Cast a hexagram for someone else?

[Willem D]

Recently I had a Zoom meeting with a friend and while we were talking my friend asked me to consult the Yi because of some problems he was experiencing. At that moment I didn't know whether I could cast the hexagram or if he should do it. So, to be sure I asked him to look for 3 identical coins, explained the procedure, and made him cast his own hexagram.

This made me think, is it possible to cast a hexagram for someone else? Is casting a hexagram something personal in a sense that the person asking has to do the casting or does it not matter?
Does anyone have experience with it?

 

[moss elk]

is it possible to cast a hexagram for someone else?

Yes, and to keep it simple,
stick to a question like what is best for him/her to do about this situation?

I've done it, it works fine.

Last time I did this, it was to help someone who had undergone some serious upheavel, they wanted to know what they should do next.

I cast 14.2 for them.
They saw the answer and immediately knew it meant they should pack up and move. They moved 1000 miles away to make a fresh start. This was for someone who had never read Yi, but they still understood.

 

[Trojina]

Recently I had a Zoom meeting with a friend and while we were talking my friend asked me to consult the Yi because of some problems he was experiencing. At that moment I didn't know whether I could cast the hexagram or if he should do it. So, to be sure I asked him to look for 3 identical coins, explained the procedure, and made him cast his own hexagram.

This made me think, is it possible to cast a hexagram for someone else? Is casting a hexagram something personal in a sense that the person asking has to do the casting or does it not matter?
Does anyone have experience with it?

I think you have to see how it works for you personally. I think for some people it 'works' and others it doesn't. I don't find asking for others works for me as I simply get answers for me and no I don't think, as some say, that the answer is for both of us since I get the distinct feeling this very phenomenon is telling me to stay close to consulting for me.

Some people find it fine to cast for others. I suppose I have done it for those close to me occasionally and have gotten meaningful answers but I don't think I'd cast far beyond those people I know personally.

I do think Yi hides itself at times, that's part of it's nature and it declares that in hexagram 4 and elsewhere I think.

The problem with getting non Yi users to cast coins is I find they seem to do it without thought this is because they don't know what Yi is...I can't explain exactly but when I've seen non Yi users cast in front of me I'm thinking to myself 'please can you not just throw these but also consult.' I think for me there has to be the orientation of consulting, asking a being, or however one chooses to think of Yi, and I find non Yi users don't often get that and just throw without truly consulting Yi. That is they may think they just chuck the coins and it's up to me to interpret whereas I think the truth comes from the sincere address to the oracle, asking, consulting. Someone can sit and just throw coins or they can be asking Yi and there's the difference.

 

[hilary]

I've found that yes, I can cast for someone else, it makes no difference to the answer. Where it does make a difference can be in their sense of 'owning' the reading. When you ask your question and cast the coins, see the lines emerge from what you do, it feels quite different from having 'the expert' produce hexagrams like a rabbit from a hat. So for this reason I always encourage people to cast for themselves.

Downside to this - while I haven't met any newcomers who'd 'just chuck coins' without really asking their question, a first encounter with the coin method can be pretty bewildering. The mental arithmetic can take so much attention there isn't enough left over for what it's about.

But when you are walking someone through it, you can counteract that - for instance, by getting them to cast while asking their question out loud and just making a note of coin faces as 'HHT' 'THT' etc. Then you can help them build the hexagram from that afterwards.

 

[Trojina]

Downside to this - while I haven't met any newcomers who'd 'just chuck coins' without really asking their question

That's because you are talking about people who come to you specifically for a reading or learning. I'm talking about people I'm just with, not customers/students just people. People I know who have no interest in Yi but want to know what it says about something.

By the time they have approached you they are already invested so they are going to be putting more in. With friends who just ask casually when you're out with them it's quite different.

 

[IrfanK]

Hmm. I've cast the coins for other people, including those who didn't have a clue about the Yijing, if they asked me to do a reading for them. It probably does help if you know them pretty well and, even better, if you know a bit about the issue they are asking about. But that's not essential. I would invite them to throw the coins themselves, but if they find it confusing or don't want to, then I'll do it for them.

 

[Trojina]

Also you may first need to do a preliminary course in how to throw coins without throwing them in such as way that they will career wildly off the table/into someone else's coffee cup/under the counter. It's surprising how an experienced Yinger knows the amount of force to use in throwing coins in many environments, it's something one just picks up. The inexperienced people I've seen throw appear to have no foreknowledge of the, well, I don't know what you'd call it, aerodynamics of the penny coin for example. I've had to say 'When I say 'throw them' I don't mean at me/I don't mean at the wall/ I don't mean on the floor - you just shake them....and..'... well all I can say is it helps to have a stack of the coins you are using on hand to account for natural loss and wastage.

 

[IrfanK]

Also you may first need to do a preliminary course in how to throw coins without throwing them in such as way that they will career wildly off the table/into someone else's coffee cup/under the counter. It's surprising how an experienced Yinger knows the amount of force to use in throwing coins in many environments, it's something one just picks up. The inexperienced people I've seen throw appear to have no foreknowledge of the, well, I don't know what you'd call it, aerodynamics of the penny coin for example. I've had to say 'When I say 'throw them' I don't mean at me/I don't mean at the wall/ I don't mean on the floor - you just shake them....and..'... well all I can say is it helps to have a stack of the coins you are using on hand to account for natural loss and wastage.

That's one of the reasons I prefer beads! But if I do use coins, I usually use a cup and shake the coins in the cup and plonk them on the table.

 

[hilary]

That's because you are talking about people who come to you specifically for a reading or learning. I'm talking about people I'm just with, not customers/students just people. People I know who have no interest in Yi but want to know what it says about something.

By the time they have approached you they are already invested so they are going to be putting more in. With friends who just ask casually when you're out with them it's quite different.

No doubt you're right.

 

[Trojina]

There speaks the voice of pacification

 

[moss elk]

It's surprising how an experienced Yinger knows the amount of force to use in throwing coins in many environments,

I earned my coin toss skills at 15 years old, pitching quarters.
(Do you know the game? Pitching pennies?)
Many a snack and soda did I win.

 

[hilary]

There speaks the voice of pacification

Just mature wisdom.

 

[Trojina]

No doubt you're right.

 

[Liselle]

Downside to this - while I haven't met any newcomers who'd 'just chuck coins' without really asking their question, a first encounter with the coin method can be pretty bewildering. The mental arithmetic can take so much attention there isn't enough left over for what it's about.

It's not just newcomers.

The inexperienced people I've seen throw appear to have no foreknowledge of the, well, I don't know what you'd call it, aerodynamics of the penny coin for example.

It's not just inexperienced people.

That's one of the reasons I prefer beads!

Those are two of the reasons I prefer software.

 

[Liselle]

In all seriousness, I get how coins, marbles, beads, etc. could feel like a better connection and software more distant. I manage to connect with clicks, I guess. But I don't particularly like software that spits out a hexagram in one click. It's too abrupt - as Trojina said, I don't feel like I've actually cast my reading, although I'm sure the reading is still good.

Also I think it's probably natural for most people when first encountering an oracle not to take it seriously. Really why would they, unless they're genetically predisposed to think it's possible to get answers from the universe from cards or spilling coins on a tabletop.

I certainly didn't. The earliest Yi readings I remember did nothing to disabuse that simply because I had no idea what I was being told. Now that I've learned about those hexagrams I understand those readings.

 

[Trojina]

In all seriousness, I get how coins, marbles, beads, etc. could feel like a better connection and software more distant. I manage to connect with clicks, I guess. But I don't particularly like software that spits out a hexagram in one click. It's too abrupt - as Trojina said, I don't feel like I've actually cast my reading, although I'm sure the reading is still good.

Actually if using software at all I only use the one click, I think the whole rigmarole of 6 clicks feels a bit superfluous for me.

Also I think it's probably natural for most people when first encountering an oracle not to take it seriously. Really why would they, unless they're genetically predisposed to think it's possible to get answers from the universe from cards or spilling coins on a tabletop.

I certainly didn't. The earliest Yi readings I remember did nothing to disabuse that simply because I had no idea what I was being told. Now that I've learned about those hexagrams I understand those readings.

It's like you are responding to someone who complained that when people first encounter Yi they don't take it seriously. No one has said that though so......

 

[Liselle]

Actually if using software at all I only use the one click, I think the whole rigmarole of 6 clicks feels a bit superfluous for me.

I can understand that, too. People's preferences are twisty and idiosyncratic, how very odd! (By which I mean, not odd at all.)

It's like you are responding to someone who complained that when people first encounter Yi they don't take it seriously. No one has said that though so......

I thought that's what you meant here, sorry for misunderstanding.

The problem with getting non Yi users to cast coins is I find they seem to do it without thought this is because they don't know what Yi is [etc.]

 

[Trojina]

Oh Dear....why would you pick that out to argue about. I'm talking about friends who have known I use Yi for years and ask for readings sometimes when we are out. They aren't people who have any problem thinking a book might answer them but they don't really know what Yi is or the way you may have to focus to address it, in a sense and for pity's sake don't start picking apart that sentence will you.

 

[Liselle]

Any chance we could chalk this up to threads-as-Flatland? Meaning words on a screen can all seem of equal import even when they're not, no tone of voice, body language, etc.?

 

[dfreed]

I think it works well either way, for the 'diviner' or 'divinee' -- the one who's interpreting or the one who's asking -- to do the casting.

As others have noted, I agree that if someone does the casting themselves it can give them a sense of connection or ownership with the reading. But I also think people can igonore or misinterpret the Yi's response regardless if they do the casting themselves or not. So perhaps having a sense of openness, intention, and honsesty is much more important than whom does the 'tossing of the coins.'

Also, some people use the Yi as a diagnostic tool for TCM (Traditional Chinese Medicine) and acupuncture and in these situations, the casting feels very appropriate being done by the practioner, since it is part of the diagnosis (though as with other situations, it could also be done by the querent - or in this case, by the patient).

Best, D

 

[IrfanK]

In all seriousness, I get how coins, marbles, beads, etc. could feel like a better connection and software more distant. I manage to connect with clicks, I guess. But I don't particularly like software that spits out a hexagram in one click. It's too abrupt - as Trojina said, I don't feel like I've actually cast my reading, although I'm sure the reading is still good.

Hmm. I'm more or less happy with my I Ching android app. I don't always take my beads out with me or when I go away, but I've always got my phone. And it's easy when you're out in public. But if I'm doing it for someone else, I'd really prefer to get them to play with the beads or throw the coins. Maybe it's theatrics. Yes, probably theatrics. I don't think it really makes any difference, but it gets them involved. And I think people do feel more involved with old analogue processes rather than new digital ones.

 

[Liselle]

Theatrics, a tiny bit of mood-setting, also to see how it's done. People already understand the idea of tossing a coin, that it's random, and the usual casting methods are even more random.

I'm more or less happy with my I Ching android app.

Which one do you use? I tried one a couple of months ago and wasn't very happy with it.

 

[IrfanK]

Which one do you use? I tried one a couple of months ago and wasn't very happy with it.

The Digital Illusion I Ching app. It's open source, no ads, you can set the probabilities of getting moving lines to either the yarrow stalk or coin method, and it provides slightly abbreviated versions of Wilhelm's commentaries.

 

[Liselle]

Am looking at it in the Google Play store. "Swipe up to confirm a line, down to erase it"??

 

[Trojina]

Maybe it's theatrics. Yes, probably theatrics. I don't think it really makes any difference, but it gets them involved. And I think people do feel more involved with old analogue processes rather than new digital ones.

I don't think it's theatrics it's just there's more space and time to have the conversation, to connect, to be with. I would never ask an important question on any of these confounded apps. I actually hate them, and I think they are the reason we have people posting 30 questions in one sitting in SR. If they had to throw coins I don't think that would happen. For one thing I think consulting really takes some psychic energy, it makes me tired, I can't cast more than 3 times with coins and I really feel saturated, I have more than enough input for a while. It's like having an in depth conversation, you need a break to absorb what's said.
With the online tools/aps it's just click click click.

Having said that I do use the single cast tool here sometimes and I've no doubt it is as relevant as a physical cast might be, indeed I've asked online then cast coins and got the same answer so that says something.

But to me the difference between casting with apps/online and casting with coins is the like the difference between writing texts and having a conversation. I'll text over smaller things but if I have something more important to convey I want to speak to the person. That is nothing to do with theatrics and nor is asking another person to physically cast theatrics in fact I think those online apps with their little animations are theatrics.

 

[IrfanK]

Am looking at it in the Google Play store. "Swipe up to confirm a line, down to erase it"??

Play with the settings a bit. You can do it manually, throw real coins, then enter into the app. That can be quite useful. Or you can cast each line automatically.

 

[IrfanK]

I don't think it's theatrics it's just there's more space and time to have the conversation, to connect, to be with. I would never ask an important question on any of these confounded apps. I actually hate them, and I think they are the reason we have people posting 30 questions in one sitting in SR. If they had to throw coins I don't think that would happen. For one thing I think consulting really takes some psychic energy, it makes me tired, I can't cast more than 3 times with coins and I really feel saturated, I have more than enough input for a while. It's like having an in depth conversation, you need a break to absorb what's said.
With the online tools/aps it's just click click click.

No argument from me. But then, I wear a wind-up clockwork watch. I write with a fountain pen. I lock my phone in a cupboard at around nine each night and don't turn it on until midday. I was even considering buying a second-hand typewriter, if only as a museum piece. Sigh. I'm a dinosaur. My time is nearing its end.

 

[Trojina]

No, I think you are probably ahead of your time as it's becoming more and more seen as desirable to live 'off grid' and get back to living in the moment and all that. Or maybe it's just all the youtube I'm watching giving me that impression.

 

[hilary]

I don't particularly like software that spits out a hexagram in one click.

Funny story... nor do I. I'd much rather have something that builds the hexagram line by line, so you can see it happening. So I commissioned Ewald to create a Clarity reading that does just that, and removed the old one-click javascript version from the website, and then...

Actually if using software at all I only use the one click, I think the whole rigmarole of 6 clicks feels a bit superfluous for me.

...got a lot of emails from people who agreed with Trojina about superfluous clicks. They were quite annoyed I'd taken their one-click reading away. I put it back. And this is why both are there.

But then, I wear a wind-up clockwork watch. I write with a fountain pen. I lock my phone in a cupboard at around nine each night and don't turn it on until midday. I was even considering buying a second-hand typewriter, if only as a museum piece. Sigh. I'm a dinosaur. My time is nearing its end.

​

 

[Trojina]

...got a lot of emails from people who agreed with Trojina about superfluous clicks. They were quite annoyed I'd taken their one-click reading away. I put it back. And this is why both are there.

Yay People Power !

We shall overcome
We shall overcooome
We shall overcome some daaaaaay