Called to fast?

[treehaven]

Asked: "If I answer call to long fast, probable outcome?"

Answer:
Vessel changing to Traveling

For health, spiritual, transformative reasons, I have long thought I might be called to a long fast (up to 40 days). Once, 33 years ago (now I'm 81, going on 100), my body "chose" to fast about 19 days during an autoimmune flair. My hands were so swollen, I couldn't write or hold a pen and I was finishing my bachelor's degree at University. I continued going to class (riding my little motor cycle during a terrific heat wave), managed to transcribe tape recordings of classes on the new Apple PCs at the library and had perfect notes and organized study groups for each class which helped everybody. Professors said we were the best classes they ever had (upper division and graduate students mixed together). This was intense and the only time I ever attended college when I wasn't working a job at least part time. At 48, this was the best time I ever spent academically. The worst of the autoimmune "crisis" and fast resolved in about 3 weeks. Transformative experience. Am going thru another major transition physically and am trying to develope a small homestead permaculture garden and nursery on a mountain spot and feeling the same frustration with desire for production being stalled by physiology and spiritual muddiness. Fast seems to be starting itself. Seem to want to shut down on feeding for a span of time. Feels gentle, peaceful, and promising. Can you help me with interpretation? I wasn't logged in so couldn't just record the thread automatically. Old Beth (treehaven). Note: this is my first thread posting. Help?

 

[Trojina]

You need to write in the change lines and it helps to give the number of the hexagrams

You say you received

Asked: "If I answer call to long fast, probable outcome?"

Answer:
Vessel changing to Traveling

So you'd write this as 50.2>56.

(BTW here is a link, click on the blue, to help with posting in a way that may maximise responses)

So what does the line say ? From Hilary in wikiwing the words of Yi for this line are

'The vessel contains something real.
My companions are anxious,
Cannot come near me.
Good fortune.'

I think generally this line advises one not to be unduly affected by others negative emotions whether that be fear or anxiety or anger or jealousy or just their unspecified redervations that might impede a course of action. Well Yi is saying these disturbing or worrying emotions you sense from others can't impact on this. I wonder here if it isn't negative emotions from others as such but even things you read or watch online for example.

Also it's telling you that you have something of real value here regardless of what others say. Perhaps it's the fasting idea/effects of fasting.

Disclaimer: I actually would be one of those people cautioning you not to do this. Long fasting doesn't seem a good idea to me unless supervised or in special circumstances in a monastery or something like that. That's my own opinion. However it seems to me Yi is saying don't heed people such as myself with this viewpoint so....it's over to you.

 

[my_key]

Asked: "If I answer call to long fast, probable outcome?"

Answer:
Vessel changing to Traveling

For health, spiritual, transformative reasons, I have long thought I might be called to a long fast (up to 40 days). Once, 33 years ago (now I'm 81, going on 100), my body "chose" to fast about 19 days during an autoimmune flair. My hands were so swollen, I couldn't write or hold a pen and I was finishing my bachelor's degree at University. I continued going to class (riding my little motor cycle during a terrific heat wave), managed to transcribe tape recordings of classes on the new Apple PCs at the library and had perfect notes and organized study groups for each class which helped everybody. Professors said we were the best classes they ever had (upper division and graduate students mixed together). This was intense and the only time I ever attended college when I wasn't working a job at least part time. At 48, this was the best time I ever spent academically. The worst of the autoimmune "crisis" and fast resolved in about 3 weeks. Transformative experience. Am going thru another major transition physically and am trying to develope a small homestead permaculture garden and nursery on a mountain spot and feeling the same frustration with desire for production being stalled by physiology and spiritual muddiness. Fast seems to be starting itself. Seem to want to shut down on feeding for a span of time. Feels gentle, peaceful, and promising. Can you help me with interpretation? I wasn't logged in so couldn't just record the thread automatically. Old Beth (treehaven). Note: this is my first thread posting. Help?

The answer: 50.2>56.
Hex 50: The Vessel meaning 'grasping renewal'
Hex 56: Sojourning at the Borders / Quest meaning 'connecting the scattered few'

Nuclear 43 Deciding and Parting meaning 'breaking up the obstacle'

The deeper connection with your enquiry is to break up an obstacle and this of itself challenges you to stay centred (remaining strongly in your power and virtue) in order to best help yourself. The context of your situation likens to a Quest where disparate things can be brought together (56) to manifest a renewal (50) within you. Be wary, though, of any negative 'grasping' aspects of yourself that you see in any part of this situation.

Line 2, in general, talks to an inner reorganisation that can create greater harmony within your world.

50.2 - speaks specifically about the 'realness' of what you feel and how trusting your true self in this matter, rather than the negative influences around you is the way to keep your transformation open.

It is important though that you take proper care of all of you along the way and finding appropriate 'places of rest' on your journey is key. In fact, these places may be more insightful, or transformational, for you than any 'probable outcome' you might envisage.

This might well be a case of 'The journey is more important than the destination'. Maybe the power of the transformation is vested in your decision-making to answer the call to fast rather than the fast itself..... only you will know!

...or it may mean nothing like this at all for you.

Good Luck

 

[BaronAsh]

50 Vessel might refer to the body itself, or our entire body/mind complex. We can cook poison or medicine therein. A fast is of course a chance to clean out, reset.
The second line is the threshold between internal/self and the world outside, so perhaps you should take care of the boundaries. There is a hint in the 56 lower trigram which results from 50's #2 Changing line, which is Mountain, Keeping Still. Also Mountain has to do with beginnings and endings, not to mention connection with ancestral wisdom and dignity.

A great 19th century meditation master in Tibet (Jamgon Kongtrul the Great) gave the following simple advice about spiritual retreats, which a fast can certainly be (and ideally is), namely (and I paraphrase from memory):

'Make your retreat like a grain of rice; narrow at each end and thick in the middle.' In other words, take your time to enter it and also take your time to exit it with the strictest/deepest/most intense part being in the middle. As you know, it takes a few days to settle into a fast, though if your body is already starting one spontaneously that makes it much easier. Then you have the main period of the fast. Then you have to exit it.

I have done a few fasts from 20-40 days in the past twenty years, some of them very good, some not so good. In all cases, though, I have yet to master the exiting part and have always ended up making too quick a change from only ingesting water to having meals, and also from having very few (or no) social engagements to being fully engaged and active. In some cases have had bad edema (swelling) in the lower legs, breathing issues etc. from moving too fast at the end.

I read a French book on fasting the first time and the author said that if you find yourself thinking about food all the time once you are well into the fast, it's a sign that you should be thinking of ending it, and then I think he recommended about 1 day of exit time for every 2 days of full fast time. I usually end the whole thing in 2-4 days, which clearly is wrong. I just can't help myself. Food is so delicious and appealing! (So the initial exit time fare is like a couple of oranges a day or some such, or liquid-only broths and taking a while before moving onto solids with grains being the last thing to add in.)

In any case, your reading seems quite favorable. You need to be patient (Wind/Wood below) by Keeping Still (Mountain) and connecting with inner dignity and wisdom, which at your age is a natural thing I suspect (I'm half a generation behind you but, sadly, not there yet!), and let the Fire above, like the Sun in the Sky, shine bright. To me this indicates a very favorable, sunny, bright Heaven in your whole quest or endeavor.

56 implies there will be a journey, which is nice - i.e. a shift, a change, a passage - but also in the commentaries it mentions how travelers have uncertain situations so must tread lightly. Similarly with a fast one is going through things, maybe new things, maybe letting go of old things, both on physical and mental levels of course, so it's best to tread lightly there as well. Don't avoid them but also don't make a big fuss about them either. Let them all come, dwell for a while, and then go. one phase at a time.

50 is a vessel, a crucible, it's where magic is cooked up, transformation - like our entire life journey in this particular body-mind container. It also suggests concentration, bringing things together into one point, aka 'cooking.' It's ironic that a cast about doing a fast yields the image of a cooking pot, isn't it!?

Good luck. Fasting is one of the very best things we can do even though it is largely overlooked these days. If the whole world had gone on a 30-day fast last year, there would have been no pandemic!!

 

[dfreed]

Tree Haven ....

Asked: "If I answer call to long fast, probable outcome?" And the Answer: 50.2 > 56.

Hex. 50 is called the Vessel, Tripod Bowl, Cauldron. It brings to mind a diviner's or healer's vessel where transformation / alchemy takes (or can take) place.

Hex 50 talks about 'creating success' and 'good fortune' - so I think the outcome of your fast can (or will) be good.

Line 50.2 reads:
'The vessel contains something real.
My companions are anxious, Cannot come near me.
Good fortune.' (trans. Barrett)

.... there is something real and of benefit (good fortune) in fasting, and you should take the 'anxious' opinions of others with a grain of salt (i.e. with caution) ....

50's lower trigram (three line figure) is Wind; it's about exploring possibilities - looking in different directions, asking questions. But with the 2nd line moving, there is some doubt or hesitation here - like something you'd ask the Yi about!

And the Yi responds with Mountain (the lower trigram of Hex. 56). Mountain can be about 'stopping processes' - which is one way to view fasting (e.g. to stop the process of eating, intake, digestion); however, Mountain is also about looking to the past and deciding what you want to carry forward into the future that will be of use.

This is like someone saying, 'Looking back, I used to be able to drink heavily, stay up late for nights on end, and fast for long periods, but now ...'

... but now, this is a caution: you can fast and it can be of benefit to you, but don't think that you should (or can, or have to) do this like you used when you were younger. It may be that you start out more gently, and that you let yourself stop when it no longer feels right.

50's upper trigram is Fire / Light. It makes me wonder, is your desire (or need) to fast more about finding clarity - and less about overcoming some physical (or external) condition? This fits with what you said, that you are "stalled by physiology and spiritual muddiness."

Hex. 56, is you, the Traveler or the Sojourner. Your fast is only a temporary place - like the traveler's hillside campfire. And you should consider 'creating small successes' .... and being content with these.

I hope that's of some use to you.
D.

 

[Trojina]

Any feedback ? You've posted a new thread on the topic but haven't come back here ? Maybe you can't find the thread


Here is the outcome, the new thread

long fast 49.1.4.5.6 to 52

Asked: "I am on day 19 of long fast. If I take it to 40 days, probable outcome? Answer:. 49.1.4.5.6 to 52 Looks good to me. See any problems in hexagrams?

www.onlineclarity.co.uk

The fast was undertaken. The querent is possibly far too hungry to respond

 

[treehaven]

You need to write in the change lines and it helps to give the number of the hexagrams

You say you received




So you'd write this as 50.2>56.

(BTW here is a link, click on the blue, to help with posting in a way that may maximise responses)

So what does the line say ? From Hilary in wikiwing the words of Yi for this line are

'The vessel contains something real.
My companions are anxious,
Cannot come near me.
Good fortune.'

I think generally this line advises one not to be unduly affected by others negative emotions whether that be fear or anxiety or anger or jealousy or just their unspecified redervations that might impede a course of action. Well Yi is saying these disturbing or worrying emotions you sense from others can't impact on this. I wonder here if it isn't negative emotions from others as such but even things you read or watch online for example.

Also it's telling you that you have something of real value here regardless of what others say. Perhaps it's the fasting idea/effects of fasting.

Disclaimer: I actually would be one of those people cautioning you not to do this. Long fasting doesn't seem a good idea to me unless supervised or in special circumstances in a monastery or something like that. That's my own opinion. However it seems to me Yi is saying don't heed people such as myself with this viewpoint so....it's over to you.

Trojina, I just read your later-than-this post, and was answering it, when I saw how to click on this response. My little dog was having strokes or something and his veteranarians assured me he was 2-3 years past his due date. He was blind, deaf, and could barely walk from arthritis. I adopted him from a friend who thought Jethro (the dog) would die very soon. I wanted to give Jethrow as much freedom to enjoy sun and fresh air and a constant companion for as long as possible. We shared a wonderful year in isolation together on our mountain. He was happy as a clam most of that whole year. He "graduated" about two weeks ago. The fast sustained me during some hard grieving, and now continues.
I did read this reading (didn't see any others at the time). Your answer was completely in line with my intuition and interpretation of the text of the answer from I. I know zero about the hexagrams and changes and all that. I'm a total novice who has found a lot of help from Clarity for several years using intuitive understanding of the words of the readings. Also, your answer was very encouraging and in line with what my heart/intuition was saying. My attention became almost totally absorbed in helping my sweet little Jethrow enjoy his last days. I miss him fiercely. Thanks for your kindness and advice and encouragement. Advice gladly taken.

 

[treehaven]

The answer: 50.2>56.
Hex 50: The Vessel meaning 'grasping renewal'
Hex 56: Sojourning at the Borders / Quest meaning 'connecting the scattered few'

Nuclear 43 Deciding and Parting meaning 'breaking up the obstacle'

The deeper connection with your enquiry is to break up an obstacle and this of itself challenges you to stay centred (remaining strongly in your power and virtue) in order to best help yourself. The context of your situation likens to a Quest where disparate things can be brought together (56) to manifest a renewal (50) within you. Be wary, though, of any negative 'grasping' aspects of yourself that you see in any part of this situation.

Line 2, in general, talks to an inner reorganisation that can create greater harmony within your world.

50.2 - speaks specifically about the 'realness' of what you feel and how trusting your true self in this matter, rather than the negative influences around you is the way to keep your transformation open.

It is important though that you take proper care of all of you along the way and finding appropriate 'places of rest' on your journey is key. In fact, these places may be more insightful, or transformational, for you than any 'probable outcome' you might envisage.

This might well be a case of 'The journey is more important than the destination'. Maybe the power of the transformation is vested in your decision-making to answer the call to fast rather than the fast itself..... only you will know!

...or it may mean nothing like this at all for you.

Good Luck

Dear my_key,
Trojina got onto me (rightly so) for not responding to ya'll. She was right, but 1) I had no idea how to do this thing and 2) my little dog Jethro needed a lot of looking after (died about 2 weeks ago). Between grieving, deep rest during fast, and fairly intense youtube and internet use trying to understand the recent science about long fast to make sure I was safely managing it, the forum just wasn't on the radar. My mountain homestead is perfect for spiritual renewal and fasting and all that good stuff.
You are right about the value of the fast being inexplicable. Every possible goal that usually inspires folks to fast are being fulfilled: physical improvement of multiple serious medical issues has been almost scary; my struggle to get homestead up and running has been quieted down and refreshed; my ability to naturally and spontaneously pray and meditate are reviving, and my link to nature is blooming and brain fog is quietly burning off. Quiet joy and a great sense of peace and unity are present each day. And each day stands alone. Sort of like each day has a life of its own. Your link allowed me to think on the benefits and outcomes. Thank you very much. Didn't see your post until now, but maybe I'm learning how to do this thing. Sorry for my delay.
The detail in the I ching's answers often spook me. So outrageously relevant sometimes. As though someone who knew me extremely well were standing right beside me, who knows all my deepest motives and desires and intentions. Sort of like (or maybe is) an aspect of the Holy Spirit. Don't want to start any inter-religious dog fights, but feels awfully familiar. Didn't realize this until I spilled it out just now. I'm sure many of you have thought about this relative to the I for a long time. I'm just coming to it from another side of the coin.
Oh, and hex 56? I feel a very definite integration and grounding after a decade or so of 7 hour a day yoga in large TM group with hundreds, up to 2,000, others. That takes some "coming down" from. My homestead has helped me a lot to get grounded. The fast seems to be like touching bedrock. Like a new foundation being established. A reboot.
Old Beth @treehaven

50 Vessel might refer to the body itself, or our entire body/mind complex. We can cook poison or medicine therein. A fast is of course a chance to clean out, reset.
The second line is the threshold between internal/self and the world outside, so perhaps you should take care of the boundaries. There is a hint in the 56 lower trigram which results from 50's #2 Changing line, which is Mountain, Keeping Still. Also Mountain has to do with beginnings and endings, not to mention connection with ancestral wisdom and dignity.

A great 19th century meditation master in Tibet (Jamgon Kongtrul the Great) gave the following simple advice about spiritual retreats, which a fast can certainly be (and ideally is), namely (and I paraphrase from memory):

'Make your retreat like a grain of rice; narrow at each end and thick in the middle.' In other words, take your time to enter it and also take your time to exit it with the strictest/deepest/most intense part being in the middle. As you know, it takes a few days to settle into a fast, though if your body is already starting one spontaneously that makes it much easier. Then you have the main period of the fast. Then you have to exit it.

I have done a few fasts from 20-40 days in the past twenty years, some of them very good, some not so good. In all cases, though, I have yet to master the exiting part and have always ended up making too quick a change from only ingesting water to having meals, and also from having very few (or no) social engagements to being fully engaged and active. In some cases have had bad edema (swelling) in the lower legs, breathing issues etc. from moving too fast at the end.

I read a French book on fasting the first time and the author said that if you find yourself thinking about food all the time once you are well into the fast, it's a sign that you should be thinking of ending it, and then I think he recommended about 1 day of exit time for every 2 days of full fast time. I usually end the whole thing in 2-4 days, which clearly is wrong. I just can't help myself. Food is so delicious and appealing! (So the initial exit time fare is like a couple of oranges a day or some such, or liquid-only broths and taking a while before moving onto solids with grains being the last thing to add in.)

In any case, your reading seems quite favorable. You need to be patient (Wind/Wood below) by Keeping Still (Mountain) and connecting with inner dignity and wisdom, which at your age is a natural thing I suspect (I'm half a generation behind you but, sadly, not there yet!), and let the Fire above, like the Sun in the Sky, shine bright. To me this indicates a very favorable, sunny, bright Heaven in your whole quest or endeavor.

56 implies there will be a journey, which is nice - i.e. a shift, a change, a passage - but also in the commentaries it mentions how travelers have uncertain situations so must tread lightly. Similarly with a fast one is going through things, maybe new things, maybe letting go of old things, both on physical and mental levels of course, so it's best to tread lightly there as well. Don't avoid them but also don't make a big fuss about them either. Let them all come, dwell for a while, and then go. one phase at a time.

50 is a vessel, a crucible, it's where magic is cooked up, transformation - like our entire life journey in this particular body-mind container. It also suggests concentration, bringing things together into one point, aka 'cooking.' It's ironic that a cast about doing a fast yields the image of a cooking pot, isn't it!?

Good luck. Fasting is one of the very best things we can do even though it is largely overlooked these days. If the whole world had gone on a 30-day fast last year, there would have been no pandemic!!

Dear BaronAsh, You've got me laughing so hard, I've got to take a break. Sorry, I didn't see this til now. After studying what you've written some more, will feedback. I have a delightful little Carolina Wren visiting me right now. Has a beautiful little chirp. It's about as delightful and refreshing as you are.
Thanks, Old Beth

p.s. What does BaronAsh mean? Royal/warrior karma burner? Just thinking... Might fit what you've told me so far.

 

[Trojina]

Trojina, I just read your later-than-this post, and was answering it, when I saw how to click on this response. My little dog was having strokes or something and his veteranarians assured me he was 2-3 years past his due date. He was blind, deaf, and could barely walk from arthritis. I adopted him from a friend who thought Jethro (the dog) would die very soon. I wanted to give Jethrow as much freedom to enjoy sun and fresh air and a constant companion for as long as possible. We shared a wonderful year in isolation together on our mountain. He was happy as a clam most of that whole year. He "graduated" about two weeks ago. The fast sustained me during some hard grieving, and now continues.

So sorry to hear about this.

 

[treehaven]

Thank you. Still tears, but I'm happy for him.