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Can someone please talk to me about 17 to 25?

tashiiij

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I have gotten 17 top line change to 25 a few times recently. It seems to be a bit precarious, but also, it seems to be very auspicious, these two at the top of the mountain, making offering.

Does anyone know the story of this line? What is the western mountain? Who are the two who are bound together?

25, for me, is similar to hex 10 because I am treading on something that is going to point out my blind spots. In 25 one is without guile, yet still falls into error. I think it is very good, overall, because it is better to learn something from innocence rather than deviousness. At least after the lesson is learned one can rest that one did not have bad intention. Or it is learning unconventional wisdom. Like, giving something when it is wiser to withold. Conventional wisdom says to give. But in reality, sometimes it is better not to give, it is better to withhold. An example of 25 learned would be knowing when to throw protocol to the wind when adhereing to protocol would stifle something more vital. Vice Versa.

So 25 is not so easy to get, for me, because i know something is going to be lost and learned.

17 top line change also seems to be rather precarious.

But my overall feeling is this is desirable....

Please, anyone with thoughts about this? 17 top line?
 

frandoch

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Stephen Karcher writes:

17/6 'Disentangle yourself from the past and re-imagine the situation. Gather energy for a decisive new move.'

Also his title for 25 is 'Disentangling'

Michael F.
 

chrislofting

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Hi Michael,

>
> Stephen Karcher writes:
>
> 17/6 'Disentangle yourself from the past and re-imagine the
> situation. Gather energy for a decisive new move.'
>
> Also his title for 25 is 'Disentangling'
>

as is mine - http://pages.prodigy.net/lofting/lofting/111001.html

My 17/6 ICPlus interpretation reads "Having established a following, one attempts to retire but will be called back."

the original Karcher/Ritsema label was "without embroiling" - a title Karcher retained in "How to use the I Ching" so if he is now using 'disentangling' then he is catching-up! ;-)

On the above link click on the hexagram image to get additional info re pairings etc. (17/25 form a pair in the binary sequence, 17 is the integrating element and 25 the differentiating element of the same generic sense of a 'belief/following' etc - 25 comes with a sense of differentiating, breaking 'free' of the collective to say one's piece without consideration of, or ignoring, consequences - and so assert what one personally believes. This 'standing up' in a crowd reflects the 'disentanglment' from the bonds that tie you to the collective.

ICPlus 25/6 gives "An attitude of non-involvement moves one to make a mistake. To fix the problem stop the movement."

)

As I have commented before, the interpretations of line change reflects an actual state just as 'valid' as a hexagram in that both unchanging hexagram and changing hexagram each reflect a dodecagram. The change in a hexagram reflects a 'distortion' of that hexagram towards the description of the hexagram derived if we made the change but not necessarly completing that change.

Thus 17/6 reflects hexagram 17 as an archetype that is 'shape-shifting', influenced by the qualities of 25 and that relationship is in fact reflected in a dodecagram that is compressed into a hexagram of 17/6. This means the shape-shifting is an exaggeration AWAY from the archetype of 17 and as such can be interpreted as a WARNING. This is present in the line comment above where the focus is on the archetype of 17 running its course and any distortion (as in attempts to disentangle etc) will fail if attempted.

we can take this further by recognising that if 25 is a source of distortion and so movement 'away' from the archetype, so the proactive introduction of the properties of 46 (entangling) will 'fight' that distortion and so return us to the archetype. That said, we need to be wary of the intensity of that 46 or else we will distort 17 again by becoming too entangled and so distort the 'belief/following' aspect of 17 to be an extreme form! ;-)

Alternatively the focus is on an actual change of 17 to 25. That is a 'transcending' event and so more positive or more so the 25 reflects the 'escape' from the 17, the 'better context' seeked. This seeking can be:

(1) stepping backwards, as in 'anything but here!' - this can get tricky in that as you walk backwards you cannot see where you are going and could step into 'hell'! ;-) (reactive perspective).

(2) stepping forwards, seeing where you are going, choosing, encouraging the change, 'the grass is greener' process. (proactive perspective).

Chris.
 

tashiiij

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hmmm chris. so option 2, the proactive stepping forwards, would be informed by 46?
 

chrislofting

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Tashiiij,

you wrote:
> hmmm chris. so option 2, the proactive stepping forwards,
> would be informed by 46?
>

??. oh I see, .. yeh I suppose you could interpret it like that where the 'grass is greener' favours a need to get more entangled. (I was talking in general about the change differences, not just specifics to 25 etc):

46 - "SHENG : go up; climb step by step; rise in office; advance through effort; accumulate; bring out and fulfill; lit: a measure of fermented liquor, ascension as distillation."ERANOS p562

Note that to transcend means no ability to reverse the process. A transition on the otherhand allows for reversal as in water expressed as ice, liquid, steam etc

IOW the THUNDER base is more transcending, more immediate change, the WIND base is more cultivating, more time needed (and so the focus on 'step by step' of 46) Thunder IN wind is reflected in 32, the focus on commitment.

Chris.
 

gene

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Tashiiij

So much here depends on the question or the reason for the query, but since you mentioned, "falling into error," one thing that comes to mind is our relationship to the sage, or the Yi. Often when a student approaches a teacher, such as the I Ching, he/she needs to prove his sincerity first, otherwise it is the teachers time wasted on a not serious student. The sage has left the troubles of the world behind him, and as such, possibly has retreated to mount Chi. The teacher does not come to the student, the student comes to the teacher. Here the teacher, (on the mountain, where he can view the valley below, and see the great eternal truths), is intent on following his peace, but the student is not to be put off, and in showing his sincerity, and disentanglement, (hex 25) the teacher is moved and an eternal bond is sealed.

Gene
 

tashiiij

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Gene thank you for that. It is the binding that gives tension to the line. How to interpret.

One of the buddhist *incalculable*'s is the effect of a Buddha on the world. One cannot quantify the effect. It has no size or dimension. It is beyond those qualities. But one thing, it's benefit for sentient beings is immeasurable. That is why a teacher would stay. When they could chose to just go off. One lucky student is good for all. Im sure there must be at least one lucky one out there somewhere. Whadooya say, Gene?
 

tashiiij

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Also, Frandoch, thank you for posting! Must admit that I hesitate heeding translations that give advice rather than translate the image in the changing lines. Been burned!!! I know Stephen Karcher has many translations out now, and I do look at them... so thank you.
 

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