in immediate support from the king, in ways that surprised me.

I have the utmost confidence in what I am saying.


Please post your personal experience,
If you want the ideas you are putting forth to be considered.
 
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Trojina

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Yes after 40 years or so of consulting Yi I have always found this line to be to do with the dangers of not speaking out/coming out and it doesn't always even have to be to do with speaking. I've had it for things/situations that don't reveal themselves when it would be fortunate if they could/would.
 

Daeluin

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So let's take this last rather complicated sentence apart to see what it says really. I think it says that yin when 'active' ie in a change line, leads to a discriminatory consciousness -which would be a consciousness that is able to discriminate which is scarcely a bad thing especially in 43 which asks us to do precisely that, to stand up, to discriminate. There is no good reason whatsoever to maintain that yin is when active using mundane 'discriminatory consciousness'.

Now what exactly one might ask would 'mundane discriminatory consciousness' be if we were talking in plain English ? I would say mundane powers of discrimination, that is to discern the difference between apples and bananas in the supermarket is a pretty necessary function and not at all especially a yin thing nor a 'bad' yin thing.
Your critical thinking isn't really picking it apart in much detail.

First we have in this case the active yin at the top. That means this sentence refers specifically to hexagram 43 line 6, but you take it to mean any active yin line / changing yin line.

Then you pick apart "discriminatory consciousness" as being a consciousness that discriminates, which is all fine, but the point is not about the discriminatory consciousness but the mundanity that arises within it unnecessarily.

It is like being in meditation and having thoughts about something completely unnecessary to think about pop into one's head. That is the mundanity (mundane things one does not need to concern oneself with) of the discriminating consciousness (which here is used symbolically to distinguish it from the pure spiritual mind that does not need to shape itself into words).

To further explain, the discriminatory consciousness in daoist alchemical symbolism is seen as a tool that indeed has many beneficial uses, but is a servant to the pure spiritual mind. The pure spiritual mind should be the ruler and master, and yet due to the conditioning of the discriminatory mind to constantly be weighing on things it has a proclivity to take over and usurp its master. By following the flow of yin and yang changes within the hexagrams Liu Yiming offers insight into how to navigate the balance.

The whole of 43 is about speaking out and the danger in the last line is when one fails to do that.
The whole of hexagram 43 is about using the strength of yang to eliminate the final element of yin at the top. This is where we disagree.

And what you have done here is on the one hand talk about commentaries being patriarchal and then simply gone ahead and used the patriarchal commentary as a basis for your interpretation.

> The patriarchal culture and its treatment of women as yin can be seen within the words of the Yi (and various commentaries), and too can be seen a perspective of active yin that leads to conditioning. These are distinct matters and seeing them as such allows for the misogynistic lens to be removed.


And yet you go full on with an interpretation where you maintain a yin change line shows petty discriminatory consciousness. What does 'treatment of women as yin' mean? Actual women and men do not equate to yin and yang lines, they are principles, polarised powers that make up the universe.
It would appear to be designed to advise our use of active energy (9) so that it is constructive and restrain it when it is not, and to be cautious about engaging with things that we become invited into (6) unless there can be constructive outcomes. I don't see what is patriarchal about this.

In both cases of active yang and active yin are many situations designed for restraint, or for going forward. And there are situations where there is advice to do one thing despite the hexagram giving a strong proclivity for the other thing to happen regardless. That is the case in hexagram 43 line 6.

This isn't singling out yin as leading to undesirable conditioning / arising of unnecessary mundanity across the board as you would seem to paint my words to say. In many cases active yin is constructive, see 18 line 1. It is here in 43 line 6 that we see an example where it is given advice to restrain itself, and yet the prognostication is still one of misfortune because it is not easy to do - to part from this yin's invitation.

You ask what I mean about 'treatment of women as yin' in my reply to you, but was it not your own reaction to this being done that opened this train of thought?

And there is no sexism or patriarchy in the 'words of the Yi' as you say there is, that is only in the commentaries such as you have used. It's not as if using the word 'wife' or referring to the 'wife in the home' is itself sexist. I really do not think the actual words of the Yi are sexist at all nor tinged with misogyny because it really is not misogynistic for there to be a difference in roles between the husband and wife especially in ancient times.
You are the one who raised this issue due to Tuck Chang's commentary using the phrase "after the feminine is subdued" as a descriptive of the active yin line's influence needing to be subdued.

That is Tuck Chang's word choice, not my own. It sounds like we both agree that it can be worded differently, so what is your point? You are just derailing the topic.
 
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moss elk

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Well, a big "thanks" to everybody's comment here. Most interesting, even fascinating.
Actually I immediately followed Trojina's posting, I sent a mail to my "X"-brother - and I'm glad I did so. He answered and proved to be very understanding, suggested we should have a talk about all this.
Thx to everybody - and to the I Ching, one more time an immeasurable source of wisdom...!

So, the querent followed the correct advice, and a good result naturally followed.

No more proof is needed

One poster does not yet comprehend this line.
 

Daeluin

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Please post your personal experience,
If you want the ideas you are putting forth to be considered.
I have not raised anything against any of the competing perspectives given.

I have only stepped up to defend my perspective against attacks and dismissals.

I am happy for us to have multiple perspectives here, even if they are in opposition to each other. It would appear that you are not content with ideas that you disagree with and are presenting me with an ultimatum.

My stance is fully backed up with 4 different commentaries. These commentaries have been called 'obscure', as they are not the ones conventionally used on these boards. However, they are commentaries by some of the best masters of the Yi throughout history, and their interpretation aligns with each other and my own personal perspective and experience.

I am happy to discuss on the merits of the principles of the lines, as this gives something objective to work with that is rooted in principle.

It would be beyond easy for me to attack any other's experience, for experience is subjective. I am not interested in doing so.

Inviting me to speak from my experience here with this line directly gives a way to attack my perspective without needing to meet me on principled grounds, regardless of what my experience means to me. How at all would my experience of 43 backing up my perspective here be something that gives you pause to consider my more scholarly argument, other than that it is my word?

Fine, please have my word on the matter that in my experience of 43 line 6 this perspective is backed up for me.
 

moss elk

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The evidence is right before your eyes in the follow up post by the OP...

And still you would argue against it.
That is rather silly, isn't it?

The invitation to have you post your personal experience was for you to share your experience. The fact that you refused speaks volumes about your level of insight.

AND you consider it an attack when an idea in your head is challenged?
 

Daeluin

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I've already explained how I see the result fitting my interpretation. I am more than happy to let the matter stand, as I have been, and yet Trojina and you seem to want to debate about it.

What is silly (IMO) is to resort to personal attacks on the matter. (Or to make replies and then delete them.)
 

moss elk

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I've already explained how I see the result fitting my interpretation. I am more than happy to let the matter stand, as I have been, and yet Trojina and you seem to want to debate about it.

What is silly (IMO) is to resort to personal attacks on the matter. (Or to make replies and then delete them.)

Are you able to point to a single personal attack?
 

Daeluin

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And still you would argue against it.
That is rather silly, isn't it?
you are silly

The fact that you refused speaks volumes about your level of insight.
your level of insight is to be questioned

AND you consider it an attack when an idea in your head is challenged?
when your ideas are challenged you consider it an attack
(not true at all btw, this is projection)

Please point to a single personal attack?

This is all personal. Note the "you" in each sentence. It would be nice to stop derailing the topic...
 

Trojina

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.

Your critical thinking isn't really picking it apart in much detail.

First we have in this case the active yin at the top. That means this sentence refers specifically to hexagram 43 line 6, but you take it to mean any active yin line / changing yin line.
I didn't take it to mean any active yin line though it may have sounded like it.

Then you pick apart "discriminatory consciousness" as being a consciousness that discriminates, which is all fine, but the point is not about the discriminatory consciousness but the mundanity that arises within it unnecessarily.

It is like being in meditation and having thoughts about something completely unnecessary to think about pop into one's head. That is the mundanity (mundane things one does not need to concern oneself with) of the discriminating consciousness (which here is used symbolically to distinguish it from the pure spiritual mind that does not need to shape itself into words).
So the idea is yin is 'mundane' and yang is 'celestial'. Oh if only this didn't remind me of mother doing the ironing (mundane) whilst father writes his theory of evolution in his study (celestial). :rolleyes: Also perhaps check out what the word 'mundane' means because it really does not mean 'things one does not need to concern oneself with' at all. At least it would only mean that in some contexts. Mundane means of the this earth, everyday things, practical here and now matters. Who, apart from a disembodied being, could possibly say these were things one 'need not concern oneself with'.

And this idea of the 'pure spiritual mind' (yang) falls into the trap of duality, of separating the body so completely from the mind, of making the mind/male/good/celestial and the body/female/bad/mundane, that old dichotomy you purport to have understood yet you fell into it and used it to interpret.

To further explain, the discriminatory consciousness in daoist alchemical symbolism is seen as a tool that indeed has many beneficial uses, but is a servant to the pure spiritual mind. The pure spiritual mind should be the ruler and master, and yet due to the conditioning of the discriminatory mind to constantly be weighing on things it has a proclivity to take over and usurp its master. By following the flow of yin and yang changes within the hexagram Liu Yiming offers insight into how to navigate the balance.
But that's pure disembodied misogyny right there isn't it. You have described 'the pure spiritual mind as master' and hence imply the embodied, the yin realm, as something lesser to be subdued. I don't think the I Ching says 'the pure spiritual mind' is 'master' I think that's all philosophy piled on to it.

So basically your interpretation in this thread is wholly based on this split you perceive, this idea that the pure and spiritual mind is 'better' than the embodiment of life. It isn't of course, they need each other and one is nothing without the other.

The whole of hexagram 43 is about using the strength of yang to eliminate the final element of yin at the top. This is where we disagree.
True, that makes no sense to me but I guess it does to those who use line theory. However even those who use line theory cannot change the fundamental meaning of a line through that line theory.

In both cases of active yang and active yin are many situations designed for restraint, or for going forward. And there are situations where there is advice to do one thing despite the hexagram giving a strong proclivity for the other thing to happen regardless. That is the case in hexagram 43 line 6.
Well yes, 43 has to do with taking the speaking staff (LiSe) making a separation of what is you and isn't, declaring oneself without resorting to arms and by line 6 if one hasn't then it is unfortunate.
You are just derailing the topic.
No, I don't think you can say I am derailing the topic since the topic is the meaning of 43.6 which I haven't deviated from significantly. It's possible your foray into astrology could be seen as 'derailing' since it has zero connection to the topic but still it was a minor derailment so that can pass.

I am happy to leave the thread as it stands as I think we have both said what we wanted to regarding 43.6
 

moss elk

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Well you were wrong on this matter.

Teaching you is not an attack.


I do not believe that you have personal experience with this line, and I do not believe you comprehend it.
 

Daeluin

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So the idea is yin is 'mundane' and yang is 'celestial'.
NO.

Big no. That is not at all what I said, and most of your conclusions are based on this.

Both yin and yang are celestial. Both yin and yang are mundane. In Cultivating the Tao Liu Yiming (tl Pregadio) has very clear descriptions of yin and yang within xiantian and houtian. I do not deviate from this.
 

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