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soshin

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I asked the Yi yesterday: "What time is it for me?" (and yes, I do have a watch, and I know the time zone I am in
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), and I got 14.4.6>11...

Soooo.... with the fan yao the Steps of Change should be: 14>34(4)>26(6)>11.

Am I technically right with that? Can I be really happy now? I am happy now, as a matter of fact, but still suspicious...

There was a lot of change to the better lately, a very good friend of mine recovered from a serious illness, which put other, less important up's and downs to a fitting scale, and I am full of hope for the future.

hex14.gif


Any input would be appreciated.

Namaste, all!

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soshin

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But I got the 14, shows I am ahead of my time...
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J

jeanystar

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If there was ever a cause for celebration in a reading, I would say that was it. Enjoy. Be Happy.
NO Worries.
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T

tashij

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"!!!"

WoW

(' % ')

+
...

+
uhhh....( forgot how to add)
uhhh...

equals....
oh yeah.

\(*@*)/

soshin!
 

soshin

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Dear all...

Thanks for the congrats,
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, but back to the work now...
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Does anybody know who invented or re-invented the fan yao? As far as I know, you have to go from the bottom to the top, changing the first line which moves into it's counterpart. You've got the first fan yao. Here you only read the corresponding moving line (14.4 means you should read 34.4). Then you undo this change, and go over to the next moving line, in that case being 14.6. This one should correspond to 26.6. Is that right, technically spoken?

And what does the text of those corresponding fan yao lines mean? A further elaboration of the topics in the primary moving lines (in that case 14.4 and 6)?

I became interested in that technique the last days because it seems to add a lot of information to in-depth-readings. But I am not sure how to handle it.

Is somebody out there who has experience with that method? Any input would be greatly appreciated.

Namaste,

Soshin
 

heylise

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I will make a new thread for the fanyao.

LiSe
 

heylise

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(in the discussions room)
 

soshin

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Thank you, LiSe. I'm moving, too.
 

soshin

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Just to prevent anybody stumbling over my mistake: I messed it all up. The correct sequence would be: 14.4.6>26.4>34.6>11
This makes much more sense in my case.

I simply knew it was way too good. But I'm very happy with the answer, though.
smile.gif
 

soshin

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...even more so without the fan yao...
 

pedro

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Soshin, sorry to correct you, but here's the right sequence for the "steps of change"

14.4 -> 26.6 -> 11

it doesnt go through 34, but you get the 6th line which is so inspiring at 26 (quite like 14.6, although in 26 I think it demands more of our effort)
 

soshin

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Hi, Pedro,

thank you for your input! Where do you have the inspiration for this technique from? I am simply not able to recall where I do have the inspiration for that what I thought it would be the "Steps of Change" from.

So the first would have been right, but excluding 34? What is the "formula" for the "steps of Change" to which you are corresponding?

I did a Google search, but to no avail.

Thank you and Namaste,

Soshin
 

bradford_h

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Hi-
I don't know if 14.4.6>26.6>11 is "Steps of Change" or not (that's Stephen K's I spoze).
But this is what Mondo Secter first called "Transitional Hexagrams" in 1976
b
 
C

cheiron

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This raises some very interesting questions about Fanyao and the steps of change.

For me using the steps of change without Fanyao (Can I spell it like that LiSe / Brad?) Would involve adopting the concept that as one progresses through the change one progresses up the hexagram...

So for me 14.4.6 >11 would be something like this...

14 is the time...

The variable or tension in the time might first be situated in or modify to 26. (14.4 >26)

The next movement is the 6th line. (Staying with the concept of time progressing through the reading...)

So next one would read the 14.6 line...

However it is cumulative... So I would, myself not look at all at 34 here because 14.4 has already take place at that time.

Instead I would read the line 14.6 as the key of that moment and would look at it in terms of a movement towards, or a situation of, 11.

So I would write the time line as:

14.4 > 26 > 14.4.6 > 11

This yields good results for me except that moving lines might also:

1) Take place in the same instant (eg a complex situation. So Steps of change is inappropriate.

2) Represent people; forces or body areas at different levels and not time.

eg line 4 represents the pregnant latency of ones inner world before it clearly manifests itself or is expressed in the outer, concrete, world. And line 6 represents a matured, spent, or over extended energy in the outer world.

Or line 4 represents the minister, his wife or his second son. And line 6 represents the retired King or old sage.

Or (See LiSe' website) they represents parts of the body starting at the feet and ending at the head.

These are my experiences, learnings. They are not the 'truth' of it... there is no such thing, I believe, as truth which we can grasp, or a fixed method...

I am firmly convinced that the Yi will speak to us in the way we expect it will...

Our Connection is all...

For me the more concepts or models I use the more likely the Yi will answer in one of those veins... thus I increase the vocabulary of the communication between the Yi and myself...

MHO

Now the very interesting thing is how does Fanyao work here...

Going to sleep before I write more
happy.gif



--Kevin
 

hilary

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Steps of Change is what Stephen K calls the hexagram created by each line moving alone. Unlike transitional hexagrams, they're not cumulative changes. So the 'step of change' for 14,4 is 26, and for 14,6 it's 34, like Soshin said. Aka zhi gua, I think?
 
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cheiron

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Hi Brad

Sorry crossed post...

Nor sure if 14.4.6>26.6>11 is one of Karche's...

Is it?

New to me... more to look into, ughh, grin.

--Kevin
 
C

cheiron

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Hi Hilary

How might that work in a reading?

--Kevin

more crossed posts...
 

pedro

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Yes I meant "transitional hex'es" (thanks Brad
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), sorry, its the same thing Karcher calls "steps of change" or whatever, as far as I know
Its not a new idea by an means, and am I missing something or is it thoroughly discussed somewhere at this site? maybe at the classic "multiple lines" thread(s)?
Anyway, its not that useful, except in those cases where a) there are many moving lines, and b) we dont know how to figure them by themselves...
Never found the technique that useful
In any case Hilary, youre making me think because I never got it like that, I think they are comulative (not the same as zhi gua), hence 14.4-26.6-11 (actually I have always believed the Mondo Secter method is the same as Karcher's - please correct me if Im wrong)
Anyway I think the point is not so much to read all those lines, but to derive a sequence of hexagrams that may make some sense in a "journey" type of way, hence the "steps" in the name (but "transitional" may be a more acurate description)
As I said, its a last resort type of analysis, and I myself havent found it very useful (not nearly as much as the fan yao, which, like Brad says, is not the omen, but a very good aid in expanding the views over a particular line, like a "reverse perspective", the "negative" of the line), unless the question is itself a more philosophical one, like "whats my path" or "what steps will I be going thru" or somehing like that
 

bradford_h

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Hi Hilary e Pedro
If these steps are one at a time, then Steps of Change are indeed simply Zhi Gua.
Transitional Hexagrams only refers to the method for multiple changing lines done cumulatively, as Pedro sez, a journey of several steps.
 

hilary

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I first met steps of change in Stephen's How to use the I Ching, republished now as I Ching Plain and Simple. Zhi gua they are - trust me on that, Pedro.
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I think Stephen did present them as a journey/ steps. The way I'd use them now is to ask myself, 'In what way is this line 14's 26?' or 'How does the pull towards 26 show up in this line?' - something like that. Ask me what answers I'd get when I'm awake...
 

pedro

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Hi Hilary and Brad, I'll have to trust you on this as I havent really read any of the books

but actually I think Andreas Schoter has a paper where he compares all these methods..

oh yes, here it is (pdf)

..and after a quick look, and assuming Andreas is right, I guess we're still not settled
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Mondo Secter's "transition hexagrams" differs from Karcher's "steps of change" in that they are "comulative" to use Hilary's description, and not exactly the same as zhi gua. Karcher instead uses the zhi guas for all moving lines as a sequence (hence the steps), but since they all are taken from the primary hexagram, the result is different from Secter's

For the above example 14-11:
Secter: 14.4 -> 26.6 -> 11
Karcher: 14 -> 26 -> 34

Gotta go now, seeya
 

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