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Can Yi be wrong? 51.2 > 54

JoeCampbell

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Dear Everyone

This is not actually a request for help, it's more me relating an experience in an attempt to understand it. Ok, well I guess that is a request for help! Here goes:

Yesterday I was to meet with my boss prior to our attending a meeting with a prospective client. They had shown some interest and we wanted to take the conversation further and see if we could get them to commit to using our services.
While waiting for the arrival of aforementioned boss, I asked Yi to "Please give me a picture of this meeting we are about to attend" and back came 51.2 > 54....

Well, as we know, 51 = Shock, startling, shaking, motion, thunder and line 2 talks of financial losses that will, despite the loss be regained in 7 days.
Relating hex (me, presumably in this case) is the Marrying Maiden 54 - "undertakings bring misfortune" "a warning about a situation or person" and so on.

All of which sounds like something of a double-whammy when you're just on your way in to a meeting with a major (admittedly) financial institution.

What actually happened was that we were met with a series of intelligent questions, entered in to a good dialogue with the result that they asked us to design a training program for them! To my mind the diametric opposite of Yi's point of view.
This baffles me - what was Yi trying to tell me?

There might be a temptation here to say that I changed my behaviour in the light of the reading and that this averted the shock. But I didn't, I was always going to be no. 2 in the meeting, not say a huge amount and let the boss run the show. Which is exactly what happened.

Been puzzling over this for the last 24 hours because it's shaken my faith a bit - so any interpretations/discussions happily entered in to.

regards
Michael
 
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E

Endless

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What actually happened was that we were met with a series of intelligent questions, entered in to a good dialogue with the result that they asked us to design a training program for them! To my mind the diametric opposite of Yi's point of view.
This baffles me - what was Yi trying to tell me?

Hi Michael !
Which rol did you play in the dialogue ?
Maybe some details like this one could enlighten your perception of the answer ?
Nice day,
Endless
 
M

mirian

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While waiting for the arrival of aforementioned boss, I asked Yi to "Please give me a picture of this meeting we are about to attend" and back came 51.4 > 54....

I am assuming that was a typo and you mean line 2. Anyway, what I have noticed sometimes when I ask questions like that -on the spot- is that the reading reflects a bit too much of my worries, maximises a bit the tension in the air, and hexagram 51 seems a little too dramatic for a business meeting to discuss a project of some sort, doesn't it? But, apart from that, line 2 makes me think if it has taken your company a little while to sell this training program, maybe? Or perhaps how many times have you guys been to meetings like this one and getting no result? It might be reflecting past losses paving the way for gain. And this time it has just felt easy, coming to you just as though you hadn't pursued this all along.

Just a thought.
 

Tim K

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You have climbed 9 hills, up and down (made it through a series of questions) and then the proposal of marriage (54) followed.
Quite literally Yi has described the situation to you :)
Sometimes it's just the words of the line and nothing else.

On a sidenote, it could mean that this client will think and change his mind, and tries to renegotiate 9 times before he agrees to make the payment.
 

Liselle

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I was busy typing away to myself, trying (and failing) to make sense of this reading, and then I read Mirian's post two or three times. :) I think maybe she's onto something (if it agrees with real life).

But, apart from that, line 2 makes me think if it has taken your company a little while to sell this training program, maybe? Or perhaps how many times have you guys been to meetings like this one and getting no result? It might be reflecting past losses paving the way for gain. And this time it has just felt easy, coming to you just as though you hadn't pursued this all along.

Is that true at all? Have you/your boss/your company met with several prospective clients in the past and failed to get their business, until this time?

Sometimes Yi can do these sorts of things with tenses, reaching back into the past and then bringing it into the present. I think I've seen it with multiple moving lines, but here maybe it did it all in one line.

Hexagram 54 - The Marrying Maiden - contains within it the idea that the second wife (aka your company) eventually gives birth to the important heir (this contract).

Also, Alfred Huang translates the "hills" phrase as "[c]limbing over nine hills." (Emphasis mine.) That's a little bit different from climbing up nine hills - it implies more ups and downs, like a roller coaster.(And climbing up and up and up might be more hexagram 46.)

Does that make any sense?
 

JoeCampbell

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Dear Endless, Mirian, Ashteroid and Lisa

Thank you all for taking this one on! And yes, it was a typo in my text, the changing line is 2.
Following your observations I revisited the history of this client (more accurately, potential client) to see if there could be clues there. But before I go there, let me answer a couple of your questions.

I have only been with my present employer for a couple of weeks, this was my first client visit.
And yes, for that reason, there was a certain tension in the air - I am currently very aware of what I don't know when I am in these situations.

This was only our (my company's) second meeting with the client so the path to this point has been relatively smooth, and definitely not as convoluted as some others. Interestingly, boss and I had a long meeting with a client today where the relationship has been very slow to build and where, even now, after all our efforts, we may get dropped at the last minute.

So back to 51.2 - I think it is the 51 that struck me, why get "Shocking" when there was absolutely nothing shocking about the meeting? Mirian, Ashteroid and Lisa, yes I think there may be something there - naturally our company pitches for a lot of things and not everything comes home (ups and downs) and maybe, just maybe this will drag out even longer as the decision maker was heading out on holiday directly after the meeting...

Either way, I will let you know how this does pan out. For my own learning, I think this points to the need sometimes for a much broader view of the hexagrams and lines and especially, as Mirian says, when it is an "in the moment" kind of reading.
Thank you all again and more anon

Michael
 

Liselle

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Hi Michael,

If you click on the "Edit Post" button beneath your original post, you can fix the typo, and put a note underneath explaining the edit. That will help people who read this in the future.

I think this reading is still confusing! Before I wrote what I ended up writing, I thought the relating hexagram might represent you (you were the junior person there, with very little influence or control, similar to the "marrying maiden" in the hexagram). With that as an anchor point (hexagram 54 = you), I dreamed up various ways line 2 could describe a meeting: your boss getting an emergency phone call and having to leave you (the brand-new subordinate) in charge...the failure of whatever tech-y presentation gizmos you may have been relying on...important papers being left behind...things like that, where there would clearly be an element of danger and a feeling that all was lost.

But nothing like that happened. I don't have much experience with this line, but just reading it I think it's a stretch to imagine getting it for the normal sort of tension everyone always feels before an important meeting?

I also considered that, in addition to "shock," hexagram 51 can mean simply "arousing" in a more benign sense. I've gotten it to tell me to rouse myself off the sofa and hurry the heck up, lest I be late. And since 51's trigrams are thunder over thunder - some people enjoy thunderstorms and find them exhilarating. I could see that applying to a meeting - being keyed up and energized in a good way. But how would the line fit that, with the danger and fear of loss?

I no longer think it means what I ended up writing about, either. I think it could - I think Mirian's idea is an excellent way to tie 51.2 to a business situation - but I no longer think it fits this. Again, I think it would have to be more obvious, something more intense than "naturally our company doesn't get every contract it pitches for." No one ever does. Maybe if the stakes were particularly high - if your company desperately needed this contract to keep afloat or something - but that doesn't seem to be true.

So maybe the line is describing the future? I'm a little confused - your company actually doesn't have the contract yet? In your first post, you said, "they asked us to design a training program for them," but then you said that their key decision-maker has left town...if things aren't actually settled, maybe that's what the reading is about.

Please do let us know what happens! I think this is a really interesting reading - thank you for posting about it. :) And best wishes in your new position!
 
M

mirian

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just maybe this will drag out even longer as the decision maker was heading out on holiday directly after the meeting...

Thanks a lot for your feedback. You see, this detail that has now emerged - that whoever is making the final decision on buying your company's program- went on holiday straight away .... that - if I worked for your company- would have been a bit of a shock for me :eek: What if the decision maker has a change of heart while enjoying a Caribbean sunshine ? :D

Looking forward to an update :bows:
 

JoeCampbell

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Thanks Lisa - I've edited the original question as you suggest. We wrote to them thanking for the meeting and asking what the "next steps" might be. As I said, I'll let you know.
 
S

svenrus

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Thunder isn't necessesary negative or shocking in an unpleasant way. The trigram (here doubled) has among other aspects Spring/East and the symbolic meaning of East is '.. the place where a man receives orders from his master'. Moreover I've once read some place that Thunder means music as does Wind/Wood; Thunder awakens, 'God comes forth in the sign of the arousing'....
[Quotes from Wilhelm/Baynes II]
 
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Liselle

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Svenrus, yes, I do see what you mean about thunder and hexagram 51 in general; it's just harder to see line two that way (at least for me).
 
S

svenrus

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Yea, it's one of those lines which raises more questions than it gives answers...
"Risk and danger, thunder brings,
Perhaps one loses cowrie-strings.

- Climbing the Nine Mounds, do not pursue,
there'll be restoration in seven days.
- "
[Richard Rutt's translation]

Cowrie-strings were payment-tools in ancient China I've read; importet from The Indian Ocean Islands and not naturally to be found in China, thereby.
According to the Nine Hills I've started a thread 4' of february this Year:
Here
.

But lookin at the two lower/inner trigrams one will find that (with a changing line two) the trigram Thunder (in hex. 51) leads to the trigram Lake (in hex 54): " it gives men joy in the sign of the joyous " (Wilhelm/Baynes book II). Whether this evolution causes the phrase: there'll be restoration in seven days I can but only guess.
 
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JoeCampbell

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Dear All

One month has passed and I promised I would return with an update to this post. So here it comes.
The potential client said they were interested in a kind of joint venture (co-designing a training program) and we set to work making a proposal for that, sent it off and awaited a response.
None came, so yesterday I called to enquire about progress.
They replied that they do not have the budget necessary for the idea we put forward, and certainly not for the trainees they had originally had in mind. However, they would like to talk again in 2 weeks to see if we could perhaps assist with another project/group, probably in 2016.

So there you have it. A longer process than originally hoped.

All the best
Michael
 

Liselle

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Thanks for updating, Michael. :)

I just had 51.2 yesterday - I was filling out some forms online, got to a point where I thought I was almost finished, clicked to the next page - and was confronted with what seemed to be yet another voluminous form. I wailed to Yi about it (not for a constructive reason, just out of exasperation) and Yi told me 51.2.4 > 19.

It turned out not to be so bad. I only had to fill out a small portion of the voluminous form (there were instructions in it which said if such-and-such was true, stop).

(I think line 4 was just to tell me not to get bogged down.)

Am still not sure what "climb up the nine hills" means. That there are more/several hills you must climb before you get where you're going? Or that you need a broader perspective (once I actually looked at the form, I saw it was less work than I thought)?

In your example - I think you're saying they asked your company for a proposal, you wrote one, and then they said they didn't have the budget for it. That seems like something they might have known beforehand :rolleyes: ? They still want you to work with them, which is good...am mentioning this because I'm wondering if that sort of "starts and stops" is in the reading somehow. Maybe that's the nine hills?

In my case, I'd already climbed quite a few hills with the online forms (they weren't very well done - you'd click on big "Submit" buttons, which you thought meant you were finished, but you weren't. The buttons should have said "Next" instead of "Submit," I think). By the time I cast 51.2, I really was almost finished, so maybe the nine hills were in the past tense in my reading.
 

emiliana2010

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Dear All

One month has passed and I promised I would return with an update to this post. So here it comes.
The potential client said they were interested in a kind of joint venture (co-designing a training program) and we set to work making a proposal for that, sent it off and awaited a response.
None came, so yesterday I called to enquire about progress.
They replied that they do not have the budget necessary for the idea we put forward, and certainly not for the trainees they had originally had in mind. However, they would like to talk again in 2 weeks to see if we could perhaps assist with another project/group, probably in 2016.

So there you have it. A longer process than originally hoped.

All the best
Michael

Hi Michael,
I wonder what has been the result of the meeting held after two weeks. I think it's very important. Could you let us know?

All the best!:)
 

Liselle

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I'm glad Emiliana resurrected this thread, because upon re-reading I have another idea. Sometime relatively recently, I made a note to myself about hexgram 54, that it might at times mean something is just not a priority, as the second wife isn't a priority in the household.

Michael, do you think that might help explain what happened? The prospective client asked your company to do stuff. You took that seriously, and at face value - if they took those steps, you figured they'd take the steps that logically follow - awarding or not awarding a contract. A leads to B leads to C.

But suppose in the larger scheme of their business, this wasn't a priority? Maybe this was more-or-less a "just looking" sort of thing on their part? They "aroused" your company (51) - got you all stirred up and busy - but there was no real urgency for them?

51.2 might simply be advice for you to adopt that sort of perspective. Take it in stride ('up and down the nine hills'?). It does seem your company has at least made the list of people the client would consider working with in the future.

Another aspect - Bradford Hatcher translates 51.2 this way:

'The shock comes with adversity
A hundred thousand times (one) loses possessions
(And) scrambles up the nine hills
To not give chase
(Means) seven days to gain'


The words in parentheses are words Brad added himself for meaning; the rest is his direct translation.

Look at the last two lines:

'To not give chase
(Means) seven days to gain'


Brad is saying you'll gain seven days if you don't give chase. Versus there will be gain on the seventh day.

I don't have enough personal experience with this distinction to have a firm opinion, but as I understand Brad's point, this isn't a prediction of gain in the near future; it's advice for saving yourself time and effort. Save energy by not chasing after things (or worrying about them).

Also, the fan yao - which is not your answer, but, as Brad explains here, can be used "for clues to the meaning of the original changing line".

In your reading, the fan yao is 54.2:

'With one eye, can see.
A hermit’s constancy bears fruit.'


Again, the idea of perspective, and a detached sort of constancy.
 

steve

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Hi

To me the answer is 51.2 that they didnt get what they wanted however they are still able to do business and should try to slowly get back what they were orginally going for, like in smaller increments or other products, I think thats the advice but whether thats what happened or not is a different matter, I think what the meaning was in not to give chase was like dont hassle them, dont keep ringing or emailing, just be patient and you will get a chance.
I have found 51 in business to be something good or something bad you dont seem to know. However I think it was interesting that line did say they would lose something and they did.

When ever someone says they are going on holidays just before closing a deal i have found to be a non event for some reason just feels like bad luck every time. I have even said no we do this now or I will need put something new forward when you get back.

Would be interested to read the follow up.

Steve
 
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How to Consult the Yi , what's most helpful?

This thread raises the question, what is the most helpful way to consult the Yi?
What if you had asked about the business meeting, "What attitude will be most successful for me to take in regard to this meeting? " How would the answer have landed in that case? Rather than asking, I mean, about an external state of affairs that has so many variables that the answer given might have to be stretched to make sense?

I have changed my approach to the Yi, in framing my questions. I ask simply, "What is the best attitude to take towards X". I find that if I read the Yi as reflecting my own state of mind -- or my own filter for experience -- the responses allow me to create a dialogue with myself, to come to the truth about what to do.
For instance, I asked today, "What is the best attitude to take towards situation Z? " I received 5u, waiting. And that made sense. Now, If I really believed, intuitively, that it is now the time for forceful action, I would follow my intuition, while seeking another way in which it might be advisable to "wait" . I will never allow the Yi to override my intuition, -- only to enhance and put me in dialogue with it.
 
M

mirian

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I believe that the Yi answers the questions as they come, no matter what. I do accept that some questions can lead to answers that are more straight forward and easier to interpret. However, after years of asking all sorts of questions, in all sorts of circumstances, I cannot see myself trying to format a question while I am actually establishing a mental connection to the Yi to do my readings. Again, this is my very personal view, as I strongly believe that the Yi will get back to you, whatever your question is.
 
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I believe that the Yi answers the questions as they come, no matter what. I do accept that some questions can lead to answers that are more straight forward and easier to interpret. However, after years of asking all sorts of questions, in all sorts of circumstances, I cannot see myself trying to format a question while I am actually establishing a mental connection to the Yi to do my readings. Again, this is my very personal view, as I strongly believe that the Yi will get back to you, whatever your question is.

Hi Mirian, that's a good point.
In my experience, when I ask the Yi a question, in anxiety over what will happen, I seem never to get a straightforward answer. So rather than trying to make the reading somehow fit, I find it's more reliable to ask about my own attitude and state of mind.
But, I like what you say about spontaneity-- that the questions be spontaneous and natural.
 
M

mirian

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Hi loverofknowledge,
I might be totally wrong, but it's just because the Yi and I have gone through a lot together :D going back the years quite a bit ;)
 
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Yours sounds like a relationship of mutuality, dialogue, and trust! even better than having a dog, or on the same level...

Example of what I mean, about my process:
Today I asked, "What's the best approach today to my career" ?
I received 55.5 to 49,
which was absolutely perfect, since I had a new meeting with
a colleague, as the possible start of some new ventures
Just an example: this reading resonates for me, while if
I asked for a prediction, "how will the meeting go," I expect
I might not have received such a straightforward response,
and my own mind-set might have been more anxious.
 

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