Buddhist prayer 4.3>18

[Olga Super Star]

Since Yi is so cool, I asked:

What is going to happen if I pray two hours a day? (as I had decided to do but almost never made it)
4.3>18

:O

Looks like it's saying I should be careful not to loose myself with this group of Buddhists around me.
As we tend to see things not as they really are.
I myself think these people are sometimes too fanatic. Always insisting on giving money, and counting how many people have been to meetings and so on. I feel in a square of rules while I would just like to pray and be free. It's an organisation I don't like, nothing is spontaneous, nothing is 25!!

Or might it say that it won't be the two hours that will change my life?

 

[Trojina]

This is funny. Funny because you pray to 'God' or whatever you believe in...yet you think we can tell you what God will do about your prayers. Well we won't know since he will know more than us...

Ah you have that very hexagram 'not knowing' as your answer. Hexagram 4 can indicate, sometimes, you asked a foolish question. Sometimes that you'll need to find out for yourself with trial and error.

I'll just be plain rude and say it is perhaps a rather foolish question....in the nicest possible way.

Now, this is a very clear answer, right in front of you. I was going to copy the text of 4.3. Not a commentary of 4.3 just what the I Ching says but why I should I work my butt off when you can do that yourself and learn more at the same time

So copy out what 4.3 says, then tell us what it is saying to you. Something about not worshipping false gods I think.


Are you praying for some kind of result ?





That isn't the purpose of prayer is it ?


What is 4.3 saying to you ?


That's enough work by me ,,,it's over to you

 

[rosada]

4.3
Take not a maiden who, when she sees a man of bronze,
Loses possession of herself.
Nothing furthers.

"A weak, inexperienced man, struggling to rise, easily loses his own individuality when he slavishly Imitates a strong personality of higher station." -Wilhelm

As you included a bit of info about the surrounding circumstances i am seeing this response as having to do with your group. It seems to be cautioning that following this schedule would be a kin to a person following someone else's path rather than their own. I wonder if the IC is pointing out that you are perhaps being motivated to pray in this way because the group recommends it and not because you intuitively recognize it is God's will for you?

Hexagram 18 specifically advises "Before the starting point, three days. After the starting point, three days." Maybe this means before you dedicate your self to such a rigorous schedule pause and note the state of your life as it is now. Maybe keep a diary for three days observing such things as how you spend your time - can you make space for two hours of prayer each day? - and what your inner state is like - clear, confused, happy, chaotic? If after this careful observation you continue to feel that a daily spiritual practice calls to you then give it a go and after three days pause and again observe your life circumstances. Were you able to keep with the schedule? Did outside interference rise up and defeat your intention? If you were able to stick with it how do you now evaluate your inner state? Do you recognize any difference? How about the outer state? More syncronicities?

I do think that 18. Work on What Has Been Spoiled sounds promising. Perhaps it's agreeing that 2 hours of prayer would enliven your spirit, stir you up and give you strength. On the other hand It might be possible to achieve all this without putting quite so much time into it. Probably it's more important to be consistent with your practice - do SOME sort of prayer every day - than how much time you put into it. But it seems to me the I C is saying to pray because you are following someone else's meditation schedule is inappropriate because the purpose of prayer is to strengthen your ability to receive you own guidance directly, to recognize what you need and to follow your own schedule.

Anyway, I don't think praying the two hours a day will hurt you - you won't be flung into some sort of spiritual crisis - but you may find the most telling result is you experience for yourself what works for you.

 

[pocossin]

Buddha loves me, this I know,
For the sutras tells me so.

What is going to happen if I pray two hours a day? (as I had decided to do but almost never made it)
4.3>18

You are going to make yourself sick. Buddha doesn't need two hours of prayer each day -- unless you are praying for me, that is. In the big Buddha picture, time doesn't matter. It's sincerity and intensity -- if only for a second -- that count.

 

[Olga Super Star]

Thank you everyone!

in 2009 I had asked if it was right to keep following this Buddhism and I had got a very wonderful cast - my friend told me at the time. Yet I had decided to stop.
A couple of years later I started again and now I like it although I am not one of those "consistent" people that pray one hour every morning and one hour every night.

I agree one instant of sincerity is better than two hours thinking about something else. I just wanted to see if the universe - which is what I pray when I pray - was in favour of me doing the two hours a day

Many Buddhists I know do that: they decide to do 2 hours pray every day for a limited time, let's say one or two months. They say that this brings about MORE revolution in their life.
And yes we usually pray for results! for our own but also for other people's, for people with cancer, for those who are dead..

So I had decided to do the same: 2 hours every day, to see what was going to change. But I could barely do 3 hours a week.. (by the way Rosada: I have kept a diary of time prayed + synchronicities and things happening!)
So I just wanted to see if Yi thought that 2 hours a day would be an aim to persevere.
Apparently not.

Since this type of Buddhism is often accused of not being Buddhism I was wondering if that "false god" the line talks about is saying that this Buddhism is fake.
But since in 2009 it had given me a good cast, I guess it's just mirroring the way I am considering it?

 

[goddessliss]

Get hold of this movie and watch it more than once -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXUzG6YKuvo

 

[Olga Super Star]

Get hold of this movie and watch it more than once -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXUzG6YKuvo

I honestly don't see why I should. I'm not following a stupid guy that invented his own religion..

 

[ginnie]

I myself think these people are sometimes too fanatic. Always insisting on giving money, and counting how many people have been to meetings and so on. I feel in a square of rules while I would just like to pray and be free. It's an organisation I don't like ...

It would be a mistake to pray with them at this time. You don't like them, so why would you want to start on a spiritual program with them? Many Buddhist organizations are quite rigid with their rules and so forth, and it sounds to me like you would prefer something completely different!

 

[Olga Super Star]

I like the prayer itself and the stuff I read, the idea that's behind it.
I just don't like the organization.

I guess it's the same as when I was 10 years old and I was a Christian because I liked Jesus and his message but did not like the Church that much. I guess when things get organised there's going to be some corruption (18) as we humans are dealing with the organising and therefore put our egos in it.

Thank you all for answering. I shall pray for you of course

 

[Trojina]

I happen to have bought down my copy of Nigel Richmond's 'Language of the Lines'


He says of 4.3

He was acting out in the glamour of his ego self.
Seeing himself, he desists, losing his freedom of movement.

I think you answer showed the thought of praying 2 hours a day was an empty ego offering.

It's a crystal clear answer that you praying two hours a day is to adhere to a false ideal. I'm not saying that Buddhism etc is false but this idea of the 2 hour prayer offering you are thinking of actually is false.
There can be much spiritual pride and ego about who is doing how much prayer and even competition around who has the least ego LOL.



So no don't do it unless you really want to. Yi certainly isn't encouraging it ! So doing that particular thing is not your truth at the moment.


BTW with this reading I really did want you to get there by yourself, to find the text yourself, to think about it yourself. I thought it was one you could understand yourself, without our help. Also you will grow more in understanding if you put your own interpretation first. I just think this would have been a great one for you to work on by yourself and show us what you thought first. Unfortunately that didn't happen this time. Maybe next time.

 

[Olga Super Star]

There can be much spiritual pride and ego about who is doing how much prayer and even competition around who has the least ego LOL.

Yes there is a lot of competition in that. People who pray a lot every day are well considered and get higher in the organization hierarchy (couldn't care less) while people who just pray 10 minutes a day are encouraged to pray more and to go to more meetings.

 

[Olga Super Star]

BTW with this reading I really did want you to get there by yourself, to find the text yourself, to think about it yourself. I thought it was one you could understand yourself, without our help. Also you will grow more in understanding if you put your own interpretation first. I just think this would have been a great one for you to work on by yourself and show us what you thought first. Unfortunately that didn't happen this time. Maybe next time.

I had read the line of course and thought about it as I always do, and my interpretation was that

I should be careful not to loose myself with this group of Buddhists around me. As we tend to see things not as they really are.

 

[ginnie]

You see this organization of Buddhists as having these flaws, but you think you can successfully go forward anyway, and somehow it will be OK. But Yi is saying it won't be OK, because you are incompatible with these people. You may be thwarted by their ignorance. There is something impressive and powerful about their structure and organization that pulls you in, but you will regret being associated with them. That is what this line says.

 

[Olga Super Star]

But how can it be that years ago when I started it was suggesting me to keep praying?
Could it be because I didn't know anything about them yet so I didn't influence the response with my opinion?

 

[Trojina]

FWIW I don't agree with Ginnie's last post. Afterall you only asked about praying for 2 hours not about the group of people.

I wouldn't go with the idea these people are wrong for you. I mean they might be but I think that would need a separate question. However Ginnie could be right.

But how can it be that years ago when I started it was suggesting me to keep praying?
Could it be because I didn't know anything about them yet so I didn't influence the response with my opinion

No. The I Ching would have told you whether you yet had a view of them or not. But things change. Yi is the book of change. Maybe a few years ago it suited you more.

 

[Olga Super Star]

yeah probably!
although it's not just fanatics in there of course
some people are beautiful, and the message is too.

 

[rosada]

I think the IC is saying that 2 hours is excessive. At 4.2 the inexperienced young fool has found a useful place that suits his level of understanding and experience, but at 4.3 he's trying to fast forward and understand things that are beyond his experience.

I think 4.3 is saying you won't get more out of the Buddhist experience by praying more. Perhaps instead you should simply put the insights into practice what you've already received. Maybe as you do, you'll come to feel for yourself how much prayer time you need.

Too much emphasis on spiritual matters can bring on changes more rapidly than is advisable. Like if we totally got it how non-physical we really are, would we be able to keep breathing? Or to be simply practical, how many of us can afford to devote 2 hours a day to meditation?

Well, it's fun to look at all the possible meanings. Thanks for posting the question!
Rosada

 

[sooo]

yeah probably!
although it's not just fanatics in there of course
some people are beautiful, and the message is too.

Prayer, like "spirituality" means different things to different people, and even to one person there can be several forms of prayer. I think one of the more honest forms of prayer happens at a moment of sudden shock, with an "Oh, my God!" Even atheists pray this kind of prayer. There is private prayer, such as spoken of in Mathew 6.6: "But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you." The reward may not be a yes answer to whatever you prayed for. Sometimes a no or a not yet answer is actually more beneficial for heaven's purposes, and in the long run for the one praying. There is ritualistic prayer, such as "salat", performed within the Muslim faith. And this sounds not unlike the dharma dutiful service of Buddhism, or the Apostle's Creed, the ritual prayer of Catholics. This can be performed in private but is often performed as a group.

I don't think your question is foolish. I don't think that's what 4 implies here. I think the Yi is suggesting an unassuming approach to the mystery of divine identity. This can be done whether within a congregation or alone in your "closet of prayer". It is between you and divinity within you. Some faith systems pray to have a relationship with divinity, even in those less developed Buddhists who worship the Buddha as a Christian worships Jesus. That is line 3: looking upward. Also in line 3 is a sense of unworthiness, and so waiting or stalling is also unfortunate. Need to work on that - 18. To the developed Buddhist, prayer isn't a matter of worship nor even of relationship, but a matter of identifying with deity. That is the reward, which can only be received when approaching deity as an unknowing child. To use the Taoist metaphor, the value of a bowl is its emptiness.

 

[poised]

pocossin:

FOTFLMAO…

Buddha love me too. I don't even know one single sutra.

 

[ragini]

Hi Olga, I have received this line many times in the past. I can't say if this applies to you, but I'll share what it meant for me.

I got this line when I was giving up my power to other people. When instead of deciding things myself, I would either rely on someone else or on the Yi. I think it is the IChings way of saying - Don't give up your power, not even to me, you have to decide that yourself.

 

[sooo]

Hi Olga, I have received this line many times in the past. I can't say if this applies to you, but I'll share what it meant for me.

I got this line when I was giving up my power to other people. When instead of deciding things myself, I would either rely on someone else or on the Yi. I think it is the IChings way of saying - Don't give up your power, not even to me, you have to decide that yourself.

Not even to your favorite local/folk image of deity, which to some the IC can become, as well as the Buddha, Christ, Krishna, Ala, etc.

 

[Olga Super Star]

Thank you.

Before reading this last suggestion from Ragini I had asked
How do you suggest I should approach this Buddhist practice? and got 12 unchanging

What can this Buddhist practice bring me? 18 unchanging

I guess 18 unchanging is not bad. It's the repair of corruption, isn't it? So it would seem to be a practice that would heal grief and change some behaviour. Transforming it. And transform is the word we usually use in this practice. We say whatever you have in you, bring it in front of the altar and pray, and by praying it will transform itself. By praying you will transform your life, the way you see things.

From Hillary:
18 identifies the moment when you have the opportunity to deal with the mess and set your life on better foundations. It suggests you dig in and identify where your problems come from. 'here's an opportunity to fix what's messed up'.

About 12 unchanging I found lots of you saying that 12 is just a temporary NO, Stop, refuse, separate from, turn away from.. and so on.
But also found this by Martin:
it may suggest spiritual healing, a healing influence that comes 'from above' instead of 'from below'.

I like to think of hex 12 as a battery that is connected in the 'wrong' way to a circuit, upside down, plus and minus pole reversed. But this is the 'right' way if there is a current in the circuit (from another source) and you want to load the battery.
Reloading our batteries - that's why I associate hex 12 with 'flow reversal' and 'holiday'

Could it just mean I'm having a break from it? Since I prayed a lot from October till a few weeks ago, and now I am actually not praying really..

 

[Trojina]

You and the Buddhists are just sounding worse and worse......

I've read in another thread of yours that your group or people you know attribute their luck in acting jobs to prayer and so on. It sounds a highly materialistic form of Buddhism where people just put in the hours praying to get what they want

12uc is about as stark an answer as you can get.

How do you suggest I should approach this Buddhist practice? and got 12 unchanging

Er don't approach it....it's a dead offering which is what 4.3 said
4.3 from Hilarys book BTW

'Don't take this woman.
She sees a man of bronze, and there is no self.
No direction bears fruit'

Right so this describes someone who is willing to throw herself away for some shining ideal she created or someone created. But it isn't a real man it's a 'man of bronze'.

So that was clear....varying views on it but we've moved on.

But now you have 12 uc and 18uc.....This isn't for you, it's going nowhere.

What can this Buddhist practice bring me? 18 unchanging

The very idea of it bringing you something is corrupted. The practise as it is currently being observed around you is corrupted. I hear this in what you say and you have the answers to confirm.

It's up to you of course but I see the current practises you are thinking of with this group a dead end.


OTOH this may not be permanent. It may be just right now you need a break from certain people in it or certain ideas. Obviously if you are very committed to the path you won't just want to drop it all but this string of answers is clear IMO that you need to separate yourself from things that don't sit right with you or feel right to you at the moment.

 

[Olga Super Star]

IMO = in my opinion
OTOH =

But Trojina, is my reading totally wrong?
Couldn't 18 mean "an opportunity to heal"? Hillary too says so..
uch:

 

[goddessliss]

http://www.sbs.com.au/ondemand/video/395958851809/Seven-Wonders-Of-The-Buddhist-World?cid=od:v2:5

 

[Trojina]

IMO = in my opinion
OTOH =

But Trojina, is my reading totally wrong?
Couldn't 18 mean "an opportunity to heal"? Hillary too says so..
uch:

OTOH means 'on the other hand'. My feeling for the reading in the context, and you did ask what the practise can bring you, was as I said. But you can interpret 18 differently if you want to. You can also do what you want to of course.

 

[pocossin]

IMO = in my opinion
OTOH =

These are actually ancient Egyptian gods which modern young people worship.

 

[Olga Super Star]

These are actually ancient Egyptian gods which modern young people worship.

 

[ginnie]

These are actually ancient Egyptian gods which modern young people worship.

 

[svenrus]

These are actually ancient Egyptian gods which modern young people worship.

Oh Thot Oh Hathor
Amen (Amon Re)