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Can't understand my feelings -> 56.2.5.6 > 28

Arasca

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So a while back I made a thread about a day I was out with some friends and what I thought was normal ribbing turned out to hurt the feelings of two of them, and how bad I felt about it. At the time, I wasn't sure I had offended one of them; he sent me a message afterwards, but it wasn't at all clear if he was apologizing for some of the things he'd said to me before, or if he was telling me I'd made him feel bad. I admit, at the time, I spoke my mind under the guise of ribbing, and said some things which I hold to be true, but are not flattering or nice to hear.

The thing is, we went out for a bit, in a very messy and complicated relationship, during the end of which he said a great deal of things that hurt me very, very much. He never apologized for saying them, despite the fact that I was clear with him that he'd hurt me a lot, and how difficult it'd be to even be his friend when I felt he still thought those things about me.

After a lot of months, we've grown close together again, (I wrote about it in another thread) and today we were having a great conversation when he tells me he can't participate in an activity I was organizing because he still felt uncomfortable over the ribbing I'd done.

This time I apologized profusely for doing that, and he said he felt alright now, and that it was fine. However, I can't understand if I have a right to still be mad at the fact that he also said some hurtful stuff which he never apologized for, and yet I am the one that has to feel bad and apologize.

I can't understand how I feel, so I asked the Yi: "What do you think of what he said and how it made me feel?" Should I feel bad, angry? Is feeling angry unwarranted, feeling bad how I should feel? Is what he said prepostrous?

The Yi answered 56.2.5.6 > 28.

I'm stumped by the traveler in this context, but the idea of the ridgepole sagging in 28 makes me think of my own self control in trying to not stirr up trouble by bringing up those old issues again. Most of the lines in 56 seem to be positive. Maybe it's reflecting how, when he told me that, I went from feeling happy that we were rekindling our close friendship (which I still think we are) to feeling completely out of context, alienated.

Would anyone here care to give me an alternative interpretation? :confused: :confused:
 
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diamanda

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Hi Arasca,

The fact alone that you're brought to a position where you don't know how you should feel shows a case of someone manipulating you. You instinctively know that you should feel angry (you should indeed - the guy never apologised for his bad behaviour) but you're tricked into believing that you are in the wrong (he takes advantage of your desire for him and leads you to believe you're the one who should apologise, and repeatedly so!). This is a very common manipulating technique - the one who is in the wrong dumps all blame on the innocent person. But anyway, to your reading.

What do you think of what he said and how it made me feel?
56.2.5.6 > 28


56.2 - he never saw you as girlfriend material, just as a temporary 'servant' in his life.
56.5 - in relationship readings I call this the one-night-stand line - so, again, not a proper relationship.
56.6 - this shows a very arrogant person who behaves horribly - you said it was short, and he hurt you loads.
28 - the situation is too unequal, too unbalanced. There's too much masculinity. His behaviour is too macho, too aggressive, and this makes you feel way too heavy and unbalanced in your heart. 28 has a very 'unbearable' feel to it, and because of the extreme weight it compels us to action. However, action taken during a 28-type situation, is not wise and well-thought action, but rather panic action in an extreme situation.

How can you have a 'close friendship' (or relationship) with someone who never apologises for bad behaviour, and on top of that doesn't even allow you to feel resentment over his bad behaviour? Your heavy heart is telling you the truth: the situation is far away from being a 'happy rekindling' I'm afraid. On the other hand, 28 also describes a male who, having shut out the female out of arrogance and aloofness, he is then feeling way too alone.

How about you ask a question like "what can I do to place myself in a better position regarding him"?
 

Arasca

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Diamanda, thank you very much, your post was incredibly enlightening. Before, I would try to justify his behavior, but after careful consideration, I realize it is manipulating. He might not be doing it conciously, but by constantly making me feel guilty over my actions towards him (wanting to be with him, affirming our closeness, having sex with him), he is making me apologize and grovel for things I shouldn't have to apologize at all for... it's even sickening how I am not even clear if I should feel angry or not.

28 also describes a male who, having shut out the female out of arrogance and aloofness, he is then feeling way too alone.

That sounds a lot like him. The day after I apologized to him, I saw him at uni and hung out with him and a few of my friends. One of them, that knows of what happened between the guy and me, said: "he was close when HE chose to be; when you got close to him, then he backed away."

The really stomach-churning thing is that part of me wants to "earn" his trust and closeness, and the level of affection he had for a brief period of time for me (right at the beginning of the relationship), even if I realize that: 1) I don't need to "earn" someone's affection 2) A relationship doesn't have to be this way 3) wanting this makes it hard to move on.

How about you ask a question like "what can I do to place myself in a better position regarding him"?

I asked precisely this question and got 10.2.4 > 42

It describes how difficult of an endeavor it is (10), but reaffirms that my strategy should be to put distance, work on my own pursuits diligently (10.2). I think 10.4 again tells me how difficult it will be, but if I can be cautious, a reassurance: "good fortune".

I like how Hillary's comments on hex 42 relate:

When you are blessed, it is good to respond with purpose and movement: participating in the increase, pouring more in, you receive more in return. Let yourself imagine where you want to be, and take the first steps that commit you to going there. This is how to keep the momentum.
 
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diamanda

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It's impossible to tell if he's doing it consciously or not. It doesn't really matter how or why he's doing it, it's enough to know that he's doing it.

Mind you, I've seen 4-year-olds behaving in this manner, so I guess it's a game deap-seated somewhere in human nature. Nevertheless, power games are destructive, not constructive, and best avoided altogether.

what can I do to place myself in a better position regarding him? 10.2.4 > 42
I agree with your interpretation.
Treat him as you would a hungry tiger.
Stay away, and when you're near him use utmost caution, tiptoe on eggshells.
Hidden line is 25.4, "you can divine", I believe this means you've sussed it all out.
I believe 42 means that, although you won't get the upper hand, he will behave much nicer to you.
 

Arasca

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Thank you Diamanda! Can I ask you what the "hidden line" is, and how to get it out of a hexagram?
 
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diamanda

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I use the 'hidden line(s)' when there are either 2, or 3 lines changing.
Others call them 'transitional lines'.

In 10.2.4 > 42, the first line that changes is the 2nd.
If only this line was changing, it would lead to hex 25.
In your original answer, also the 4th line changes. So you look at 25.4 as the hidden line.
25.4 would result in 42.
You arrive at 42 via an internal route. The hidden line is 25.4.

Example with 3 changing lines, let's say 1.1.2.3 > 12
If only 1.1 was changing, the result would be 44. You go to 44 and look at 44.2.
If you only had 44.2, the result would be 33. You go to 33 and look at 33.3.
If you only had 33.3, the result would be 12.
You arrive at 12 via an internal route. The hidden lines are 44.2 and 33.3.
 

Arasca

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So these hidden or transitional lines are further "hints" that you can use to give the answer the Yi gives more context or meaning, right?

Thank you very much, this was very helpful!
 
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Freedda

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what can I do to place myself in a better position regarding him? 10.2.4 > 42

....

Hidden line is 25.4, "you can divine", I believe this means you've sussed it all out.
I believe 42 means that, although you won't get the upper hand, he will behave much nicer to you.
Diamanda, I'm curious how you came up with 25.4 as a 'hidden line' from a 10.2.4 > 42 cast?


Kind regards, David.
 
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diamanda

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Hi David,
Please look at post #6 further up on this thread, I explained it there.
 
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Freedda

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Hi David,
Please look at post #6 further up on this thread, I explained it there.
Thanks.

I think you're referring to what Bradford Hatcher calls the "Fan Yao" line, which is the hexagram (zhi gua) and line (fan yao) you come up with when you change each changing line one at a time - instead of all at once, which we then call the Related hexagram.

But for 10.2.4, I think you get:
fan yao (hidden line?) of 10.2 is 25.2 (not 25.4), and
fan yao of 10.4 is 61.4.

Is that about it? Regards, David.
 
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diamanda

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No I wasn't talking about the fan yao.
The fan yao is like a hypothetical mirrored line - what your answer is not.

Fan yao example (when one line changes):
If your cast is 1.2 > 13, then the fan yao would be line 13.2.

Hidden/transitional line example (when two or three lines change):
If your cast is 1.2.3 > 25, then 1.2 would give you hex 13; then at 13, you look at the next line, 13.3.
So the hidden line would be 13.3.
 
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Freedda

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... The fan yao is like a hypothetical mirrored line - what your answer is not.

Hidden/transitional line example (when two or three lines change): If your cast is 1.2.3 > 25, then 1.2 would give you hex 13; then at 13, you look at the next line, 13.3.
So the hidden line would be 13.3.

Well knock me over with a feather! And I thought I had at least heard of most ways of Yi divination ... But hidden lines? That's a new one.

I looked on the internet for more about these hidden or transitional lines but didn't find anything. Is there any references you can point me to so I can learn more?

Arasca asked, “so these hidden or transitional lines are further ‘hints’ that you can use to give the answer the Yi gives more context or meaning?” Is that about right?

And just so understand, I'll offer another example. I asked, how do I deal with the mess in my life and got 24.1.5 > 8. If you have access, I posted this in the Reading Circle forum, if you want to read it.

So, with my reading, my first fan yao line is 2.1 (from 24.1), so hidden line is 2.5, which leads us back to related hexagram 8. Is that right?

But I have a second fan yao in this reading, 3.5 (from 25.5), so does this mean I have a second hidden line, 3.1 (which also leads us back to 8)?​

Finally, you mentioned that the fan yao is “like a hypothetical mirrored line - what your answer is not.” I’ve never heard that definition before. In “Line Pathways” in the WikiWing section, they are described variously as: a quality, direction or tendency of the cast hexagram, what the cast line is about for you, etc. Bradford Hatcher has more limited take: that they sometimes share vocabulary, subjects, grammer, voice, tone and mode, so can be a guide in understanding the changing line text (but are not strictly a divination tool).

Kind regards, David.
 
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diamanda

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The term fan yao was coined by Bradford Hatcher. I personally very rarely use it, and when I do, I use it in the manner I said (only when 1 line changes, and I take it to mean what my answer is not). Other people might interpret it differently. I also found the transitional/hidden lines method at Bradford's writings - can't remember exactly where this info is located though. Check out his website, it's all somewhere there.

Arasca asked, “so these hidden or transitional lines are further ‘hints’ that you can use to give the answer the Yi gives more context or meaning?” Is that about right?

And just so understand, I'll offer another example. I asked, how do I deal with the mess in my life and got 24.1.5 > 8. If you have access, I posted this in the Reading Circle forum, if you want to read it.

So, with my reading, my first fan yao line is 2.1 (from 24.1), so hidden line is 2.5, which leads us back to related hexagram 8. Is that right?

But I have a second fan yao in this reading, 3.5 (from 25.5), so does this mean I have a second hidden line, 3.1 (which also leads us back to 8)?

Yes hidden lines give extra clues.
And yes you got it right, in 24.1.5 > 8 the hidden line is 2.5, which also leads to 8.
I wouldn't ever look at "a second fan yao", I only use it when one line only changes.

If you would really like to discuss this further, I suggest you start a thread in Exploring Divination, as we're hijacking Arasca's thread! :)
 
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oceangirl

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Before I even read your reading I thought this sounds like a passive/agressive man and diamandas interpretation reflects that I feel.
 
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Freedda

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Thanks diamanda, and sorry to Arasca if you feel I waylaid the thread.

Real quick, using the line transformations are discussed in Bradford Hatcher's I Ching vol I, p44; maybe he goes into more depth somewhere else.

Best, David.
 

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